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2 things lost in this faux controversy


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PS, on the never-quit-ness and football IQ of Butler? Dang. Big role in locking down a divisional win based on those 2 traits.

Apparently the one thing that you don't want to do with Butler is make him feel like he's not playing up to snuff. Burned on the circus catch? He'll remember that rub-route. Down on his production for the season? He'll come up big when we need it. Okay, just 2 instances... but I think this is a tendency (like players being "clutch" on offense... but it might be especially activated when he's "looking bad" in general.) Maybe everybody has that gear and I'm isolating 2 instances that support its prevalence in Butler's game.


There's a reason why his nickname on the team is "Scrap". He plays 110% and through the whistle. It's like a track star who is taught to run PAST the finish line. Not knocking Gilmore, who certainly looks as if he plays 100%, but does it to the whistle.

The extra through the whistle 10% sometimes gets Butler in trouble. But sometimes that extra feistiness yields results. He also knew where to cover from his very first pre-season game as a UDFA rookie. I'm hoping Gilmore learns it by the 2nd half of this season.

.Does Butler have the natural ability of Gilmore? No.

.
 
You people are a joke..........HE GAVE UP!!!! PLAIN AND SIMPLE....Why oh why people try to either deny this or justify it is just beyond me. Am I saying the guy is the worst player in the world and does this all the time? No

I happened to be watching this play recently and it really struck me as odd that someone would give up so soon (especially when he is so close to the ball carrier). You rarely see this and I felt it relevant that since someone happened to bring up Butler's effort.

The video is absolutely beyond dispute though that he didn't give max effort. Go ahead, keep telling yourself he had ZERO play on Hogan. Not only is that NOT true it's crazy that you are just perfectly ok with him not even trying.

Are you people related to Gilmore or something? Why are people apologizing for him on this play? If your defense was 'this play was an anomaly then I'd accept that but to try to justify the play is silly'.....it's all in the video don't try to deny what your eyes are seeing just because he wears a Pats jersey now


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I can't see how what happened can even be called a fumble. It moved through the air from 1 hand to the other, never hit the ground. Butler dislodged it but the runner got control of it again, then landed on the pylon. Calling it a fumble makes no sense. If a runner were in the open and at the goal line tossed it from 1 hand to the other it would still be a TD.

You have to first recognize that the ball was loose as he transfered it from one hand to the other. There can be a controlled transfer but this was a forced transfer including a booble which is different than a controlled transfer. If you understand that than we move to step 2.

During his bobble he crossed the goal line. So now the ball is loose in the end zone just like he had dropped the ball and it had rolled into the endzone. ASJ did not drop the ball and the ball did not hit the ground but it was loose in the air because Malcolm forced it out. Because Malcolm forced it out as the receiver was going into the endzone the rule is different.

I am sure you agree if the ball is loose and the receiver regains control going to the ground it is still a catch, unless the receiver bobbles it and regains control out of bounds. ASJ regained control out of bounds so it was not a catch.

So this is where the unique situation comes in where it was bobbled going into the endzone. If a ball rolls into the endzone and out of bounds it is a touchback. And that is exactly what happened. The ball was bobbled as ASJ crossed the imaginary plane entering the endzone, ASJ then regained control in his other hand but he regained control out of bounds. And out of bounds inside the endzone. If he had regained control out of bounds before entering the endzone than it is an incomplete pass and a loss of down. But because he regained control out of bounds in the endzone it is an incomplete pass and a touchback and the Patriots get the ball.

Does that help?
 
Is there really anything more to discuss?:rolleyes:


You are on an Internet discussion forum and ask the question "Is there is anything more to discuss?". Pretty funny. If you don't like discussion maybe an Internet discussion forum is not the place to spend your time? Maybe? :rolleyes:
 
Because you're siting one example as proof of his overall mentality on the field. This is especially unfair considering players across the NFL don't give 100% on every play, including players on your team.

He's the new guy on your team and you're targeting him as the problem when it's communication breakdowns across the defense that have them playing so lousy.

All I'm trying to point out is that he GAVE UP ON THIS ONE PLAY!! I didn't think that was such a disputable or contestable statement.

I can somewhat respect responses of "this is not normally his style" because honestly I haven't studied him enough. If your disagreement is with me trying to insinuate that I'm blaming Gilmore for the secondary's communication problem then you are mistaken (read through my posts again, I don't try to make that claim).

It was simply meant as.....

OP: We should applaud Butler's effort in playing each play to the end (and then some).

Me: Good point, in fact, here's a play I came across recently of someone inexplicably quitting in the middle of a play despite being in a position to make an attempt.

(instead of a 'ya, that was odd' we have)

Crowd:
You don't know physics.

Would you rather he wait until Monday to berate his teammates?

Stop picking on the new guy.

You're naïve if you think players ever give up on plays.




Don't interpret any other agenda but to point out that he gave up on a play. Has he before or since, I don't know. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone that you people continue to defend his actions on that play despite such overwhelming evidence that he quit on the play. So either you are such huge homers that you defend anything a current Pats player does or has done, or you are trolling.

Let's take a page from "A Time to Kill" and do this..........

Watch that play again, and now, imagine the player is wearing a Cleveland Browns uniform and is not a current or former Pat player, would you STILL feel the same way?
 
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Because you're siting one example as proof of his overall mentality on the field. This is especially unfair considering players across the NFL don't give 100% on every play, including players on your team.

He's the new guy on your team and you're targeting him as the problem when it's communication breakdowns across the defense that have them playing so lousy.

You specifically disagreed with my last post that included a picture of GIlmore being so close to Hogan.

In that post I make zero reference to one play being an indicator of some overall trend or any insinuation that it in any shape or form has to do with the Pats current problems. So what specifically about that post did you disagree with?
 
I'm in such disbelief over the Gilmore apologists on this play that I have to post again to remind everyone what you are defending and perhaps educate you on the physics of the situation.

Look at this picture. Gilmore is SOOOO close to the play that part of his foot is not visible because Hogan's foot is blocking it. And no, that's not the goaline that Hogan has yet to pass, THAT IS THE 5 YARD LINE!!!!!!

Can you honestly look at this picture and say that Gilmore is better served to stop to berate teammates instead of finish out the play? I mean jeez, again, I am just dumbfounded by the lengths that people go to in order to create a contrarian point of view.

View attachment 18340

@QuantumMechanic . @archstanton543

By disagreeing to this post you must be saying one of two thing.....

1.) You deny that he was close to the play. (It would be dumb to disagree with this. The picture is all the proof you need).

2) You actually do think Gilmore is better served in that position to stop and berate his teammates.

Either way, both are crazy to me so I can't help but think you are trolling.
 
I didn't realize that Hogan was frozen and not moving near the 2 yard line. Gilmore definitely should have tackled him at that moment.

Even though we are on very different ends of this debate I can at least appreciate the humor in this response.
 
I didn't realize that Hogan was frozen and not moving near the 2 yard line. Gilmore definitely should have tackled him at that moment.

Yeah, and I didn't realize that Gilmore had the remarkable ability to turn his head and half his body around in 0.00 seconds while Hogan was not moving forward one inch, either.....:cool:

Perhaps he should have been at least focused on the guy instead of turning. The turn and the decision to do so, started before the picture.



Gilmore gave up with Hogan at the 10. He was in full turn mode in that picture at the 4

Did he not have plenty of time AFTER the play to glare at whomever he wanted to blame? Honestly - - - what was the rush?

Difference once again, between playing THROUGH the whistle (Butler) and playing up to (or almost up to) the whistle.

Once again, Butler does not have nearly the size, speed or natural ability. He makes up for it with his heart and his head.

If Gilmore can learn the Patriots system, he'll be fine. I am rooting for him.

.
 
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You are on an Internet discussion forum and ask the question "Is there is anything more to discuss?". Pretty funny. If you don't like discussion maybe an Internet discussion forum is not the place to spend your time? Maybe? :rolleyes:

Wait for...

"I think we can all agree that..."

and

"...period."

His style is well-suited for coming down from Mount Sinai with engraved tablets, but not so much for a back-and-forth on a bulletin board :)

Th' lovable scamp :D
 
Archstanton Disliked this post of a picture. :D

.

That's funny, but I would also 'dislike' a picture of Gilmore giving up after vehemently denying that he didn't give up.

He must get it out now since he's at a loss of words and is now throwing a tantrum of 'disagrees' and 'dislikes'. Honestly, I never intended to get into such a spat over something I thought was pretty black and white.

He's normally a good guy and I enjoy his takes. Perhaps just a bad week.

Like you, @shmessy, I'm rooting for Gilmore (and the Pats, obviously).
 
What was Gilmore supposed to go? Keeping following hogan, not get near him, but give you no reason to rip him?
He had no chance.
 
You are on an Internet discussion forum and ask the question "Is there is anything more to discuss?". Pretty funny. If you don't like discussion maybe an Internet discussion forum is not the place to spend your time? Maybe? :rolleyes:
The call was correct according to the rule. Based on that fact, there isn’t much to discuss

It would be one thing if the video didn’t clearly prove the correct call was made.

A discussion is a discussion. The fact that it’s an internet discussion didn’t need to be made
 
Wait for...

"I think we can all agree that..."

and

"...period."

His style is well-suited for coming down from Mount Sinai with engraved tablets, but not so much for a back-and-forth on a bulletin board :)

Th' lovable scamp :D
My nickname is “Moses”!

I don’t have a lot of patience for wasted words!:D

And you forgot “end of story!” ;)
 
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I was one of Mosi's Mooses once...a long time ago...in a distant galaxy
 
I was one of Mosi's Mooses once...a long time ago...in a distant galaxy
That’s even better than coming down from Mt Sinai!
 
My nickname is “Moses”!

I don’t have a lot of patience for wasted words!:D

And you forgot “end of story!” ;)

Yeahhhhh, well, I'm thinking that if you found that flattering, you might be missing a shade of meaning.

In any event, it's good that you're a good sport. You'd have to be, being wrong so often. :D
 
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