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Idle thoughts - Jimmy G, Cam and Stiddy

2021 Patriots Season:
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Sep 12th

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patfanken

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Some morning thoughts on the possibility of JG becoming a Patriot....and sadly why he's probably NOT.

1. While it makes little sense for the Niners to pay so much to get the #3QB prospect, I wonder if it makes a lot of sense to trade him
Here's why. The guy they are going to get will be either Lance or Fields . Both would really benefit from a gap year. So you go to JG and say.

Hey Jimmy, I know its a real blow to your ego to see us draft our QB of a future that your not part of.. But here's the thing son, frankly at this point your injury history makes you damaged goods. That's the reality. But this kid isn't gong to be ready for the 2021 season. So here's what I suggest. I will totally commit to you being the starting QB for the Niners for the 2021 season. We will rework your contract so you will get all your money for the 2021 season and will be able to be a FA for 2022. We have a solid team on both sides of the ball and you can have the kind of season that will rebrand your reputation. Work with the kid and we BOTH win in the end.

I really think that the above conversation is going to happen and how JG responds will greatly affect the possibility of him coming here. He can say

"shove it" but here's what I'll do." I'll rework my contract to lower the cap number, but like Mariotta, I want a no trade clause, so you don't ship me to [email protected] Houston or the like. Then make the best deal you can with this list of 4 teams I'd be willing to go to. (Pats, Boston, Foxboro, and NE) and we;ll call it a day. Better the kid come in with a fresh start and you can work your offense around his talents. Make it happen Lynchie"

OR far more likely he'll say, "that's fair John, it's probably for the best if we do it your way."

2. It seems the word on the street is that Shannahan wants Lance. IF that IS his pick, it makes losing JG for this season is not the best idea. However that being said, he COULD decide that playing the kid right away with a limited offense might be best for his development. IIRC he had Matt Ryan at the beginning of his career and he was a first year starter? This scenario seems a long shot tool.

3. I want you all to remember how we ALL laughed at the mental errors and erratic throws that Josh Allen made his first 2 years in Buffalo. Now it looks like he's going to be a top 5 QB for a lot of years in our division. (IMHO he is what those people enamoured with Lance hopes he can become) Even if JG gets to NE this season,, The Pats are NOT going to have the best QB OR even the 2nd best if Tua improves and Wilson is with the Jets. The AFCLeast is very quickly gong to become the Young Guns division with the Pats looking up at the Bills Jets and Dolphins (at least at the QB position.

But the lesson that should be learned is that ALL QB's take time to develop. Even the results of a couple of years snapshots is not necessarily what the guy will be down the road. Drew Brees had a couple of shaky years in SD even before the shoulder injury. But with the right coach and system he was a star. Brady was a "game manager" his first few years and didn't become a prolific passer until 4 or 5 years into his career.

For that reason, I'll be interested to see how Jared Stidham looks in TC. Granted he had a VERY tough year, both on the field and (reportedly) in the locker room in gaining his teammates trust. Lets see if he does what's necessary to regain that trust and improve his game to another level. Remember he REALLY hasn't had much of chance to show what he can do. Him running that west coast practice was a small start. If he were as bad as we have been led to believe then why has BB chosen to keep him around. That thought alone makes me not just dismiss him as camp fodder even if they draft a QB in the 3rd round.

4. All that being said, I'm starting to think that Cam is going to start the season at QB. I have NO doubt that he will be better this season for a LOT of obvious reasons. 2nd year in the system, a full TC, better skill position players, better OL, better defense. BUT the question is to what DEGREE will be be better. A 100% improvement would make him just an average starting QB. But that STILL twill likely win us a lot of games. But a 100% improvement when the bar was set so low last season is nice, but is it good enough.

So here is what I'd like to see at TC (and hopefully hear before that)' about Cam's progression.

a. He's lost 15-20 lbs. He needs to lighten up LITTERALLY. He was dead legged last season. He lumbered more tha he ran. He has to recognize that as he ages he needs to prepare his body differently than when he was 25. He no longer has to be a 250lb QB who flattens LB's and DB's So I hope to hear he's down to 230 or so and looks a lot quicker and agile. I wouldn't mind hearing that he's been seen down at the TB12 facility.s go

b. That he's throwing the ball with better footwork, rhythm and ACCURACY in TC.

c. That he's making better decisions. Getting the ball out quicker and with a faster release.

As this season progresses we don't necessarily need a "great" QB, we just need a good one. A guy who can move the sticks and manage the game. Whether Cam can make these radical changes from the way he's always played the game to the way he now NEEDS to play the game is huge question. I certainly don't know the answer, but I CANNOT dismiss the possibility that he can.

So assuming I'm right about JG not coming, what to the Pats do to upgrade the QB position long term. Well they draft one, but HOPEFULLY not with the first round pick. Assuming that all 5 guys are gone by the time #15 rolls around, the Pats are going to see the best positional talent that they have seen since they drafted Richard Seymour (take THAT Ron Borges) They will likely have their choice of a top 3 DLman, LB, OLman, snd maybe WR. It would be hard to screw that one up. My personal favorite (at least in March) is Micah Parsons. If he's still there I don't think Bill will be able to pass on him. A fast, powerful, versatile, and dynamic playmaker who you can put anywhere on the field and make an impact. Dare I say Lawrence Taylor-like. :eek:

But getting back to the QB - Guys like Mond and Mills are being talked about a lot. Both have been rated as 3rd round picks by most draft services (and BCG) but given the panic buying we are seeing for the first 5 guys, I think the Pats will have to overpay somewhere in the 2nd round even for what amounts to the runts of the litter. In my fantasy world, the Pats move two of their 4ths and a 2022 3rd for a pick at the end of the 2nd round and get our "QB of the future" Hey its MY fantasy and I don't want to see 10 draftees on a roster that already has 80 or so guys signed. Quality cashould be the watch word and moving up into the 2nd and third rounds should be what we need to do with a lot of those lower picks. I wouldn't hate if we wound up with 5 picks all taken in the first 4 rounds take the 3rd day off.

I'll end this now with my annual plea for football commons sense. Please remember that football is the ULTIMATE team game. It is a game where the SUM is greater than the individual parts. That means you cannot judge a team by how good they are as individuals, but rather how they will play together. And regardless of who is on the roster now, we will not be able to tell what this team will end up being UNTIL probably mid October.

That being said I'm starting to get excited about this group. There will be a LOT of competition for roster spots and playing time. A lot of guys who will be fighting for their very professional life. Cam will be DONE if he isn't the best player he can be.. There will be a huge competition at WR, and back up TE's. A huge competition for snaps at RB. All KINDS of competition at DL, for positions and snaps, as well as LB and DB's especially at the depth positions. The starting OL may be set, but the battle for the other 4 slots will be epic All this competition can only make this team better. The steel becomes strong in the fire.

As fan all I can ask of my team is that they play hard and are competitive in every game, Also in almost every year some player will come out of left field to play key role on this team. I'm sure most of us were very sure at this point 20 years ago that the 2000 season's 4th string QB was going to lead the team to a superbowl championship. (sarcasm) So patience my friends building a football team is a LONG process, and that every season brings a different team into being no matter how many core players return. The chemistry and mindset of the team is different EVERY year. So it is hard to figure out what this team will be based on the past (good or bad) And the bottom line here is that we are VERY early into that process.

OK the sermon is over.
.
 

Sicilian

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
Good write-up, as always Ken.

On the QBs: I'm not holding my breath waiting for Stidham to "get it". Remember, Allen was a 7th overall pick, so the talent was undeniably there, he just hadn't put it all together yet. Stidham was a 4th rounder, and other than Dak and some other guy from the 6th round who's name I can't remember, rounds 4 and higher don't tend to produce a lot of good QBs. That said, there's absolutely zero benefit to giving up on him prior to training camp. Even if we trade for Jimmy or draft a kid, Stidham only has to beat out Dolegala for the #3 spot. He's still got a place on this roster unless something drastic happens.

I agree on the likelihood of JG coming here this year. I just have a hard time picturing the 49ers handing the reins to a kid in year one without serious competition, unless they get a first rounder in return for JG, which I'm loathe to part with this year. I agree with you that there should be some EXCELLENT prospects available there, and we have aging vets at LB and S, uncertainty in the future at CB and OT, and competition for spots at WR. That's a valuable pick no matter who gets picked 1-14.

On Cam, I just can't stop thinking about how bad our skill position group was, and how porous our run defense was, and how difficult a schedule we seemed to have. Despite all that, we won 7 games with Cam, far below what we've come to feel entitled to, but you'd think with those circumstances AND a subpar QB (which Cam was), we'd have won 4 games MAX. Even if Cam is the exact same guy, the improvements in other areas, on paper, should make us a better team. And if Cam improves? I don't think 10-7 or 11-6 is unreasonable at all.

The only point I'll contend above is that our OL has improved. I love Trent Brown, but based on consistency I view him as a slight step down from Thuney. The hope is that year two improvement from Onwenu makes up for that drop off, but I'll need to see it all play out before I'm ready to declare that an improved unit.
 

Sicilian

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
Only issue is jimmy g already has a no trade clause...

That's the only part that I think keeps a trade to NE a possibility. It limits the bidding on him. But SF would still have to want to trade him AND New England would have to be on his okay list. We all assume it is, but you never know. He might love the warmer weather states.
 

sb1

Pro Bowl Player
But the lesson that should be learned is that ALL QB's take time to develop. Even the results of a couple of years snapshots is not necessarily what the guy will be down the road. Drew Brees had a couple of shaky years in SD even before the shoulder injury. But with the right coach and system he was a star. Brady was a "game manager" his first few years and didn't become a prolific passer until 4 or 5 years into his career.

For that reason, I'll be interested to see how Jared Stidham looks in TC. Granted he had a VERY tough year, both on the field and (reportedly) in the locker room in gaining his teammates trust. Lets see if he does what's necessary to regain that trust and improve his game to another level. Remember he REALLY hasn't had much of chance to show what he can do. Him running that west coast practice was a small start. If he were as bad as we have been led to believe then why has BB chosen to keep him around. That thought alone makes me not just dismiss him as camp fodder even if they draft a QB in the 3rd round.
Rookie QBs with any potential often struggle in their first year but they almost always show progress going into year two. It may take them more than a year to become great but you want to see progression at least. Brady in particular took a massive step forward from year one to year two. He had “it”. Stidham didn’t do any of that. He regressed. He lost his job to freaking Hoyer. He was bad in each and every single one of his appearances on the field last season against defenses that weren’t really trying anymore.

The idea that what the Stid lovers wanted to see- a 4th round draft pick QB somehow is entitled to start even one game in the NFL without doing one thing to show he deserves it- that’s really strange to me.
 

Pape

In the Starting Line-Up
That's the only part that I think keeps a trade to NE a possibility. It limits the bidding on him. But SF would still have to want to trade him AND New England would have to be on his okay list. We all assume it is, but you never know. He might love the warmer weather states.
That is the truth of the matter... He hasn't said anything about potential destinations
 

RIpats88

In the Starting Line-Up
Florio hinted yesterday Jimmy G will not be playing for $26million next year. Whether that is for the niners or another team is still up in the air he said.

But they are going to ask him to take a significant paycut. And basically already told him you are not our future. I'm sure he will be enamored to train his replacement.
 

Boomer B

In the Starting Line-Up
“Hey Jimmy, it’s Kyle Shanahan here. How’s the family? How’s that actress you were dating? I saw a few of her films, very entertaining..haha... Hey Jimmy, just wanted to talk to you about the upcoming season. We drafted Lance really high...but we still love you buddy...what we’d like from you Jimmy..ahh...is to come in and be real positive...teach Lance and be real professional ... it’s what’s best for the team Jimmy ... Jimmy? Jimmy? You there Jimmy? Damn, he hung up”
 

farn

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
there is plenty of truth in the OP :
Jimmy won’t be behind Tua & Wilson in the AFCE. Eventually, sure, but in 2021, with NE’s players and staff, Jimmy would be a lot closer to Allen than those other two.

I hope he still ends up in NE. I was ok w the rebuild, but the $ invested suggests BB wants to compete. And Jimmy contributes to that.
 

RIpats88

In the Starting Line-Up
there is plenty of truth in the OP :
Jimmy won’t be behind Tua & Wilson in the AFCE. Eventually, sure, but in 2021, with NE’s players and staff, Jimmy would be a lot closer to Allen than those other two.

I hope he still ends up in NE. I was ok w the rebuild, but the $ invested suggests BB wants to compete. And Jimmy contributes to that.

Maybe i'm wrong, but Jimmy G. raises the ceiling of what this team can do next year. with Cam newton, maybe we are competing for a wild-card spot.

with Jimmy G, the way our roster is constructed we are in play in the AFC. our team isnt built much different than the 2019 san fran team that went to the superbowl. tough defense, strong running game, tight end centric offense. IF he stays healthy, which is a big factor.
 

Sicilian

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
I'm sure he will be enamored to train his replacement.

teach Lance

I keep seeing things like this from various posters. No QB is ever asked to teach his replacement. Brady wasn't asked to teach Garropolo. Favre wasn't asked to teach Rodgers. The only question that needs to be asked is whether Jimmy would throw a hissy fit and not do his best in 2021, just because he's unlikely to be on the team in 2022. From what we know of him, that doesn't sound like his personality, and would TANK his value on the open market if it was clear he was a problem child.
 

mgteich

PatsFans.com Veteran
PatsFans.com Supporter
"here's what I'll do." I'll rework my contract to lower the cap number, but like Mariotta, I want a no trade clause, so you don't ship me to [email protected] Houston or the like. Then make the best deal you can with this list of 4 teams I'd be willing to go to. (Pats, Boston, Foxboro, and NE)

Another EPIC post Ken!
response: we'll consider trading you next year.

If Jimmy decides to play poorly or not cooperate, that will NOT help his prospects with other teams.

If Jimmy does well this year, he will get big bucks when traded next year.
 

mgteich

PatsFans.com Veteran
PatsFans.com Supporter
Florio hinted yesterday Jimmy G will not be playing for $26million next year. Whether that is for the niners or another team is still up in the air he said.

But they are going to ask him to take a significant paycut. And basically already told him you are not our future. I'm sure he will be enamored to train his replacement.
Why should Jimmy accept a significant pay cut. If SF won't p[ay him this year, he can simply wait to be cut.
 

RIpats88

In the Starting Line-Up
response: we'll consider trading you next year.

If Jimmy decides to play poorly or not cooperate, that will NOT help his prospects with other teams.

If Jimmy does well this year, he will get big bucks when traded next year.

Why would teams trade for him next year when the niners will be forced to cut him?

What If the rookie outperforms him in camp or he misses a couple games and the rookie looks good? There's alot more risk for Jimmy than people think here
 

p8ryts

In the Starting Line-Up
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
Some morning thoughts on the possibility of JG becoming a Patriot....and sadly why he's probably NOT.

1. While it makes little sense for the Niners to pay so much to get the #3QB prospect, I wonder if it makes a lot of sense to trade him
Here's why. The guy they are going to get will be either Lance or Fields . Both would really benefit from a gap year. So you go to JG and say.

Hey Jimmy, I know its a real blow to your ego to see us draft our QB of a future that your not part of.. But here's the thing son, frankly at this point your injury history makes you damaged goods. That's the reality. But this kid isn't gong to be ready for the 2021 season. So here's what I suggest. I will totally commit to you being the starting QB for the Niners for the 2021 season. We will rework your contract so you will get all your money for the 2021 season and will be able to be a FA for 2022. We have a solid team on both sides of the ball and you can have the kind of season that will rebrand your reputation. Work with the kid and we BOTH win in the end.

I really think that the above conversation is going to happen and how JG responds will greatly affect the possibility of him coming here. He can say

"shove it" but here's what I'll do." I'll rework my contract to lower the cap number, but like Mariotta, I want a no trade clause, so you don't ship me to [email protected] Houston or the like. Then make the best deal you can with this list of 4 teams I'd be willing to go to. (Pats, Boston, Foxboro, and NE) and we;ll call it a day. Better the kid come in with a fresh start and you can work your offense around his talents. Make it happen Lynchie"

OR far more likely he'll say, "that's fair John, it's probably for the best if we do it your way."

2. It seems the word on the street is that Shannahan wants Lance. IF that IS his pick, it makes losing JG for this season is not the best idea. However that being said, he COULD decide that playing the kid right away with a limited offense might be best for his development. IIRC he had Matt Ryan at the beginning of his career and he was a first year starter? This scenario seems a long shot tool.

3. I want you all to remember how we ALL laughed at the mental errors and erratic throws that Josh Allen made his first 2 years in Buffalo. Now it looks like he's going to be a top 5 QB for a lot of years in our division. (IMHO he is what those people enamoured with Lance hopes he can become) Even if JG gets to NE this season,, The Pats are NOT going to have the best QB OR even the 2nd best if Tua improves and Wilson is with the Jets. The AFCLeast is very quickly gong to become the Young Guns division with the Pats looking up at the Bills Jets and Dolphins (at least at the QB position.

But the lesson that should be learned is that ALL QB's take time to develop. Even the results of a couple of years snapshots is not necessarily what the guy will be down the road. Drew Brees had a couple of shaky years in SD even before the shoulder injury. But with the right coach and system he was a star. Brady was a "game manager" his first few years and didn't become a prolific passer until 4 or 5 years into his career.

For that reason, I'll be interested to see how Jared Stidham looks in TC. Granted he had a VERY tough year, both on the field and (reportedly) in the locker room in gaining his teammates trust. Lets see if he does what's necessary to regain that trust and improve his game to another level. Remember he REALLY hasn't had much of chance to show what he can do. Him running that west coast practice was a small start. If he were as bad as we have been led to believe then why has BB chosen to keep him around. That thought alone makes me not just dismiss him as camp fodder even if they draft a QB in the 3rd round.

4. All that being said, I'm starting to think that Cam is going to start the season at QB. I have NO doubt that he will be better this season for a LOT of obvious reasons. 2nd year in the system, a full TC, better skill position players, better OL, better defense. BUT the question is to what DEGREE will be be better. A 100% improvement would make him just an average starting QB. But that STILL twill likely win us a lot of games. But a 100% improvement when the bar was set so low last season is nice, but is it good enough.

So here is what I'd like to see at TC (and hopefully hear before that)' about Cam's progression.

a. He's lost 15-20 lbs. He needs to lighten up LITTERALLY. He was dead legged last season. He lumbered more tha he ran. He has to recognize that as he ages he needs to prepare his body differently than when he was 25. He no longer has to be a 250lb QB who flattens LB's and DB's So I hope to hear he's down to 230 or so and looks a lot quicker and agile. I wouldn't mind hearing that he's been seen down at the TB12 facility.s go

b. That he's throwing the ball with better footwork, rhythm and ACCURACY in TC.

c. That he's making better decisions. Getting the ball out quicker and with a faster release.

As this season progresses we don't necessarily need a "great" QB, we just need a good one. A guy who can move the sticks and manage the game. Whether Cam can make these radical changes from the way he's always played the game to the way he now NEEDS to play the game is huge question. I certainly don't know the answer, but I CANNOT dismiss the possibility that he can.

So assuming I'm right about JG not coming, what to the Pats do to upgrade the QB position long term. Well they draft one, but HOPEFULLY not with the first round pick. Assuming that all 5 guys are gone by the time #15 rolls around, the Pats are going to see the best positional talent that they have seen since they drafted Richard Seymour (take THAT Ron Borges) They will likely have their choice of a top 3 DLman, LB, OLman, snd maybe WR. It would be hard to screw that one up. My personal favorite (at least in March) is Micah Parsons. If he's still there I don't think Bill will be able to pass on him. A fast, powerful, versatile, and dynamic playmaker who you can put anywhere on the field and make an impact. Dare I say Lawrence Taylor-like. :eek:

But getting back to the QB - Guys like Mond and Mills are being talked about a lot. Both have been rated as 3rd round picks by most draft services (and BCG) but given the panic buying we are seeing for the first 5 guys, I think the Pats will have to overpay somewhere in the 2nd round even for what amounts to the runts of the litter. In my fantasy world, the Pats move two of their 4ths and a 2022 3rd for a pick at the end of the 2nd round and get our "QB of the future" Hey its MY fantasy and I don't want to see 10 draftees on a roster that already has 80 or so guys signed. Quality cashould be the watch word and moving up into the 2nd and third rounds should be what we need to do with a lot of those lower picks. I wouldn't hate if we wound up with 5 picks all taken in the first 4 rounds take the 3rd day off.

I'll end this now with my annual plea for football commons sense. Please remember that football is the ULTIMATE team game. It is a game where the SUM is greater than the individual parts. That means you cannot judge a team by how good they are as individuals, but rather how they will play together. And regardless of who is on the roster now, we will not be able to tell what this team will end up being UNTIL probably mid October.

That being said I'm starting to get excited about this group. There will be a LOT of competition for roster spots and playing time. A lot of guys who will be fighting for their very professional life. Cam will be DONE if he isn't the best player he can be.. There will be a huge competition at WR, and back up TE's. A huge competition for snaps at RB. All KINDS of competition at DL, for positions and snaps, as well as LB and DB's especially at the depth positions. The starting OL may be set, but the battle for the other 4 slots will be epic All this competition can only make this team better. The steel becomes strong in the fire.

As fan all I can ask of my team is that they play hard and are competitive in every game, Also in almost every year some player will come out of left field to play key role on this team. I'm sure most of us were very sure at this point 20 years ago that the 2000 season's 4th string QB was going to lead the team to a superbowl championship. (sarcasm) So patience my friends building a football team is a LONG process, and that every season brings a different team into being no matter how many core players return. The chemistry and mindset of the team is different EVERY year. So it is hard to figure out what this team will be based on the past (good or bad) And the bottom line here is that we are VERY early into that process.

OK the sermon is over.
.
Don't overthink it. Trade Cam for Jimmy.
Stidham-I keep hearing about he had problems, never one concrete example. Hearsay, third party or farther stuff. All I know is he was the only guy that actually looked like a quarterback when he played. If he is that terrible then jettison him altogether and quit wasting time with him. My scenario is, we get Jimmy, trade Cam, Jimmy breaks a leg four games in and Stidham comes in and leads us to a SB win. Works for me.
 

mgteich

PatsFans.com Veteran
PatsFans.com Supporter
Why would teams trade for him next year when the niners will be forced to cut him?

What If the rookie outperforms him in camp or he misses a couple games and the rookie looks good? There's alot more risk for Jimmy than people think here1
SF is not forced to cut Jimmy. I think that $25M is a reasonable cost for a 1 year bridge who will keep SF competitive.
IMO, this is also reasonable for the patriots, but we would need to pay a draft pick for the priviledge.

Besides, even if SF knows that they are very likely to cut Jimmy, there is pressure for them to consider any action before the draft. After the draft, they could see if they could get anything for him. They could trade him for 3rd even to someone who was left out of getting a QB in the draft.
 

Lavictoire

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
Dont know how contracts work. Is it possible we start the year with Cam and the Niners start the season with Jimmy and we make a deal during the season after the rookie QB gets acclimated in SF?
 

stcjones

Pro Bowl Player
Jimmy has only made it healthy through one season since going to SF I blelieve. He has hard time staying on the field....
 

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