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DropKickFlutie

In the Starting Line-Up
It would be insane to even consider changing from the best HC/GM of all time.

Even if one were to consider someone else, I don't see anyone being better at constructing an elite defense. I love plucking pro bowl corners JC Jackson and Jonathan Jones out of thin air undrafted scrap heaps. Did the same with Malcolm Butler. Or low pick conversions. Converted Edelman and now Meyers from QB to WR. Found a total gem in Onwenu. He does have blind spots compounded by horseh-t scouting and opinions from Josh McDaniels and Caserio, particularly at WR, or second round DB busts. He could offset these limitations by spending a mill and bringing back good GM consultants like Reese or Pioli or Dimitroff. There's no one else I'd still rather have. Just look around the league. Nobody is perfect at every position. There are ways to supplement Belichick's blind spots by replacing out the dumbasses around him.

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jmt57

Moderator
Staff member
One we have not deteriorated at K. We have the same kicker as last year and his playing good this year.

if Brady was still here Asiasi would have seen the ball already and white production would be up as well as Edelman.
Asiasi has barely got on the field. Brady being here would not have changed that, just like Brady being here did not turn the 2019 tight ends into a serviceable unit.

Julian Edelman is on injured reserve and will probably not play again this season. Asiasi is also on injured reserve. Therefore there production could never go up with any different quarterback.


Now the big point you miss is that last year we had no OL and no running game we needed to pass the ball to move the sticks. So the D played the pass almost everytime doubling Edelman and playing man.
If that is all it was, then why didn't Brady exploit opposing defenses with passes to somebody other than Edelman last year?


this year, with the good OL and the running game we have. Teams cannot play the pass exclusively and Brady and McDaniels would have exploited that.
No opposing defense is playing the pass exclusively against the Patriots, with this group of WR and TE.

Who would Brady be passing the ball to, to allow the Pats to exploit?
Harry and Meyers were here last year, that didn't happen then; why would it now?
Dorsett and Byrd are similar speed guys on the outside. As mediocre as Dorsett was, he's better than Byrd. Brady didn't magically make Dorsett a good receiver; he wouldn't have done so with Byrd either.


The running game is a mile better than last year the fact that you say that is offset by Sony and white production shows that you pretty much not watching the games.

Sony Michel and James White are not as productive as last year.

Sony Michel
2020 (extrapolated for a full season): Rushing: 395 yards, 2 TD; Receiving: 4 catches, 53 yards, 0 TD
2019 stats: Rushing: 912 yards, 7 TD; Receiving: 12 catches, 94 yards, 0 TD

James White
2020 (extrapolated): Rushing: 117 yards, 0 TD; Receiving: 48 catches, 391 yards, 0 TD
2019 stats: Rushing: 263 yards, 1 TD; Receiving: 72 catches, 645 yards, 5 TD


The Patriots are running the ball much more efficiently, but the overall production is not 'a mile' better. The RBs are on pace to rush for 1,721 yards and 9 TD; last year they ran for 1,560 yards and 14 TD. They are projected to have 103 receptions for 853 yards and 5 TD; in 2019 they had 123 catches for 1,172 yards and 7 TD.



The overall point remains: when considering the other 52 players on the roster other than Brady/Newton, the 2020 Patriots are nowhere near as good as the 2019 Pats.
 

gobesmug

On the Game Day Roster
It would be insane to even consider changing from the best HC/GM of all time.

Even if one were to consider someone else, I don't see anyone being better at constructing an elite defense. I love plucking pro bowl corners JC Jackson and Jonathan Jones out of thin air undrafted scrap heaps. Did the same with Malcolm Butler. Or low pick conversions. Converted Edelman and now Meyers from QB to WR. Found a total gem in Onwenu. He does have blind spots compounded by horseh-t scouting and opinions from Josh McDaniels and Caserio, particularly at WR, or second round DB busts. He could offset these limitations by spending a mill and bringing back good GM consultants like Reese or Pioli or Dimitroff. There's no one else I'd still rather have. Just look around the league. Nobody is perfect at every position. There are ways to supplement Belichick's blind spots by replacing out the dumbasses around him.

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At the end of day QB is the most impactful position in the NFL. A great QB trumps a great HC everytime.

Being objective. Bill with Drew Bledsoe had a listing record.

Yes he had a 11-5 record with Matt Cassell but Cassell wasn't a scrub either. Cassell 2 seasons later with the Chiefs went to the playoffs, won an offensive player of the month award and even went to the probowl.

He went 2-0 with Jimmy G, who has been a winning QB in SF and almost won a Superbowl with them.

With Brisset he went 1-1, including a 16-0 loss to the bills. The offensive looked terrible and I doubt the pats even make the playoffs, let alone win the Superbowl with Brisset under center.

With Cam pre COVID, the team looked great. If Cam didn't get COVID who knows how this season would have looked.

Either way you look at it, Brady is still Brady and is elevating a team that missed the playoffs and making them the top team in the NFC. The impact Brady has had on the Bucs can't be ignored.

Gronk came out of retirement to play with Brady and AB choose the Bucs before teams like the Seahawks and Packers.

Brady has elevated his legacy where Bill is just making mediocre Subway commercials. Bill making lame excuses about the cap doesn't help either.

All he had to do was draft a couple makers at Wr in back to back historic drafts with Wrs, and instead he came away with Harry and Meyers. That's pathetic.

What Bill did with the 01 Pats was incredible, I don't see any other coach taking that team and beating the Rams. Bill is definitely the GOAT HC but it's not clear cut that he is the GOAT GM. A top 3 GM for sure, but clear GOAT status can't be given to him at GM.
 

DropKickFlutie

In the Starting Line-Up
At the end of day QB is the most impactful position in the NFL. A great QB trumps a great HC everytime.

Being objective. Bill with Drew Bledsoe had a listing record.

Yes he had a 11-5 record with Matt Cassell but Cassell wasn't a scrub either. Cassell 2 seasons later with the Chiefs went to the playoffs, won an offensive player of the month award and even went to the probowl.

He went 2-0 with Jimmy G, who has been a winning QB in SF and almost won a Superbowl with them.

With Brisset he went 1-1, including a 16-0 loss to the bills. The offensive looked terrible and I doubt the pats even make the playoffs, let alone win the Superbowl with Brisset under center.

With Cam pre COVID, the team looked great. If Cam didn't get COVID who knows how this season would have looked.

Either way you look at it, Brady is still Brady and is elevating a team that missed the playoffs and making them the top team in the NFC. The impact Brady has had on the Bucs can't be ignored.

Gronk came out of retirement to play with Brady and AB choose the Bucs before teams like the Seahawks and Packers.

Brady has elevated his legacy where Bill is just making mediocre Subway commercials. Bill making lame excuses about the cap doesn't help either.

All he had to do was draft a couple makers at Wr in back to back historic drafts with Wrs, and instead he came away with Harry and Meyers. That's pathetic.

What Bill did with the 01 Pats was incredible, I don't see any other coach taking that team and beating the Rams. Bill is definitely the GOAT HC but it's not clear cut that he is the GOAT GM. A top 3 GM for sure, but clear GOAT status can't be given to him at GM.

1. Clearly a great HC beats a great QB. Belichick is proof with multiple specific rings about this.

2. I don't disagree with you he's not the greatest all time GM. But the combo of what he brings, who beats this ? Who would you hire. There are people here saying BB should go which makes zero sense. BB is by the best option even with a couple warts.

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farn

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
1. Clearly a great HC beats a great QB. Belichick is proof with multiple specific rings about this.

2. I don't disagree with you he's not the greatest all time GM. But the combo of what he brings, who beats this ? Who would you hire. There are people here saying BB should go which makes zero sense. BB is by the best option even with a couple warts.

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Not the greatest GM. Does anyone ever suggest a 5 person list of greatest GMs ever ? I want to compare & contrast.

If only BB could draft WEAPONS ! Like the Steelers ! They’ve had soooooooo many weapons in the last 10 years !
(Also, their best season in the last decade was a SB loss ten years ago)
 

sb1

Pro Bowl Player
It would be insane to even consider changing from the best HC/GM of all time.

Even if one were to consider someone else, I don't see anyone being better at constructing an elite defense. I love plucking pro bowl corners JC Jackson and Jonathan Jones out of thin air undrafted scrap heaps. Did the same with Malcolm Butler. Or low pick conversions. Converted Edelman and now Meyers from QB to WR. Found a total gem in Onwenu. He does have blind spots compounded by horseh-t scouting and opinions from Josh McDaniels and Caserio, particularly at WR, or second round DB busts. He could offset these limitations by spending a mill and bringing back good GM consultants like Reese or Pioli or Dimitroff. There's no one else I'd still rather have. Just look around the league. Nobody is perfect at every position. There are ways to supplement Belichick's blind spots by replacing out the dumbasses around him.

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If Bill goes 2-14 never say never. A crap coach could go 2-14 as well.
 

Run DMC

In the Starting Line-Up
My Lord is this thread off the rails. You're looking at a 2-5 team and still BB ball washing? Brady made this egotist and covered up the countless mistakes by always taking less than what he was worth. Belichick is a sub .500 coach without Brady and the numbers speak for themselves. Until he turns that around, the facts are the facts despite the fantasies of many on this forum.
 

lancerman

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
This can’t be right. I’ve been told by the Madden and fantasy specialists here that Belichick is a terrible GM. Worst ever. It was ALL Brady, the man, the legend, the God. It is written. It is the Word.
Bill coached 3 seasons in NE with out Brady. 2000, 2008, 2020. He's on the verge of going 0 for 3 in missing the playoffs in seasons without Brady. That 0-3 can be added to his 1 for 5 record in cleveland if you want. Either way Belichick does not have a remotely impressive or noteworthy resume without Brady. That doesn't make him a bad coach or GM. But let's please not pretend alot of what Bill was able to do was not hugely aided by the existence of Brady. Being set at the most valuable position who isn't routinely breaking the bank and is maximizing offensive talent while also being a huge draw for other players to come here to up thier value by winning a champion is significant.
 

gobesmug

On the Game Day Roster
1. Clearly a great HC beats a great QB. Belichick is proof with multiple specific rings about this.

2. I don't disagree with you he's not the greatest all time GM. But the combo of what he brings, who beats this ? Who would you hire. There are people here saying BB should go which makes zero sense. BB is by the best option even with a couple warts.

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Fully disagree on 1. How many great QBs miss the playoffs consistently. Great QBs like Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Wilson, ect have their teams in the playoffs every year.

Ave QBs like Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, require great coaching.

In the end, it's really difficult for a great QB to win a superbowl without an ave HC and it's almost impossible for a great HC to win without an Ave QB in the current era of football.

Since 2001 here is the list of Superbowl winning QBs.

Brady
Brad Johnson
Brady
Brady
Big Ben
Peyton
Eli
Big Ben
Brees
Rodgers
Eli
Flacco
Wilson
Brady
Peyton
Brady
Foles
Brady
Mahomes

Out of those 19 Superbowls, 14 were won by HOF QBs. Bill is currently 2-5 without a great QB where Brady is 5-2 with a new team. So yes, great QBs trump great coaches.
 

lancerman

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Vince Lombardi never made the playoffs once without Bart Starr and when he left for the Redskins did not even make the playoffs.

Bill Walsh went 2-14 and 6-10 with the 49ers before Montana became full time starter in 1981.

Phil Jackson never won a championship unless he had Jordan Shaq or Kobe on his team.

Red Auerbach never won anything until some player named Bill Russell arrived.

Almost as if great coaches need great players to have legendary success.

It is incredibly unlikely that BB will be able to turn the Pats back into a dynasty and probably unlikely he will win another championship as they are extremely hard to get. ( I hope I am wrong) If he can build this team back into serious contention without years of losing he will have accomplished something few have ever done.

Shula went final 20+ years w/o winning a championship despite having an All time QB.
Bill Parcells coached 11 years after the Giants and never won again.
Jimmy Johnson could not match his Cowboys success with the Dolphins winning 2 playoff games in 4 seasons.
Chuck Noll went 12 seasons after his last championship and was 2 games over .500 with 2 playoff wins.
Alot of these are poor arguments. Bill Belichick coached 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 2000, (2 games in 2001), 2008, (4 games in 2016) and 2020 without Brady. That's an 8 years and change sample size. It isn't small.

Vince Lombardi joined the Packers in 1959. Bart Starr was already there in 1957. Lombardi never had a losing season with the Packers including his first year where Starr wasn't starting. Lombardi made the NFL championship game his second year and then was rolling ever since. He retired for a year and came back to a totally new team and improved on their record having a winning season and then retiring for good.

Phil Jackson's not a great comparison because he never coached a single season without Jordan/Kobe/Shaq. What you can however say is that Kobe and Shaq were on the Lakers in 1996 and didn't win anything until the second year Phil got there AND Jordan was on the Bulls all the way back in 1984 and I don't think it's a coincidence that 2 years after Phil became the coach and implemented the triangle nobody could beat them. Oh and the Bulls still made the Conference Semi's without Jordan and had winning records.

Bill Walsh inherited a ****ing disaster in SF and he was 2-14 the year before he got there and he was rebuilding for 2 years before he implemented the WCO which changed everything. He also identified Jerry Rice in the mid 80's to keep the dynasty going. He drafted more HOF talent than Bill Belichick. He also drafted Montana, Lott, Haley, and Rice which is a murderers row of draftees.

Shula is probably the worst example because for a guy that coached with Marino and Unitas he had his best success with Griese. And he made the SB with 3 different QB's. He's also went to multiple championships in the 60's, 70's and 80's. And his team was winning well into the 1990's even though Shula clearly was in decline by that point.

Bill unlike most of these guys has a near declade long sample size without Brady and it's pretty bad (as in made the playoffs once)
 

DropKickFlutie

In the Starting Line-Up
Alot of these are poor arguments. Bill Belichick coached 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 2000, (2 games in 2001), 2008, (4 games in 2016) and 2020 without Brady. That's an 8 years and change sample size. It isn't small.

Vince Lombardi joined the Packers in 1959. Bart Starr was already there in 1957. Lombardi never had a losing season with the Packers including his first year where Starr wasn't starting. Lombardi made the NFL championship game his second year and then was rolling ever since. He retired for a year and came back to a totally new team and improved on their record having a winning season and then retiring for good.

Phil Jackson's not a great comparison because he never coached a single season without Jordan/Kobe/Shaq. What you can however say is that Kobe and Shaq were on the Lakers in 1996 and didn't win anything until the second year Phil got there AND Jordan was on the Bulls all the way back in 1984 and I don't think it's a coincidence that 2 years after Phil became the coach and implemented the triangle nobody could beat them. Oh and the Bulls still made the Conference Semi's without Jordan and had winning records.

Bill Walsh inherited a ****ing disaster in SF and he was 2-14 the year before he got there and he was rebuilding for 2 years before he implemented the WCO which changed everything. He also identified Jerry Rice in the mid 80's to keep the dynasty going. He drafted more HOF talent than Bill Belichick. He also drafted Montana, Lott, Haley, and Rice which is a murderers row of draftees.

Shula is probably the worst example because for a guy that coached with Marino and Unitas he had his best success with Griese. And he made the SB with 3 different QB's. He's also went to multiple championships in the 60's, 70's and 80's. And his team was winning well into the 1990's even though Shula clearly was in decline by that point.

Bill unlike most of these guys has a near declade long sample size without Brady and it's pretty bad (as in made the playoffs once)

To be fair Walsh didn't have the modern salary cap era. Belichick has drafted a ton of hall of famers.

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Tony2046

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
2019 Weekly Picks Winner
I don’t trust him as much as you do.

my point is exactly that. Brady covered everything so the « in Bill we trust » is the perfect example of it always work out for the patriots because Brady was here. Bill could do everything and it always worked because of Brady.

Bill never rebuilded a team. He always retooled it because he always had Brady.

All good points including your other posts. I'm going to wait until everything gets back to normal Covid wise before I judge BB. I think that it's a bit unfair to judge him without preseason and missed practices etc.
 

Doctor DDS

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Alot of these are poor arguments. Bill Belichick coached 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 2000, (2 games in 2001), 2008, (4 games in 2016) and 2020 without Brady. That's an 8 years and change sample size. It isn't small.

Vince Lombardi joined the Packers in 1959. Bart Starr was already there in 1957. Lombardi never had a losing season with the Packers including his first year where Starr wasn't starting. Lombardi made the NFL championship game his second year and then was rolling ever since. He retired for a year and came back to a totally new team and improved on their record having a winning season and then retiring for good.

Phil Jackson's not a great comparison because he never coached a single season without Jordan/Kobe/Shaq. What you can however say is that Kobe and Shaq were on the Lakers in 1996 and didn't win anything until the second year Phil got there AND Jordan was on the Bulls all the way back in 1984 and I don't think it's a coincidence that 2 years after Phil became the coach and implemented the triangle nobody could beat them. Oh and the Bulls still made the Conference Semi's without Jordan and had winning records.

Bill Walsh inherited a ****ing disaster in SF and he was 2-14 the year before he got there and he was rebuilding for 2 years before he implemented the WCO which changed everything. He also identified Jerry Rice in the mid 80's to keep the dynasty going. He drafted more HOF talent than Bill Belichick. He also drafted Montana, Lott, Haley, and Rice which is a murderers row of draftees.

Shula is probably the worst example because for a guy that coached with Marino and Unitas he had his best success with Griese. And he made the SB with 3 different QB's. He's also went to multiple championships in the 60's, 70's and 80's. And his team was winning well into the 1990's even though Shula clearly was in decline by that point.

Bill unlike most of these guys has a near declade long sample size without Brady and it's pretty bad (as in made the playoffs on
Did you ever consider that maybe BB was not a great coach when he first started? Does not matter to me that it may have taken him a few years to figure things out while with the Browns but for some of you that is the smoking gun. Has nothing to do with what he ultimately became and accomplished. Similar to how Brady was not a finished product when he joined the Pats and had to work his way up the depth chart.

The efforts you go to disparage the greatest coach in the history of the NFL is stunning. The team he coached went to 8 straight conference championship games. 13 total and 9 Super Bowls. He won 6. Bill Walsh went to 3 and he had at the time what was considered the GOAT at QB. He also did not have a salary cap. The fact BB dominated Walsh's career w/o all that HOF talent is actually a testament to BB as he could never have afforded to keep them. BB absolutely benefitted greatly from Brady. In the modern NFL no coach is capable of sustained success without a top QB. The difference between him and his contemporaries is the extent of their success. QBs like Rogers, Manning, Favre were all considered some of the greatest ever yet none of them sniffed the level of success BB and Brady did. You want to discount BB's contributions to those results - I won't.

You do a great job with your "not making the playoffs" bit so you can discount the 11-5 season he had with Cassell - well played. Walsh's 2 year rebuilding the 49ers don't count but all BB years with Browns do as does his first year with the Pats. Makes sense. No coach is good enough to overcome a bad QB and that is what the Pats have right now. If that issue is resolved I have little doubt the Pats will be successful again. Will they be Super Bowl contenders - probably not.

When Jackson coached his one year without a top 15 player all time he failed to make the finals. And then of course he took his brilliance and package of Zen to turn around the Knicks and left in disgrace. Luckily for him he was not the coach as it would have proven he could not do it all on his own. (almost as if great players matter) - He took over the Lakers as Kobe was entering his prime and their success was predicted by all. Do you think if BB took over the Chiefs this year that he would do OK?
 
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lancerman

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Did you ever consider that maybe BB was not a great coach when he first started? Does not matter to me that it may have taken him a few years to figure things out while with the Browns but for some of you that is the smoking gun. Has nothing to do with what he ultimately became and accomplished. Similar to how Brady was not a finished product when he joined the Pats and had to work his way up the depth chart.

The efforts you go to disparage the greatest coach in the history of the NFL is stunning. The team he coached went to 8 straight conference championship games. 13 total and 9 Super Bowls. He won 6. Bill Walsh went to 3 and he had at the time what was considered the GOAT at QB. He also did not have a salary cap. The fact BB dominated Walsh's career w/o all that HOF talent is actually a testament to BB as he could never have afforded to keep them. BB absolutely benefitted greatly from Brady. In the modern NFL no coach is capable of sustained success without a top QB. The difference between him and his contemporaries is the extent of their success. QBs like Rogers, Manning, Favre were all considered some of the greatest ever yet none of them sniffed the level of success BB and Brady did. You want to discount BB's contributions to those results - I won't.

You do a great job with your "not making the playoffs" bit so you can discount the 11-5 season he had with Cassell - well played. Walsh's 2 year rebuilding the 49ers don't count but all BB years with Browns do. Makes sense. No coach is good enough to overcome a bad QB and that is what the Pats have right now. If that issue is resolved I have little doubt the Pats will be successful again. Will they be Super Bowl contenders - probably not.

By the way - Jackson coached Bulls when Jordan was on hiatus and surprisingly they did not win it that year. (almost as if great players matter) - He took over the Lakers as Kobe was entering his prime and their success was predicted by all. Do you think if BB took over the Chiefs this year that he would do OK?
This is why I don't like to have these conversations. People on here just have different standards. People on here just want to excuse away 1991-1995 and the 2000 season as Bill being young. But then in the post I responded to we are criticizing Walsh for inheriting a team with a worse record than the Browns Bill inherited and making them a champion after a two year turnaround, criticizing Lombardi despite always having winning seasons and saying because he didn't make the playoffs in one year after he retired and came back. Or Jackson for winning titles with established teams within a year of joining when they weren't winning before?

Like what kind of argument is that? It took Walsh two years to win a Super Bowl so we are using that against him but we are forgiving Belichick for 6 years?

It just showed you weren't making an honest argument and were trying to be far more critical of other coaches for less than the struggles Bill had without Brady but then as soon as it was shifted back to Bill you instantly turned around and gave him far more rope.

Yes the team he coached went to 8 straight conference championships.... with Brady. The 2011 was crap defensively and Brady was carrying them, the 2013 team was garbage and injured to hell and was winning a bunch of close games and Brady was carrying them. They probably don't get past the Ravens in the divisional in 2014 if Brady doesn't mount two big comebacks to get out of 14 point deficits. The 2015 by the end was basically a walking corpse and Brady and Gronk were were the only good things about it, who knows what happens. Like the point of the comparison is Belichick without Brady and you instantly just want to make the argument meaningless by placing things he did with Brady. All the conference championship games and Super Bowls you mentioned.... required Brady.

Again you are ignoring context. Bill Walsh coached 10 years and retired. Bill is on his 26th. If you were comparing it to the pats it would basically be the same as Bill's 2000-2009. What happened in that timeframe.... Belichick won 3 SB's and went to 5 conference championships. He missed the playoffs 3 times. What happened for Walsh in his 10 year career? He won 3 Super Bowls, went to 4 conference championships, and missed the playoffs 3 times. He's basically one conference title game short. That's not a drastic difference. That's not dominating a career. Walsh retired earlier. Again you are being completely misleading with context to draw pretty conclusions.

The 11-5 season was coming off a 16-0 season where Bill retained virtually the same team minus the QB. It was also one of the easiest schedules the team had in Bill's tenure. There's a reason we didn't make the playoffs with an 11-5 season. So yeah he drastically underperformed and was unable to get in the playoffs on one of his easiest schedules with one of his strongest teams because the QB was missing and he had to settle for a pretty good back up.

Also I did mention Jackson's era 2 year stint without Jordan. You should read my comment again. He had winning seasons and made the playoffs and won series both times. Kobe also wasn't in his prime in 1999-2000. He probably didn't start peaking until 2003-4 and by that point Shaq was out the door and they needed to retool the team.
 

Doctor DDS

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
I understand you want to prove BB sucks. I'm just not buying it. If BB just retired when the team was at its peak he'd never get called out for a rebuild. My point has always been that a coach needs talented players to be successful. Brady if the GOAT and BB absolutely maximized his and the teams ability to be successful. You disagree and believe it was all Brady. Point made.
 
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