Re-watch thread ATL @ NE

[Ring 6]

I think all he is saying is that if Cooks and Brady had the same level of communication as Brady and Edelman they could have turned that into a bigger play.

But they couldn’t. Edelman would never change his route to let the safety get involved. The key to what they both see is the safety can’t agfect the route called and the corner is out if it. Why run a different route when the one you have called is wide open.
The safety had deep double in this play.

 

[Tony2046]

A out would not have been a good route against this defense. Both the FS and the CB were dropping into deep zones. An out would have cut into the CB's zone. It is a seam route because it exploits the seam between the zones.

Because the FS did and the CB did not drop particularly deep, we might have been able to complete a much deeper go route. We could not have know that pre-snap. That was about their post-snap depth of zone.

I question if we would even want to try that deeper throw even if we knew it option against their depth of zone. The reason it has a lower % is because:

1. The ball is going to be in the air longer, which gives the DBs more time to make a play on the ball.

2. It is a longer developing route, which gives the CB and the FS more time to react to the route.

3. Again, because it is longer developing, Brady might get sacked, get the ball knocked out, or the ball might get tipped/picked, etc.

I agree with all of this but I will say that if the Pats ever see this look again they may try a deeper route. Ishmael isn't a fast safety. Cooks would have blown past him. But they took the first down while up 20 in the 4th. Killing the clock was more important than getting more points. They burned 5 and 1/2 minutes and got a field goal off of this drive.

Damn that looks awfully tempting. A lot of space there.

 

[Tony2046]

But they couldn’t. Edelman would never change his route to let the safety get involved. The key to what they both see is the safety can’t agfect the route called and the corner is out if it. Why run a different route when the one you have called is wide open.
The safety had deep double in this play.

Yeah I know what you mean and I agree. And seeing how Brady threw it before Cooks was looking pretty much settles the issue. There is no way to know how the Safety plays that route presnap.

Side note: This reminds me of the wide open Hogan TD last season vs Ravens. They called that play based on what they had seen earlier in the game. Weddle had been paying too much attention to Edelman throughout the game. Hogan and Brady discussed changing the route on the fly or post snap IIRC. But that was something they had discussed on the sideline prior to the play. "If Weddle does this..." Kind of thing I'd guess. So I'd imagine if this was a first quarter play they could have done something similar.

I wonder if another Atlanta opponent will attempt to get a similar look. There's a lot of room out there for a big play.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

Belichick and his love for crappy left-footed punters. Is it really worth the one (maybe) fumble from the different spin versus actually having hangtime, distance, and the ability to actually pin it in a corner? Numbnuts Allen line drives it into the endzone half the time, anyways. The returner doesn't even field it for the chance to get a fumble. Ken Walter, Ryan Allen, bottom of the barrel.

What the heck does this have to do with film review? Allen had two punts for a 40 yard average. That's fine. In fact, take a look at this chart, and tell me if you see any correlation between higher punting average and winning:

National Football League Stats - by Player Category | NFL.com

 

[Ring 6]

You are missing my point. Change is presnap

There is nothing in the alignment that dictates a presnap change. In fact he is doubled

 

[Ring 6]

Hes breaking off nothing. Eithe he continues to run a go or a corner route.



Edelman is not Cooks.

You said he should do it because Edelman would.

Why would you change a route that worked to perfection?

If he runs a go he lets the safety get into the play.
If he runs a corner he lets the corner playing outside leverage have a chance.

What do you see PRESNAP that says he should change the route?
He is alone on that side after motion and there is a corner and a safety on that side of the field. The smartest call is what was called a deep slant rifled in before the safety can get there.

 

[PP2]

I agree that it's tough to see the hold but Marsh was being held. He was on the sideline side of the block and couldn't get away from the O lineman.

In this screenshot he's trying to pull away.

Marsh is a liability on the edge and often ends up in overpursuit which drives me up the wall. I think his problem in sealing the edge is improper two-gapping tech where he doesn't square up with enough leverage in time to shed to either side. You can see here that he has "force" responsibility but even if he's being held, he's already lost his ability to maintain outside leverage on the playside OT (sealing the edge) because his stance has ended up being too wide due to poor technique, so it's next to impossible for him to control the block enough to shed it or at least maintain outside leverage to funnel Ryan back inside.

 

[Tony2046]

Marsh is a liability on the edge and often ends up in overpursuit which drives me up the wall. I think his problem in sealing the edge is improper two-gapping tech where he doesn't square up with enough leverage in time to shed to either side. You can see here that he has "force" responsibility but even if he's being held, he's already lost his ability to maintain outside leverage on the playside OT (sealing the edge) because his stance has ended up being too wide due to poor technique, so it's next to impossible for him to control the block enough to shed it or at least maintain outside leverage to funnel Ryan back inside.

Good point.

I'll try to post a video of the play later tonight if possible. I'm on the road atm.

I understand his technique may be flawed and led to him being out of position but he was being held and was trying to pull away from the lineman as Ryan was escaping to the sideline. If he was not held he may have been able to limit Ryans run to a yard or so.

But your point is an interesting one.

 

[RobertWeathers]

A out would not have been a good route against this defense. Both the FS and the CB were dropping into deep zones. An out would have cut into the CB's zone. It is a seam route because it exploits the seam between the zones.
Because the FS did and the CB did not drop particularly deep, we might have been able to complete a much deeper go route. We could not have know that pre-snap. That was about their post-snap depth of zone.

The FS was 13yrds off the LoS. That is not deep and perfect opportunity for a long throw to the corner.

I question if we would even want to try that deeper throw even if we knew it was a possibility against their depth of zone. The reason it has a lower % is because:

1. The ball is going to be in the air longer, which gives the DBs more time to make a play on the ball.

2. It is a longer developing route, which gives the CB and the FS more time to react to the route.

3. Again, because it is longer developing, Brady might get sacked, get the ball knocked out, or the ball might get tipped/picked, etc.

We might as well run the ball then.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Dude you have to look at that play again.
The safety moves away on motion then moves back and is clearly and obviously moving to double cooks. Brady got the throw there before the safety could affect the play. If he waited and threw a deeper ball he brings the safety into the play.

The FS is sitting 13 yrds off the LoS. Way too shallow. Easy read. Tom has done that a million times.

 

[RobertWeathers]

There is nothing in the alignment that dictates a presnap change. In fact he is doubled

Go back and watch the secondary when TB12 sends DA in motion with 16 seconds on the play clock.

 

[RobertWeathers]

You said he should do it because Edelman would.

Why would you change a route that worked to perfection?

If he runs a go he lets the safety get into the play.
If he runs a corner he lets the corner playing outside leverage have a chance.

What do you see PRESNAP that says he should change the route?
He is alone on that side after motion and there is a corner and a safety on that side of the field. The smartest call is what was called a deep slant rifled in before the safety can get there.

The safety was too shallow and with Cooks' speed he was going past him. The CB was in a zone and useless.

 

[IcyPatriot]

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[Ring 6]

Marsh is a liability on the edge and often ends up in overpursuit which drives me up the wall. I think his problem in sealing the edge is improper two-gapping tech where he doesn't square up with enough leverage in time to shed to either side. You can see here that he has "force" responsibility but even if he's being held, he's already lost his ability to maintain outside leverage on the playside OT (sealing the edge) because his stance has ended up being too wide due to poor technique, so it's next to impossible for him to control the block enough to shed it or at least maintain outside leverage to funnel Ryan back inside.

But he isn’t pkaying 2gap on a pass rush.
The call may or may not been for him to sacrifice his rush by maintaining outside leverage. His job in 4th and 7 against a non mobile qb is likely to get pressure not stay outside to avoid a scramble. He wants to get past the OT not engage and maintain leverage.
His real problem is he needs to play with his head up and know where the qb is.

 

[Ring 6]

The FS is sitting 13 yrds off the LoS. Way too shallow. Easy read. Tom has done that a million times.

Go back and watch the secondary when TB12 sends DA in motion with 16 seconds on the play clock.

The safety was too shallow and with Cooks' speed he was going past him. The CB was in a zone and useless.

13 yards off the ball is normal safety alignment.
The safety moved to his leftvwuth motion then back to his right. The mismivrment could be viewed as an attempt at disguise or trap.
If the corner is in an underneath zone and “useless” then the safety has deep and that’s why you throw it before he gets there.
Nothing presnap says changecthis very successful play.

 

[PP2]

Good point.

I'll try to post a video of the play later tonight if possible. I'm on the road atm.

I understand his technique may be flawed and led to him being out of position but he was being held and was trying to pull away from the lineman as Ryan was escaping to the sideline. If he was not held he may have been able to limit Ryans run to a yard or so.

But your point is an interesting one.

I am going off memory alone as I don't have DVR or access to all-22 so I'm reliant on the discussion here and the clips that are posted in threads like this, so what I said could be subject to revision.

 

[RobertWeathers]

13 yards off the ball is normal safety alignment.
The safety moved to his leftvwuth motion then back to his right. The mismivrment could be viewed as an attempt at disguise or trap.
If the corner is in an underneath zone and “useless” then the safety has deep and that’s why you throw it before he gets there.
Nothing presnap says changecthis very successful play.

13 yds is way too shallow on Cooks side. Harmon plays 20 yds back which is a bit extra deep

The CB was way too up on the line and wide to the left to be a factor in coverage

Yes- it was a good play based on the coverage but it should have been more

 

[PP2]

But he isn’t pkaying 2gap on a pass rush.
The call may or may not been for him to sacrifice his rush by maintaining outside leverage. His job in 4th and 7 against a non mobile qb is likely to get pressure not stay outside to avoid a scramble. He wants to get past the OT not engage and maintain leverage.
His real problem is he needs to play with his head up and know where the qb is.

We'll see when Tony posts the clip. I'm going to err on the side of the call being conservative- i.e., a controlled rush in two gap tech where he is ready to seal the edge if necessary. This is something Ninko was pretty good at.

We've had a serious problem with plays that end up being QB keepers, all season long, so I don't think it's a straight up rush.

 

[Uptown]

Whose 97 on patriots? He required double teams that allowed other edge rushers to only have to win their 1 on 1 battles to get pressure on the QB. Great work by 97, he was getting a ton of push against the double teams..he is reall physically strong

Alan Branch

 

[Ring 6]

We'll see when Tony posts the clip. I'm going to err on the side of the call being conservative- i.e., a controlled rush in two gap tech where he is ready to seal the edge if necessary. This is something Ninko was pretty good at.

We've had a serious problem with plays that end up being QB keepers, all season long, so I don't think it's a straight up rush.

I have never in my life heard of a 2 gap pass rush. 2 gap is a run d technique.
I would be as shocked as anything I have ever heard out of foxboro to find out that in 4th and 7 against Matt Ryan we told our DE to hang out, not worry about pressure and play contain in case he tries to leave the pocket.
I’m not sure what the film will show regarding what his assignment was.