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Idle thoughts - Jimmy G, Cam and Stiddy

2021 Patriots Season:
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Next Up: vs Dolphins
Pick Results: MIA: 0% at NE: 0%

Sun
Sep 12th

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ohiopatsfan

On the Game Day Roster
While I am not a Stidhan fan, I feel he should get a decent shot at QB1 in camp. Whatever his problems have been in the past, be it sitting idly behind the GOAT, injuries, the messed up Covid season or just simply a lack of NFL caliber talent, this upcoming camp is probably his last chance to make a positive impression on BB. My own view is that he didn't/doesn't have that fire in the gut that a top NFL QB needs to succeed. If that is the case, he may never be anything more than an adequate backup.
 

SlowGettingUp

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
Niners still making all the right noises. Whether Jimmy will play along remains to be seen:


Here are the details of his contract - nothing guaranteed, but a very big cap hit this year and next. So I think the Pats backup plan may be to go with Cam and a lower-round QB this year and potentially grab Jimmy next year when he will be there for the taking.

 

1960Pats

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While I am not a Stidhan fan, I feel he should get a decent shot at QB1 in camp. Whatever his problems have been in the past, be it sitting idly behind the GOAT, injuries, the messed up Covid season or just simply a lack of NFL caliber talent, this upcoming camp is probably his last chance to make a positive impression on BB. My own view is that he didn't/doesn't have that fire in the gut that a top NFL QB needs to succeed. If that is the case, he may never be anything more than an adequate backup.
Right. Desire, or the fire in the belly, isn't something that can be taught. But I'm not sure if it's necessarily a prerequisite for a starting QB. I think there are some QBs, like our current starter, who don't seem to have that makeup.
 

rochrist

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
2019 Weekly Picks Winner
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
That's the fundamental difference between the two. BB said it himself. Brady took a gigantic step forward in year two. Left Huard in the dust. Stidham in year two went from presumed QB1 to a throne pic to losing his job to freaking Brian Hoyer. I mean if you're not even good enough in your second season to win the backup job over a guy like Hoyer then you shouldn't be long for this league. What else needs to be said?
He didn't have to take his step forward while isolating during a global pandemic and not being able to practice with the team. Whether you like it or not, it makes a difference.
 

sb1

Pro Bowl Player
He didn't have to take his step forward while isolating during a global pandemic and not being able to practice with the team. Whether you like it or not, it makes a difference.
Not enough of a difference to matter. Don't think he was the only one that went through that.

He was forgettable to just horrible in in every single game he played in 2020. No reason to think 2021 will be any different. If he's the starter in 2021 then something went terribly wrong with the season.
 

sb1

Pro Bowl Player
Right. Desire, or the fire in the belly, isn't something that can be taught. But I'm not sure if it's necessarily a prerequisite for a starting QB. I think there are some QBs, like our current starter, who don't seem to have that makeup.
Cam can't throw a football and he's still better than Stidham. Really remarkable when you think about it.
 

mgteich

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Cam can't throw a football and he's still better than Stidham. Really remarkable when you think about it.
A 4th quarterback is potential backup quarterback. Stidham just didn't work out. I don't fault Belichick for taking a shot in the 4th.
 
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1960Pats

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Some morning thoughts on the possibility of JG becoming a Patriot....and sadly why he's probably NOT.

1. While it makes little sense for the Niners to pay so much to get the #3QB prospect, I wonder if it makes a lot of sense to trade him
Here's why. The guy they are going to get will be either Lance or Fields . Both would really benefit from a gap year. So you go to JG and say.

Hey Jimmy, I know its a real blow to your ego to see us draft our QB of a future that your not part of.. But here's the thing son, frankly at this point your injury history makes you damaged goods. That's the reality. But this kid isn't gong to be ready for the 2021 season. So here's what I suggest. I will totally commit to you being the starting QB for the Niners for the 2021 season. We will rework your contract so you will get all your money for the 2021 season and will be able to be a FA for 2022. We have a solid team on both sides of the ball and you can have the kind of season that will rebrand your reputation. Work with the kid and we BOTH win in the end.

I really think that the above conversation is going to happen and how JG responds will greatly affect the possibility of him coming here. He can say

"shove it" but here's what I'll do." I'll rework my contract to lower the cap number, but like Mariotta, I want a no trade clause, so you don't ship me to [email protected] Houston or the like. Then make the best deal you can with this list of 4 teams I'd be willing to go to. (Pats, Boston, Foxboro, and NE) and we;ll call it a day. Better the kid come in with a fresh start and you can work your offense around his talents. Make it happen Lynchie"

OR far more likely he'll say, "that's fair John, it's probably for the best if we do it your way."

2. It seems the word on the street is that Shannahan wants Lance. IF that IS his pick, it makes losing JG for this season is not the best idea. However that being said, he COULD decide that playing the kid right away with a limited offense might be best for his development. IIRC he had Matt Ryan at the beginning of his career and he was a first year starter? This scenario seems a long shot tool.

3. I want you all to remember how we ALL laughed at the mental errors and erratic throws that Josh Allen made his first 2 years in Buffalo. Now it looks like he's going to be a top 5 QB for a lot of years in our division. (IMHO he is what those people enamoured with Lance hopes he can become) Even if JG gets to NE this season,, The Pats are NOT going to have the best QB OR even the 2nd best if Tua improves and Wilson is with the Jets. The AFCLeast is very quickly gong to become the Young Guns division with the Pats looking up at the Bills Jets and Dolphins (at least at the QB position.

But the lesson that should be learned is that ALL QB's take time to develop. Even the results of a couple of years snapshots is not necessarily what the guy will be down the road. Drew Brees had a couple of shaky years in SD even before the shoulder injury. But with the right coach and system he was a star. Brady was a "game manager" his first few years and didn't become a prolific passer until 4 or 5 years into his career.

For that reason, I'll be interested to see how Jared Stidham looks in TC. Granted he had a VERY tough year, both on the field and (reportedly) in the locker room in gaining his teammates trust. Lets see if he does what's necessary to regain that trust and improve his game to another level. Remember he REALLY hasn't had much of chance to show what he can do. Him running that west coast practice was a small start. If he were as bad as we have been led to believe then why has BB chosen to keep him around. That thought alone makes me not just dismiss him as camp fodder even if they draft a QB in the 3rd round.

4. All that being said, I'm starting to think that Cam is going to start the season at QB. I have NO doubt that he will be better this season for a LOT of obvious reasons. 2nd year in the system, a full TC, better skill position players, better OL, better defense. BUT the question is to what DEGREE will be be better. A 100% improvement would make him just an average starting QB. But that STILL twill likely win us a lot of games. But a 100% improvement when the bar was set so low last season is nice, but is it good enough.

So here is what I'd like to see at TC (and hopefully hear before that)' about Cam's progression.

a. He's lost 15-20 lbs. He needs to lighten up LITTERALLY. He was dead legged last season. He lumbered more tha he ran. He has to recognize that as he ages he needs to prepare his body differently than when he was 25. He no longer has to be a 250lb QB who flattens LB's and DB's So I hope to hear he's down to 230 or so and looks a lot quicker and agile. I wouldn't mind hearing that he's been seen down at the TB12 facility.s go

b. That he's throwing the ball with better footwork, rhythm and ACCURACY in TC.

c. That he's making better decisions. Getting the ball out quicker and with a faster release.

As this season progresses we don't necessarily need a "great" QB, we just need a good one. A guy who can move the sticks and manage the game. Whether Cam can make these radical changes from the way he's always played the game to the way he now NEEDS to play the game is huge question. I certainly don't know the answer, but I CANNOT dismiss the possibility that he can.

So assuming I'm right about JG not coming, what to the Pats do to upgrade the QB position long term. Well they draft one, but HOPEFULLY not with the first round pick. Assuming that all 5 guys are gone by the time #15 rolls around, the Pats are going to see the best positional talent that they have seen since they drafted Richard Seymour (take THAT Ron Borges) They will likely have their choice of a top 3 DLman, LB, OLman, snd maybe WR. It would be hard to screw that one up. My personal favorite (at least in March) is Micah Parsons. If he's still there I don't think Bill will be able to pass on him. A fast, powerful, versatile, and dynamic playmaker who you can put anywhere on the field and make an impact. Dare I say Lawrence Taylor-like. :eek:

But getting back to the QB - Guys like Mond and Mills are being talked about a lot. Both have been rated as 3rd round picks by most draft services (and BCG) but given the panic buying we are seeing for the first 5 guys, I think the Pats will have to overpay somewhere in the 2nd round even for what amounts to the runts of the litter. In my fantasy world, the Pats move two of their 4ths and a 2022 3rd for a pick at the end of the 2nd round and get our "QB of the future" Hey its MY fantasy and I don't want to see 10 draftees on a roster that already has 80 or so guys signed. Quality cashould be the watch word and moving up into the 2nd and third rounds should be what we need to do with a lot of those lower picks. I wouldn't hate if we wound up with 5 picks all taken in the first 4 rounds take the 3rd day off.

I'll end this now with my annual plea for football commons sense. Please remember that football is the ULTIMATE team game. It is a game where the SUM is greater than the individual parts. That means you cannot judge a team by how good they are as individuals, but rather how they will play together. And regardless of who is on the roster now, we will not be able to tell what this team will end up being UNTIL probably mid October.

That being said I'm starting to get excited about this group. There will be a LOT of competition for roster spots and playing time. A lot of guys who will be fighting for their very professional life. Cam will be DONE if he isn't the best player he can be.. There will be a huge competition at WR, and back up TE's. A huge competition for snaps at RB. All KINDS of competition at DL, for positions and snaps, as well as LB and DB's especially at the depth positions. The starting OL may be set, but the battle for the other 4 slots will be epic All this competition can only make this team better. The steel becomes strong in the fire.

As fan all I can ask of my team is that they play hard and are competitive in every game, Also in almost every year some player will come out of left field to play key role on this team. I'm sure most of us were very sure at this point 20 years ago that the 2000 season's 4th string QB was going to lead the team to a superbowl championship. (sarcasm) So patience my friends building a football team is a LONG process, and that every season brings a different team into being no matter how many core players return. The chemistry and mindset of the team is different EVERY year. So it is hard to figure out what this team will be based on the past (good or bad) And the bottom line here is that we are VERY early into that process.

OK the sermon is over.
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3. I'd like to see Allen go one more year before I rate him as a top 5 success. That 20 yard sack on 2nd and 4 in the AFCCG vs KC has me wondering if he's all the way there yet.

Everything else is spot on imho.
 

Sicilian

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
3. I'd like to see Allen go one more year before I rate him as a top 5 success. That 20 yard sack on 2nd and 4 in the AFCCG vs KC has me wondering if he's all the way there yet.

Everything else is spot on imho.

The thing about career years (that are way above previous years), is that often times that's the peak of what a player can do. Allen made HUGE strides last year, and he should be commended for that. But consistency is another thing, and not every player can do that year in, year out. I'm not betting money on him turning back into the horrible Josh Allen we saw pre-2020, but he still has something to prove for sure.

It's actually a similar criticism leveled towards Nelson Agholor. I don't mind the signing, but I agree with those who are worried that water will find its level.
 

luuked

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The thing about career years (that are way above previous years), is that often times that's the peak of what a player can do. Allen made HUGE strides last year, and he should be commended for that. But consistency is another thing, and not every player can do that year in, year out. I'm not betting money on him turning back into the horrible Josh Allen we saw pre-2020, but he still has something to prove for sure.

It's actually a similar criticism leveled towards Nelson Agholor. I don't mind the signing, but I agree with those who are worried that water will find its level.

I don't understand either why everyone assumes that Allen will be able to repeat last season again (and again, and again...).

The jury is more than still out on him.
 

NYCPatsFan

In the Starting Line-Up
Not enough of a difference to matter. Don't think he was the only one that went through that.

He was forgettable to just horrible in in every single game he played in 2020. No reason to think 2021 will be any different. If he's the starter in 2021 then something went terribly wrong with the season.
Am I right that only 3 starting QBs last season (Broncos, Ravens and us) tested positive with COVID?

If yes, I want to give a break to Cam irrespective of horrible his throws and decision making were.

Not sure how many could have handled getting hit with COVID when on a new team with a complex scheme and with no practice.

Edit - disregard my post pls. I thought you were referring to Cam and hence chimed in.
 

50-yard-line

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
The thing about career years (that are way above previous years), is that often times that's the peak of what a player can do. Allen made HUGE strides last year, and he should be commended for that. But consistency is another thing, and not every player can do that year in, year out. I'm not betting money on him turning back into the horrible Josh Allen we saw pre-2020, but he still has something to prove for sure.

It's actually a similar criticism leveled towards Nelson Agholor. I don't mind the signing, but I agree with those who are worried that water will find its level.
In Allen's favor, his progression has been pretty straight-line (getting Diggs and Beasely made all the difference in the world to him). Scheme and supporting cast matter a lot. I wouldn't be surprised at all if last year was the high-water mark for Buffalo, particularly with Miami making some great moves and New England in a fast and furious rebuild.

In Agholor's favor, he essentially changed position last year. He'll be asked to do the same here as with the Raiders, I think. Then agin, other than Golloday, I wasn't really OMG!!!! over any of the WRs on the market this year. Lot of good, but no one who wowed.

But yeah, water can find its level, so who really knows?
 

RIpats88

In the Starting Line-Up
I thought it was interesting that Kraft mentioned Covid and "lack of weapons" about cam newtons performance last year. Its something alot of posters have used as an example why he will be better, but interesting to hear the owner bring it up. So, its something that the coaching staff believe.

To me, this is rather good news if thats the case. Because, my fear was that cam's abilities physically had deteriorated. But, if hes doing one thing in practice and another on the field maybe theres issues that can be fixed.
 

Ochmed Jones

Pro Bowl Player
I thought it was interesting that Kraft mentioned Covid and "lack of weapons" about cam newtons performance last year. Its something alot of posters have used as an example why he will be better, but interesting to hear the owner bring it up. So, its something that the coaching staff believe.

To me, this is rather good news if thats the case. Because, my fear was that cam's abilities physically had deteriorated. But, if hes doing one thing in practice and another on the field maybe theres issues that can be fixed.

give newton a really good running game and limit the third and longs, and theoretically he should be able to put more points in the board.

hopefully our offensive line and running backs stay healthy this year.
 

RIpats88

In the Starting Line-Up
give newton a really good running game and limit the third and longs, and theoretically he should be able to put more points in the board.

hopefully our offensive line and running backs stay healthy this year.

Also, cam newtons best years in carolina he had Greg olsen as his #1 target. So, he clearly loves to throw to the tight ends. last year he had izzo.....going from izzo to Jonnu smith/Hunter henry is a huge jump in talent that should help him as well.
 

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