Report: Browns and 1st rounder for Garappollo (Maybe Yes or No or Who Knows)EDIT

[libra957]

Ok ok we get it, the pats will have to draft another QB.

 

[brdmaverick]

Right, look even though Jimmy may have been projected to be good, I still find it somewhat laughable that Bill traded out of conference because we were afraid the Browns would challenge our AFC supremacy........THE BROWNS

Let me phrase it another way. Let's say Jimmy G. does have the potential to be a Pro Bowl QB, what's more likely.....

1.) He uses his talent to turn the Browns into a title threat.

Or

2.) The Browns and their losing stench rub onto Jimmy and his career never flourishes.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

Lots of mental gymnastics here to justify missing out on the 4th overall pick, if this report is true.

For one thing, as mentioned earlier in the thread but you clearly chose not to read, no one thought it would be the #4 pick then. The Texans had lost Watt already but Watson was still healthy and playing well. The pick had an anticipated range of as high as 12 and maybe as low as 24. Watson then got hurt after the trade deadline and the Texans completely collapsed thereafter.

So at the time the trade was made, the supposed Browns "willing to offer" was a pick in the expected range of 12-24, versus the 49ers real offer of a pick with an expected range of 34-40 plus a backup QB with actual experience running the Patriots offense. The subsequent Watson injury plus Jimmy G and the 49ers playing better than expected, and the gap in reality wound up being a lot worse.

 

[CutiePie]

You were here when Brady took over for Bledsoe ...
Remember the ****storm we had in this forum?
The Bledsoe people outnumbered the Brady people 2-1 when Drew was healthy to play.

I was team Brady - was a tough team to be on back then.

its tough to be in the minority group sometimes.....especially when you are right

i know all about it

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the herd. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."----Nietzsche

 

[condon84]

For one thing, as mentioned earlier in the thread but you clearly chose not to read, no one thought it would be the #4 pick then. The Texans had lost Watt already but Watson was still healthy and playing well. The pick had an anticipated range of as high as 12 and maybe as low as 24. Watson then got hurt after the trade deadline and the Texans completely collapsed thereafter.

So at the time the trade was made, the supposed Browns "willing to offer" was a pick in the expected range of 12-24, versus the 49ers real offer of a pick with an expected range of 34-40 plus a backup QB with actual experience running the Patriots offense. The subsequent Watson injury plus Jimmy G and the 49ers playing better than expected, and the gap in reality wound up being a lot worse.

Browns offered a 1st round pick. Anyway you cut it, 1st round >> 2nd round. Unless we're doing common core math or whatever it is you're using to reason out that 2nd round is better than a 1st round lol.

 

[mosi]

It remains to be seen how good he is. I mean, he separated his shoulder after his first hard hit.

But the 4th pick in the draft is a massive upgrade over a middle 2nd rounder. You make that trade 9,999 times of out of 10,000. And we're talking about Cleveland here, a team that is not even in New England's division.

Hell, you can easily argue that Cleveland tagging the Steelers with an annual loss makes the Patriots' road to the Super Bowl easier.

This argument about deliberately taking less makes no sense to me.

I agree. We all forgot about how people thought he could have played last year but did not and hence, JB played with a broken thumb.

 

[fnordcircle]

"Sure Bobby Grier picked up Terry Glenn but Parcells wanted to draft Duane Clemons Marcus Jones Regan Upshaw Tony Brakens!"

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I think people need to realize this wasn't just a trade for the 2nd rounder - this was a trade for (what was at the time) a very high 2nd rounder AND the ability to obtain a backup quarterback that is good and already knows their system. That has a TON of worth. In my opinion, I don't think Bill would have traded for even a high 1st at that point in the season if it meant that he would basically have no backup QB - he'd be signing some veteran with no knowledge of the system at all. That's crappy and not a position Bill would ever want to put himself in.

Again, in my opinion - if SF wasn't willing to deal I think Bill would've just kept Jimmy through the rest of the season and let him walk in FA for the third round comp pick, rather than risk the entire season on Brady staying healthy the rest of the year with basically no depth at QB.

Let’s say Ben Roethlisberger retires this offseason. Real quick: who is the new second best QB in the AFC after Brady? This is an unbelievably weak conference at the most important position. Let’s say that you could turn back the clock to 1998. Would you take a first round pick and let Peyton Manning go to the Colts, or a second round pick and be assured he goes to an NFC team? Yeah...not a hard decision there.

 

[patsfaninpa]

When TB12 retires, the NFC is gonna win about 10 in a row.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

Browns offered a 1st round pick. Anyway you cut it, 1st round >> 2nd round. Unless we're doing common core math or whatever it is you're using to reason out that 2nd round is better than a 1st round lol.

Funny since you're talking to a math guy. Yes, while 10 may be a higher number than 9, taking both 9 and 2 together is greater than 10. Unless you really don't think that Brian Hoyer is worth the difference in the expected first round pick versus the expected second round pick, which is a reasonable position. But just analyzing one part of the deal isn't fair.

And additionally, the ultimate "value" that the Patriots are looking for is wins. Not draft capital, salary cap space, etc. Wins. Those all play a part in it, but there's more to wins than just that. The Patriots play the 49ers once every 4 years unless they meet in the Super Bowl. The Patriots play Cleveland once every 3 years and, if Jimmy G is as good as Belichick thinks he is, possibly up to once a season plus the playoffs. That could lower the team's annual win expectancy and could knock them out of the playoffs earlier and/or lower their seeding. Does the value in a player drafted at, say 18, exceed the value drafted at 37 enough to make up the difference?

Edit: Or what @Ice_Ice_Brady just said above.

 

[primetime]

Brian Hoyer isn't worth the difference between the 24th and 34th pick, even if we use the low end of the range for where the Texans could have been picking.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Brian Hoyer isn't worth the difference between the 24th and 34th pick, even if we use the low end of the range for where the Texans could have been picking.

Brian Hoyer
plus the knowledge that the deal would be done, on time
plus the advantage of JG not being in the AFC
plus the advantage of not angering Don Yee because you sent his client to football Siberia
plus starting what may be a close relationship with a straight-dealing front office in SF

All of those help bridge the gap.

Worst case was Brady getting hurt late, and with the SF trade, Hoyer would have us basically where Philly is now, competing but unlikely to win

 

[convertedpatsfan]

One other thing to consider is that it never actually says the Browns DID offer. Just that they were willing.

There are a lot of variables and we don't know the full extent of the discussion. But I could see a scenario where BB and Sashi went back and forth during the draft, with Sashi making promises and then after discussing with others, having to come back with counter proposals. Or maybe he tried to bluff BB into low compensation and overplayed his hand. We don't know.

But it sounds like BB didn't feel confident he could get a deal done with Sashi, regardless of what he promised. And with just a few days before the trade deadline, he had more faith in the 49ers.

When the Patriots ended up trading Collins to the Browns, that was on Monday, October 31. But Rapoport claimed there were trade talks even on the Thursday and Friday before, with the Texans and Eagles also involved. During this period, it is plausible Cleveland was also involved, and offered the best pick, but took forever to get the deal done. That may have also factored into this.

I don't know. But I don't think BB was trying to do right by Jimmy. I see him getting him out of the conference. But mostly, I think he had a total lack of faith in Cleveland for some reason or another. Which isn't surprising considering the absolute **** show of an organization they are.

 

[maineman209]

So, let's review ...

Here we have a Cleveland beat reporter who's named after a former planet claiming ...
... that he "made calls to several (unnamed, but presumably important) "league sources"
... cites his own article from November 4th stating precisely what the Browns did and what they wanted without stating how he knows all this for a fact (aside from referring to those same "sources")
... cites Wickersham's throughly discredited imaginary soap opera about mortal strife within the Pats organization as proof of .... something ... and subsequently refers to the text of that piece as "ESPN says" (!!)
... blithely states, "I know that Brown was willing to part with Houston's first-round pick and other goodies," without bothering to mention how he knows.

Well, eff me! Must be the gospel truth, then!

Sports reporters are skyrocketing up the list of professions that I despise.

 

[primetime]

Right, I mean "willing to" doesn't mean the offer ever landed on Belichick's desk. Could have been a purely theoretical discussion. Clearly the Browns were scrambling at the end to get McCarron.

 

[condon84]

Funny since you're talking to a math guy. Yes, while 10 may be a higher number than 9, taking both 9 and 2 together is greater than 10. Unless you really don't think that Brian Hoyer is worth the difference in the expected first round pick versus the expected second round pick, which is a reasonable position. But just analyzing one part of the deal isn't fair.

And additionally, the ultimate "value" that the Patriots are looking for is wins. Not draft capital, salary cap space, etc. Wins. Those all play a part in it, but there's more to wins than just that. The Patriots play the 49ers once every 4 years unless they meet in the Super Bowl. The Patriots play Cleveland once every 3 years and, if Jimmy G is as good as Belichick thinks he is, possibly up to once a season plus the playoffs. That could lower the team's annual win expectancy and could knock them out of the playoffs earlier and/or lower their seeding. Does the value in a player drafted at, say 18, exceed the value drafted at 37 enough to make up the difference?

Edit: Or what @Ice_Ice_Brady just said above.

Like I posted earlier, lots of mental gymnastics.

 

[Joker]

"Sure Bobby Grier picked up Terry Glenn but Parcells wanted to draft Duane Clemons Marcus Jones Regan Upshaw Tony Brakens!"

Brackens...Tony Brackens

 

[Ring 6]

One other thing to consider is that it never actually says the Browns DID offer. Just that they were willing.

There are a lot of variables and we don't know the full extent of the discussion. But I could see a scenario where BB and Sashi went back and forth during the draft, with Sashi making promises and then after discussing with others, having to come back with counter proposals. Or maybe he tried to bluff BB into low compensation and overplayed his hand. We don't know.

But it sounds like BB didn't feel confident he could get a deal done with Sashi, regardless of what he promised. And with just a few days before the trade deadline, he had more faith in the 49ers.

When the Patriots ended up trading Collins to the Browns, that was on Monday, October 31. But Rapoport claimed there were trade talks even on the Thursday and Friday before, with the Texans and Eagles also involved. During this period, it is plausible Cleveland was also involved, and offered the best pick, but took forever to get the deal done. That may have also factored into this.

I don't know. But I don't think BB was trying to do right by Jimmy. I see him getting him out of the conference. But mostly, I think he had a total lack of faith in Cleveland for some reason or another. Which isn't surprising considering the absolute **** show of an organization they are.

Remember there were also stories that the browns went home early and wouldn’t have been there to take the call, that someone said they confirmed with coaches. That’s as believable as the guy who got fired saying he would have done what people are saying he should have after the fact.

 

[Bruins29]

Like I posted earlier, lots of mental gymnastics.

How long are you going to cry about Jimmy being gone?

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Take a nap.