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BB knew this was a non playoff year from the start

2021 Patriots Season:
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Sep 12th

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203Pat

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Unless we went and hired Mahomes or 1 or 2 others, a big value drop at QB was a given. Cap position made the Cam flyer the best available shot. You guys know the COVID year isn't over, right? We might still not see a 2020 SB, but who knows. That said, this year, a lot depended on local, even individual, philosophy about the plague. Beyond that, the cap catches up to everyone. The last 20 years, TFB could add a few games by sheer force of will. That luxury is gone. Even if we thought the D was solid (it was not), the fact is that on O, we had a QB who couldn't make a pass with a pocket full of roofies and a Ron Jeremy pickup manual, and a receiving corps that some days couldn't catch the clap in a Bangkok brothel. HOWEVER, both these colorful points made, this big weeping and gnashing of teeth is over a roughly .500 team. We could continue to fall off but I don't think so. I think we're back in '21 (like much of normal life, knock on wood.)

Don't cry too much for 2020 being over, even in football world.
So Covid caused Bill to mismanage the cap. Glad that is cleared up.
 

Sam Bam Cunningham

Practice Squad Player
Belichick did not anticipate being a non--playoff contender. He signed Newton onto a team that included Hightower, Chung, Cannon, Allen, Vitale and Edelman. If these guys are all healthy and playing, do they lose the Seattle, Denver and Buffalo games? A few extra pieces, and this team is 9 - 5 and in the thick of the wild card race.

Belichick new this team was not a Super Bowl contender. He build around the team's strengths to make a run at the playoffs.
Allen and Vitale were bargain bin flyers not established elite players., He knows for sure that Chung Cannon and possibly Hightower are long in the tooth and way past their prime.. After they opted out...he knew for sure they were not going to make the playoffs. Yes even with the opt out guys they lose to Seattle and Buffalo.
 

betterthanthealternative

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
You guys know the COVID year isn't over, right? We might still not see a 2020 SB, but who knows. That said, this year, a lot depended on local, even individual, philosophy about the plague.

This is still so true. Nobody wants to talk about it, even now. Another 100K US citizens are still going to die from this before the half turn of 2021. They still don't know if the extent to which the vaccine will prevent people from getting the virus and transmitting it.

This is/was the perfect year to fix the cap, and be in position for next year. Hopefully, there will be a normal training camp process where all this youth the Pats are infusing can get enough practice to fill legitimate spots going forward.
 

203Pat

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
This is still so true. Nobody wants to talk about it, even now. Another 100K US citizens are still going to die from this before the half turn of 2021. They still don't know if the extent to which the vaccine will prevent people from getting the virus and transmitting it.

This is/was the perfect year to fix the cap, and be in position for next year. Hopefully, there will be a normal training camp process where all this youth the Pats are infusing can get enough practice to fill legitimate spots going forward.
So Covid caused Bill to offer Brady a crappy contract that would trigger $13.5 mill in dead money? Covid caused him to pay a guard $15 mill when we had no cap space? Covid caused him to pay Antonio Brown $9 mill for one game?

He has been bungling roster management for the last few years and now everyone wants to say "Well Covid made it hard to have camp and practice!". Obviously that is the case but even more so is a lack of talent. Bill knew Covid would create issues with practices and game plans and he had a QB who could run the offense with his eyes closed and he shoved him out the door. His drafting and personnel moves have brought us here. We could have kept the run alive if he hadn't treated the second round of the draft like an extension of the practice squad and trades for guys who fizzled out badly. The AB's, Sanu's, Eric Rowe's Joejuan Williams's, and Duke Dawson's of the world were going to catch up with us sooner or later and surprise surprise, the season the greatest QB of all time left us is when the sand ran out of the hourglass.
 

Sam Bam Cunningham

Practice Squad Player
So Covid caused Bill to offer Brady a crappy contract that would trigger $13.5 mill in dead money? Covid caused him to pay a guard $15 mill when we had no cap space? Covid caused him to pay Antonio Brown $9 mill for one game?

He has been bungling roster management for the last few years and now everyone wants to say "Well Covid made it hard to have camp and practice!". Obviously that is the case but even more so is a lack of talent. Bill knew Covid would create issues with practices and game plans and he had a QB who could run the offense with his eyes closed and he shoved him out the door. His drafting and personnel moves have brought us here. We could have kept the run alive if he hadn't treated the second round of the draft like an extension of the practice squad and trades for guys who fizzled out badly. The AB's, Sanu's, Eric Rowe's Joejuan Williams's, and Duke Dawson's of the world were going to catch up with us sooner or later and surprise surprise, the season the greatest QB of all time left us is when the sand ran out of the hourglass.
I agree with everything you are saying except, I do not believe Brady wanted to play for BB anymore, period. Certainly looks like Brady made the right decision.
 

203Pat

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
I agree with everything you are saying except, I do not believe Brady wanted to play for BB anymore, period. Certainly looks like Brady made the right decision.
That may be the case but if I had to guess I would say it was more the lack of commitment to Brady contract-wise over the last few years than it was all the Johnny Foxboro "Bill is too mean" crap. Brady never took top dollar at his peak then even while playing well Bill wouldn't make a commitment even after winning MVP is 2017.
 

XLIX

Pro Bowl Player
I wish we could trade places with any other fanbase. We're so unlucky to be Patriots fans. This is awful. The worst thing in the history of sports.

I honestly don't think BB's reputation will recover and he will probably retire and go by a pseudonym to escape his shame.
If he coaches, say, 5 more years and they’re all 7/8/9 win clunkers, then yes his reputation will suffer in the eyes of history.
 

PatsFanInVa

PatsFans.com Supporter
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2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
So Covid caused Bill to offer Brady a crappy contract that would trigger $13.5 mill in dead money? Covid caused him to pay a guard $15 mill when we had no cap space? Covid caused him to pay Antonio Brown $9 mill for one game?

He has been bungling roster management for the last few years and now everyone wants to say "Well Covid made it hard to have camp and practice!". Obviously that is the case but even more so is a lack of talent. Bill knew Covid would create issues with practices and game plans and he had a QB who could run the offense with his eyes closed and he shoved him out the door. His drafting and personnel moves have brought us here. We could have kept the run alive if he hadn't treated the second round of the draft like an extension of the practice squad and trades for guys who fizzled out badly. The AB's, Sanu's, Eric Rowe's Joejuan Williams's, and Duke Dawson's of the world were going to catch up with us sooner or later and surprise surprise, the season the greatest QB of all time left us is when the sand ran out of the hourglass.
This whole "So [strawman argument nobody said]..." tactic is as irrelevant as it is annoying.

Do you want me to say "So there is no coronavirus"? Same tactic. Don't be an idiot.

Teams were hit to different extents in different ways, like the usual "injury bug" on steroids. It did affect this season's outcomes.

Your logical error is believing that everybody's arguing your pet theorem of "Bill Belichick bungled roster management and the cap for the last few years. Discuss." That ain't the topic for me. I will say it strikes me as extremely unlikely that you'll finally pay the piper on what remains of a franchise QB, after a run that includes 9 SB appearances and 6 SB wins in 19 years, and not have an issue or two regarding cap space.

If you really want to have that spat with someone, I'd suggest yourself, the only one picking that fight -- but I'm gonna humor you, champ, and pretend that what you care about matters.

Factor in the pro with the con, and factor in the results. (1) If this is the cratering year and we end up in the vicinity of .500, not bad, (2) factor in his "cheapness" with Brady versus bank-breaking contracts. I'm not arguing that BB really was super-cheap with Brady, but he extracted several contracts with "hometown discounts" as compared with his peers at the top of the league. I think that finally got to Brady along with everything else. Not so much that he thinks he'll have to borrow lunch money, just the signifier of being taken advantage of. Fine. What did BB get by being this terrible human being who lost TFB? What's been the cap savings over the years, if you want to complain about how badly he's managed the cap?

Would I want Brady gone sayyyyyy before 2018? In retrospect, hell no. Was he winning another ring here? Maybe/Forever unknown. What other weapons would he have? We might be in the hunt, but what I see is a guy catching fire at the right time, with a superstar receiving corps in Tampa, but he himself is not a dominant QB anymore. So - what did we save through BB's trademark grumpy cat attitude about overpaying? Because what TFB can win with Tampa's weapons =/= what he could win with NE's.

That's just one devil's advocate position on the cap, and I'm sure (half of) our local capologists -- the ones that disagree with you, of course -- can think of many more. And no, I'm not super-invested in taking the "con" point of view against your position of "Wahhhhhh you must be saying the opposite of my belief about BB being terrible at everything having to do with the roster." This is a really good year to get your yayas out regarding BB critiques, particularly from the "BB the GM vs BB the head coach" contingent. Usually it's about as cogent as the game day crits of "the playcalling" being "terrible." Whatever you did was terrible -- you should have done the opposite. Yeah sure, and Marshawn Lynch woulda shoulda coulda run it in from the 1. You're always right in counterfactual land.

So yeah, have the opinion you want about how terrible BB is, be Captain Hindsight and make sure you do it selectively, and feel free to froth about it all you want... but try to do it without putting words in everybody else's mouth.

You've pretty much stated the obvious that some bills came due this year. Eu-fckn-reka. You've discovered the key to the universe. But if this is the big collapse of western civilization, after a 19 year run of dominance, you have nothing to complain about. Looks like about the best job you could hope for. Of course, if this is the beginning of something worse, your point is stronger.

So you root for that, champ.
 

203Pat

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
This whole "So [strawman argument nobody said]..." tactic is as irrelevant as it is annoying.

Do you want me to say "So there is no coronavirus"? Same tactic. Don't be an idiot.

Teams were hit to different extents in different ways, like the usual "injury bug" on steroids. It did affect this season's outcomes.

Your logical error is believing that everybody's arguing your pet theorem of "Bill Belichick bungled roster management and the cap for the last few years. Discuss." That ain't the topic for me. I will say it strikes me as extremely unlikely that you'll finally pay the piper on what remains of a franchise QB, after a run that includes 9 SB appearances and 6 SB wins in 19 years, and not have an issue or two regarding cap space.

If you really want to have that spat with someone, I'd suggest yourself, the only one picking that fight -- but I'm gonna humor you, champ, and pretend that what you care about matters.

Factor in the pro with the con, and factor in the results. (1) If this is the cratering year and we end up in the vicinity of .500, not bad, (2) factor in his "cheapness" with Brady versus bank-breaking contracts. I'm not arguing that BB really was super-cheap with Brady, but he extracted several contracts with "hometown discounts" as compared with his peers at the top of the league. I think that finally got to Brady along with everything else. Not so much that he thinks he'll have to borrow lunch money, just the signifier of being taken advantage of. Fine. What did BB get by being this terrible human being who lost TFB? What's been the cap savings over the years, if you want to complain about how badly he's managed the cap?

Would I want Brady gone sayyyyyy before 2018? In retrospect, hell no. Was he winning another ring here? Maybe/Forever unknown. What other weapons would he have? We might be in the hunt, but what I see is a guy catching fire at the right time, with a superstar receiving corps in Tampa, but he himself is not a dominant QB anymore. So - what did we save through BB's trademark grumpy cat attitude about overpaying? Because what TFB can win with Tampa's weapons =/= what he could win with NE's.

That's just one devil's advocate position on the cap, and I'm sure (half of) our local capologists -- the ones that disagree with you, of course -- can think of many more. And no, I'm not super-invested in taking the "con" point of view against your position of "Wahhhhhh you must be saying the opposite of my belief about BB being terrible at everything having to do with the roster." This is a really good year to get your yayas out regarding BB critiques, particularly from the "BB the GM vs BB the head coach" contingent. Usually it's about as cogent as the game day crits of "the playcalling" being "terrible." Whatever you did was terrible -- you should have done the opposite. Yeah sure, and Marshawn Lynch woulda shoulda coulda run it in from the 1. You're always right in counterfactual land.

So yeah, have the opinion you want about how terrible BB is, be Captain Hindsight and make sure you do it selectively, and feel free to froth about it all you want... but try to do it without putting words in everybody else's mouth.

You've pretty much stated the obvious that some bills came due this year. Eu-fckn-reka. You've discovered the key to the universe. But if this is the big collapse of western civilization, after a 19 year run of dominance, you have nothing to complain about. Looks like about the best job you could hope for. Of course, if this is the beginning of something worse, your point is stronger.

So you root for that, champ.
This seems to be an overly hostile post but anyways I didn't say Coronavirus wasn't a factor in how this season turned out I just said this team's issues are far more about a lack of talent. It isn't just hindsight I have *****ing about Bill's drafting for a couple years now.

I said the run could have kept going if Bill drafted better. Point blank. You can talk circles all you want but a lack of skill position players doomed this team. No one hates Bill. I know any criticism of Bill turns into angry posts like yours in defense of him. He is the greatest coach of all time but not infallible.
 

jmt57

Moderator
Staff member
How well have we as Patriot fans had it?
Let's compare the top NFL franchises since 2000.

New England Patriots
Playoffs: 17
Non-winning seasons: 2
Lombardi Trophies: 6
Conference Championships: 9
Conf. Championship Games: 13

Pittsburgh Steelers
Playoffs: 13
Non-winning seasons: 5
Lombardi Trophies: 2
Conference Championships: 3
Conf. Championship Games: 6

Baltimore Ravens
Playoffs: 13
Non-winning seasons: 6
Lombardi Trophies: 2
Conference Championships: 2
Conf. Championship Games: 4

Indianapolis Colts
Playoffs: 14
Non-winning seasons: 6
Lombardi Trophies: 1
Conference Championships: 2
Conf. Championship Games: 4

Kansas City Chiefs
Playoffs: 10
Non-winning seasons: 9
Lombardi Trophies: 1
Conference Championships: 1
Conf. Championship Games: 2

Denver Broncos
Playoffs: 9
Non-winning seasons: 10
Lombardi Trophies: 1
Conference Championships: 2
Conf. Championship Games: 3

Green Bay Packers
Playoffs: 15
Non-winning seasons: 5
Lombardi Trophies: 1
Conference Championships: 1
Conf. Championship Games: 5

Seattle Seahawks
Playoffs: 14
Non-winning seasons: 6
Lombardi Trophies: 1
Conference Championships: 3
Conf. Championship Games: 3

San Francisco 49ers
Playoffs: 6
Non-winning seasons: 15
Lombardi Trophies: 0
Conference Championships: 2
Conf. Championship Games: 4

Philadelphia Eagles
Playoffs: 14
Non-winning seasons: 7
Lombardi Trophies: 1
Conference Championships: 2
Conf. Championship Games: 6

New Orleans Saints
Playoffs: 9
Non-winning seasons: 10
Lombardi Trophies: 1
Conference Championships: 1
Conf. Championship Games: 3


* Note * - any team not yet eliminated is given a playoff appearance for the 2020 season in the above numbers (even Philly).
 

Ivan

Hall of Fame Poster
Who are you referring to? Are you celebrating the loss of Van Noy? Brady? Who?

As an aside, Hightower, Chung, Cannon, McCourty and McCourty are still on the roster.
I’m not “ celebrating” anything, I’m simply saying what Belichick already acknowledged, which is that they were using this season to get their cap situation in better shape. I think Belichick always wants to field the best team he can, but I also believe he knows he’s in a rebuild, and he’s gauging positions and figuring out what he needs to do this coming offseason.
 

sb1

Pro Bowl Player
It's certainly the excuse.

The guys who "reset" the Browns got fired after 2 losing seasons. Just FYI.

"Reset" doesn't necessarily mean success will follow if you draft as poorly as we have been. No team is built with FA alone.
Firing Bill now would be a catastrophe.

edit: misread your post. I agree that a reset won’t necessarily mean back in contention after a year away. Pats are in a unique position though, they do have a better draft pick than usual assuming it’s used properly, and money to spend compared to other teams. An easier schedule next season will help too.
 
Last edited:

Ivan

Hall of Fame Poster
I agree with everything you are saying except, I do not believe Brady wanted to play for BB anymore, period. Certainly looks like Brady made the right decision.
I agree with this, whatever his reasons were, Brady was done in NE and Belichick was ready to deal with it and move on. Belichick has always looked to college football for where the game is headed, and I think he believes he needs an athletic QB for the future, but wants one who can manage games, and he’s looking to find that QB and try to build another perennial championship contender before hanging it up.
 

Biffins

In the Starting Line-Up
That may be the case but if I had to guess I would say it was more the lack of commitment to Brady contract-wise over the last few years than it was all the Johnny Foxboro "Bill is too mean" crap. Brady never took top dollar at his peak then even while playing well Bill wouldn't make a commitment even after winning MVP is 2017.
Exactly. Even now Brady wasn't asking for "top dollar" or something. But 1 yr at $23m, come on. He wanted to be near Top-10 or so and have a 2 yr commitment. Sounds pretty ****in reasonable. Brady has been playing like a top 10 QB if not top 5 QB. He's 4th in Pass Yards, 4th in TDs, has 65%+ completion and has carried the team as he's 4th in Pass Attempts for any team.

How is it unreasonable for him to have asked top 10 QB money, ESPECIALLY when his past performance justified it. Hell he was NFL MVP in just 2017 when he was negotiating this extention in 2018. And he had JUST won a SB.

BB blew it. Pure and simple. He's now going around throwing excuses "mortgaged our future for 3 more Superbowls" BS. Well BB. Why didn't we mortgage some more and win with Brady this year as well. If 2018 SB win was lucky, we could have gotten lucky again. With Brady it's possible.
 

Lagaffe_07

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
Firing Bill now would be a catastrophe.

edit: misread your post. I agree that a reset won’t necessarily mean back in contention after a year away. Pats are in a unique position though, they do have a better draft pick than usual assuming it’s used properly, and money to spend compared to other teams. An easier schedule next season will help too.
I don’t think we have that much money. I think we are projected to have 70M in cap space with like 20 FA. Count around 50M if you choose to have a good veteran QB.
 

PatsFanInVa

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2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
This seems to be an overly hostile post but anyways I didn't say Coronavirus wasn't a factor in how this season turned out I just said this team's issues are far more about a lack of talent. It isn't just hindsight I have *****ing about Bill's drafting for a couple years now.

I said the run could have kept going if Bill drafted better. Point blank. You can talk circles all you want but a lack of skill position players doomed this team. No one hates Bill. I know any criticism of Bill turns into angry posts like yours in defense of him. He is the greatest coach of all time but not infallible.
Let's be clear: You were the guy mischaracterizing others' stances as some rubbish like "oh okay good to know that since there was a virus, BB drafts just fine," or whatever the second half of your strawman argument was.

Nobody said the thing you started with. What I told you was the flip of the same logic. Sorry to spell it out, but it evidently didn't sink in: If YOU don't like others mischaracterizing your point of view (e.g., that coronavirus wasn't a factor,) don't mischaracterize their point of view. (Not wasting time with fishing out the actual post, but take a look at the last one where I quoted the second of two posts where you mischaracterize other opinions, caricaturing them as saying that since there was a coronavirus pandemic, there was nothing wrong with the Pats' roster management. That's what pissed me off -- but sorry to unload on you just because of the classic logic fail. It's not like you invented those.
 

Rob0729

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
I always said this was the year to have a crap year. COVID has really done some real damage to the season. I mean Cleveland had no WRs today that were actually on the active roster two days ago playing today. We have had a team start a practice squad WR at QB a game.

I don't know if Belichick knew it is was a non-playoff year. I doubt he knew players like Hightower were going to sit out the season. But do think he knew they were cap strapped this season, but flushed with cap space next year. I think he always intended to stay pat with what he had and look to the next year to rebuild.
 

mgteich

PatsFans.com Veteran
PatsFans.com Supporter
.

I don't know if Belichick knew it is was a non-playoff year. I doubt he knew players like Hightower were going to sit out the season. But do think he knew they were cap strapped this season, but flushed with cap space next year. I think he always intended to stay pat with what he had and look to the next year to rebuild.
I believe the opt outs happened before the start of the season and certainly before the trade deadline.

Belichick CHOSE not to sign or trade for a NT, LB, WR and/or TE. Those were decisions made that could certainly have affected our playoff chances.

I don't know how Bill would have KNOWN that this wasn't a playoff year before the season began, unless we mean that he thought this likely to be the case, knowing that he would make those decisions.
 

203Pat

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Let's be clear: You were the guy mischaracterizing others' stances as some rubbish like "oh okay good to know that since there was a virus, BB drafts just fine," or whatever the second half of your strawman argument was.

Nobody said the thing you started with. What I told you was the flip of the same logic. Sorry to spell it out, but it evidently didn't sink in: If YOU don't like others mischaracterizing your point of view (e.g., that coronavirus wasn't a factor,) don't mischaracterize their point of view. (Not wasting time with fishing out the actual post, but take a look at the last one where I quoted the second of two posts where you mischaracterize other opinions, caricaturing them as saying that since there was a coronavirus pandemic, there was nothing wrong with the Pats' roster management. That's what pissed me off -- but sorry to unload on you just because of the classic logic fail. It's not like you invented those.
I don’t know who said what at this point and maybe I mistook your post. My point was Covid was a minor factor in why this team is so bad this year and a lack of talent was the main problem. I’ve just seen Covid bandied about here as an excuse for the way this season has unfolded and maybe I misconstrued your post as some of that excuse making for Bill. If that was not your initial point then I apologize for being off base.
 

Rob0729

PatsFans.com Supporter
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I believe the opt outs happened before the start of the season and certainly before the trade deadline.

Belichick CHOSE not to sign or trade for a NT, LB, WR and/or TE. Those were decisions made that could certainly have affected our playoff chances.

I don't know how Bill would have KNOWN that this wasn't a playoff year before the season began, unless we mean that he thought this likely to be the case, knowing that he would make those decisions.

They happened right before the start of the season. They still had plenty of time to build before the start of the season. The trade deadline was almost halfway through the season. That kinda excludes the OP premise that Belichick knew from the start that this wasn't a playoff year.

I am just saying that Belichick probably knew he couldn't significantly improve this team this year and opted to stay put with what he had and is waiting for next year to rebuild. I think he probably expected the team to be better than it was because I think he probably thought that he would have a better defense than he had.

But the no moves at the trade deadline still plays into my theory that he is waiting until next year to reload. He chose not to give away draft capital for any significance. Let's face it. By the trade deadline, we all knew this wasn't a Super Bowl team.
 

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