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Tony2046

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I think that now that Brady is gone we start to see cracks and imperfections in BB.

my feeling is that for 20 years of success Bill never really get much criticism for anything. When the team played bad it was always because of Brady. Now we can’t put the blame on Brady anymore and when we see the state of the roster, we start to see where Bill messed up. Now, it’s really the first time Bill receive criticism and what is happening he is already making excuses for the mistakes he had the last seven years.

if Brady was still here we are probably going 11-5 or even 12-4 with this team. And even with an early playoff exit I don’t think Bill would get an inch of criticism and Brady will get all the blame pretty much like last year.

Edit: my question is what happens if Bill has no winning season the next 3 years? Because there is really no evidence he can turn a team around without a great QB. He was not doing great with Bledsoe who was a pro bowl QB.

I look at it as a beautiful marriage that was destined to end. Both are responsible for the six Super Bowl Championships but can never decide the split. Just glad that it happened.

Bill definitely made some defensive calls that saved the game (Super Bowl 49) and Brady definitely made some throws that saved the game, ( Super Bowl 51).

Anyway no matter how this ends I will be forever grateful for what is ending. 9 Super Bowl appearances and Six wins. Wow.

Thanks to the both of them.
 

Lagaffe_07

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
I look at it as a beautiful marriage that was destined to end. Both are responsible for the six Super Bowl Championships but can never decide the split. Just glad that it happened.

Bill definitely made some defensive calls that saved the game (Super Bowl 49) and Brady definitely made some throws that saved the game, ( Super Bowl 51).

Anyway no matter how this ends I will be forever grateful for what is ending. 9 Super Bowl appearances and Six wins. Wow.

Thanks to the both of them.
I completely agree that they wouldn’t have been as successful without each other but it is also my belief that Brady make Bill look good more than the other way around.

the attitude Bill had toward Brady the last few years was screaming « I am the main reason this team was successful ». The comment he had about the 12 stitches in Brady’s hand before or after the AFCG against the Jaguars was pretty dismissive and that irritates me. They were also reports that Bill and many coaches in the organization believed that they could win with any QB.
 

1960Pats

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The Pats were WORSE last year than this year?

No way. Gilmore was lights out, the defense was top notch - Van Noy, Shelton, Collins, Hightower, Chung. They gave up 61 points in the first 8 games, going 8-0. Are you kidding me?
You're right. I was thinking of the offense.
 

Tony2046

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I completely agree that they wouldn’t have been as successful without each other but it is also my belief that Brady make Bill look good more than the other way around.

the attitude Bill had toward Brady the last few years was screaming « I am the main reason this team was successful ». The comment he had about the 12 stitches in Brady’s hand before or after the AFCG against the Jaguars was pretty dismissive and that irritates me. They were also reports that Bill and many coaches in the organization believed that they could win with any QB.

I'm just saying that it's impossible to decipher who was more responsible for the dynasty. The chemistry between the two worked to our benefit for twenty years so I'll just be satisfied with the results.

In Bill I trust.

Let's ****ing go.
 

1960Pats

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I'm just saying that it's impossible to decipher who was more responsible for the dynasty. The chemistry between the two worked to our benefit for twenty years so I'll just be satisfied with the results.

In Bill I trust.

Let's ****ing go.
It really was the perfect storm.
Bill the great authoritative HC combined with Tom the great QB who respects authority. I don't believe that any egotistical QB would flourish under Bill the way Tom did.
 

jmt57

Moderator
Staff member
if Brady was still here we are probably going 11-5 or even 12-4 with this team.

You completely lost me with that statement.

As a reminder, the following players are not on the 2020 Patriot defense:

Rank - 2019 Snap Count - % - Player
3 - 814 - 81% - Kyle Van Noy
4 - 813 - 81% - Jamie Collins
5 - 723 - 72% - Dont'a Hightower
7 - 657 - 65% - Duron Harmon
8 - 642 - 64% - Patrick Chung
11 - 402 - 49% - Danny Shelton

And on offense the 2020 Patriots do not have Ted Karras, Marcus Cannon, Julian Edelman, Josh Gordon, Ben Watson, Matt LaCosse, Brandon Bolden, James Develin or Antonio Brown. Departed players represent your #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #11, #12, #15 and #16 players for 2019 offensive snap counts. Three starters from the 2019 offensive line are gone - we all know how much the OL requires cohesiveness and continuity to be effective - in a year with very limited offseason practice time, no OTAs and no preseason games. The resulting lack of depth on the OL has been obvious this season, with the Denver game a prime example.

Collectively the departed players - not including Brady - who are not here now appeared in 6,310 offensive snaps in 2019.


Would the 2020 Pats record be better with Brady? Of course.

But to suggest that that one single change transforms this team into an 11 or 12 win team is laughable.
 

Lagaffe_07

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Three starters on the offensive line are gone - we all know how much the OL requires cohesiveness and continuity to be effective - in a year with very limited offseason practice time, no OTAs and no preseason games.
What ??? I don’t know if you were watching the games this year because the OL is playing really great this year which was not the case last year. It is one of our bright spot.

the running game is one of the best in the league. Last year it was one of the worst.

Last year Brady had to count pretty exclusively on his WR and TE. This year the running game would open play action a lot. And Brady would destroy teams with his play action even with this team.

if Brady wast still here we would 5-2 now not 2-5 even 6-1 because there is now way we lose in Seattle, against Denver and Buffalo. I’ll argue that we even win the KC game with him.
 

jmt57

Moderator
Staff member
What ??? I don’t know if you were watching the games this year because the OL is playing really great this year which was not the case last year. It is one of our bright spot.

the running game is one of the best in the league. Last year it was one of the worst.

Last year Brady had to count pretty exclusively on his WR and TE. This year the running game would open play action a lot. And Brady would destroy teams with his play action even with this team.

if Brady wast still here we would 5-2 now not 2-5 even 6-1 because there is now way we lose in Seattle, against Denver and Buffalo. I’ll argue that we even win the KC game with him.
So you are actually saying that other than the QB position, the 2020 Patriots are better than the 2019 Patriots?
 

Lagaffe_07

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
So you are actually saying that other than the QB position, the 2020 Patriots are better than the 2019 Patriots?

i think they are worst defensively for sure but I also think they would be better offensively with Brady this year compare to last year.
 

Lagaffe_07

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
In Bill I trust
I don’t trust him as much as you do.

my point is exactly that. Brady covered everything so the « in Bill we trust » is the perfect example of it always work out for the patriots because Brady was here. Bill could do everything and it always worked because of Brady.

Bill never rebuilded a team. He always retooled it because he always had Brady.
 

gobesmug

On the Game Day Roster
Bill the GM has been incredible for most of his career in NE, but he certainly failed the last couple seasons.

His biggest failure was bidding against Brady. He didn't think Brady could play elite football into his mid forties.

Bill had the chance to lock Brady up until he was 45. It was always Brady goal and desire to play until 45 and Bill didn't believe it was possible. Still remains to be seen but Brady is still playing lights out when he has talent.

So Bill pissed off his future HOF QB by only wanting to go year to year with him.

Bill absolutely failed the 2019 draft. Instead of taking the best route running Wr in AJ Brown, he took Harry.

Imagine if last year Bill signed Brady with a guaranteed contract to 2022 which Brady wanted, then drafted AJ Brown and DK Metcalf instead of Harry and JoeJuan.

With Brown, Metcalf, and Edelman last year that offense would have been potent and paired with that def would have been a favorite for winning the Superbowl and right now this team would be sitting at 5-2 to 7-0
 

Lagaffe_07

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Bill the GM has been incredible for most of his career in NE, but he certainly failed the last couple seasons.

His biggest failure was bidding against Brady. He didn't think Brady could play elite football into his mid forties.

Bill had the chance to lock Brady up until he was 45. It was always Brady goal and desire to play until 45 and Bill didn't believe it was possible. Still remains to be seen but Brady is still playing lights out when he has talent.

So Bill pissed off his future HOF QB by only wanting to go year to year with him.

Bill absolutely failed the 2019 draft. Instead of taking the best route running Wr in AJ Brown, he took Harry.

Imagine if last year Bill signed Brady with a guaranteed contract to 2022 which Brady wanted, then drafted AJ Brown and DK Metcalf instead of Harry and JoeJuan.

With Brown, Metcalf, and Edelman last year that offense would have been potent and paired with that def would have been a favorite for winning the Superbowl and right now this team would be sitting at 5-2 to 7-0
Bill is a really incredible coach but I don’t think he is an incredible GM. Brady made it look like that most of the time.

and in the end, I don’t think Bill was thinking Brady could not play anymore. I think that since he had to trade Jimmy Bill wants to prove that he can do it without Brady more than anything. we can say they are both equally responsible but I think in their mind they both want to prove they were responsible for the success. That’s why they parted ways
 

jmt57

Moderator
Staff member
i think they are worst defensively for sure but I also think they would be better offensively with Brady this year compare to last year.
"would be better this year compared to last year"

I'm just not remotely close to seeing what you are seeing.


Tight Ends
This topic has been beaten to death in multiple threads, but let's compare the 2020 TEs to the 2019 group.

2020 Ranking - 2019 Ranking
1.) Ryan Izzo -------- Ben Watson
2.) Dalton Keene ---- Matt LaCosse
3.) TBD (zero stats) -- Ryan Izzo

The Pats have gone from bad to atrocious at Tight End. On Monday night they will probably be using an undrafted defensive lineman at the position, who played some TE in college (17 receptions in four years). The position has produced ten receptions for 122 yards and zero TD in seven games. It's never a good thing when your #3 option on a bad unit is elevated to starter.


Wide Receiver
Another topic that has been the wrath of armchair GMs this season - but rightfully so.

2020 Ranking --- 2019 Ranking
(Slot) Isaiah Ford -- Julian Edelman
1.) Damiere Byrd -- Phillip Dorsett
2.) N'Keal Harry --- Josh Gordon
3.) Jakobi Meyers - Mohammed Sanu
4.) Isaiah Zuber --- Jakobi Meyers
5.) Gunner Olszewski - N'Keal Harry

And another position that has gone from bad to atrocious. How can this group possibly be considered to be an improvement over 2019?


Running Backs
Damien Harris and JJ Taylor are definitely positives for the 2020 group, but that is offset by lower productivity this season from Sony Michel and James White. Since the topic is about how much better off the 2020 Pats would be with Brady, then we really should adjust for Newton's rushing numbers; Cam leads the Pats in rushing yards and has run for six of the Pats ten rushing touchdowns. Overall I would say the unit is about the same, perhaps slightly better.


From 2019 to 2020 the Patriots have deteriorated at DL, LB, S, WR, TE and K - with little or no improvement at the other non-QB positions. It is not realistic to believe this would continue to be a 12 win team if only Tom Brady was still in Foxborough.
 

captain stone

Hall of Fame Poster
So you are actually saying that other than the QB position, the 2020 Patriots are better than the 2019 Patriots?
If Brady were still here, we would be 5-2 right now (losses to SF & @ Seattle) on our way to 10-6 tops and a likely one-and-done...

With Scam Newton here, we're going 6-10 tops, hopefully closer to 2-14...
 

Lagaffe_07

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
"would be better this year compared to last year"

I'm just not remotely close to seeing what you are seeing.


Tight Ends
This topic has been beaten to death in multiple threads, but let's compare the 2020 TEs to the 2019 group.

2020 Ranking - 2019 Ranking
1.) Ryan Izzo -------- Ben Watson
2.) Dalton Keene ---- Matt LaCosse
3.) TBD (zero stats) -- Ryan Izzo

The Pats have gone from bad to atrocious at Tight End. On Monday night they will probably be using an undrafted defensive lineman at the position, who played some TE in college (17 receptions in four years). The position has produced ten receptions for 122 yards and zero TD in seven games. It's never a good thing when your #3 option on a bad unit is elevated to starter.


Wide Receiver
Another topic that has been the wrath of armchair GMs this season - but rightfully so.

2020 Ranking --- 2019 Ranking
(Slot) Isaiah Ford -- Julian Edelman
1.) Damiere Byrd -- Phillip Dorsett
2.) N'Keal Harry --- Josh Gordon
3.) Jakobi Meyers - Mohammed Sanu
4.) Isaiah Zuber --- Jakobi Meyers
5.) Gunner Olszewski - N'Keal Harry

And another position that has gone from bad to atrocious. How can this group possibly be considered to be an improvement over 2019?


Running Backs
Damien Harris and JJ Taylor are definitely positives for the 2020 group, but that is offset by lower productivity this season from Sony Michel and James White. Since the topic is about how much better off the 2020 Pats would be with Brady, then we really should adjust for Newton's rushing numbers; Cam leads the Pats in rushing yards and has run for six of the Pats ten rushing touchdowns. Overall I would say the unit is about the same, perhaps slightly better.


From 2019 to 2020 the Patriots have deteriorated at DL, LB, S, WR, TE and K - with little or no improvement at the other non-QB positions. It is not realistic to believe this would continue to be a 12 win team if only Tom Brady was still in Foxborough.
One we have not deteriorated at K. We have the same kicker as last year and his playing good this year.

if Brady was still here Asiasi would have seen the ball already and white production would be up as well as Edelman.

Now the big point you miss is that last year we had no OL and no running game we needed to pass the ball to move the sticks. So the D played the pass almost everytime doubling Edelman and playing man.

this year, with the good OL and the running game we have, teams cannot play the pass exclusively and Brady and McDaniels would have exploited that.

The running game is a mile better than last year the fact that you say that is offset by Sony and white production shows that you are pretty much not watching the games.

last year: 3.8 y/a
This year: 5.1 y/a
 

jmt57

Moderator
Staff member
If Brady were still here, we would be 5-2 right now (losses to SF & @ Seattle) on our way to 10-6 tops and a likely one-and-done...

With Scam Newton here, we're going 6-10 tops, hopefully closer to 2-14...
I don't disagree with that assessment at all; I was thinking 9-7 myself.

I just don't understand the concept by some that the 2020 Patriots would be equal or better than the 2019 Patriots, with the hypothetical sole change at QB. The 2020 roster became appreciably worse at so many other positions, to me it is obvious that their record was going to drop - with or without TB12. The drop-off in talent also had a ripple effect, with backups elevated to starters and depth becoming a glaring issue any time somebody has been injured.
 
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