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Tony2046

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Did you ever consider that maybe BB was not a great coach when he first started? Does not matter to me that it may have taken him a few years to figure things out while with the Browns but for some of you that is the smoking gun. Has nothing to do with what he ultimately became and accomplished. Similar to how Brady was not a finished product when he joined the Pats and had to work his way up the depth chart.

The efforts you go to disparage the greatest coach in the history of the NFL is stunning. The team he coached went to 8 straight conference championship games. 13 total and 9 Super Bowls. He won 6. Bill Walsh went to 3 and he had at the time what was considered the GOAT at QB. He also did not have a salary cap. The fact BB dominated Walsh's career w/o all that HOF talent is actually a testament to BB as he could never have afforded to keep them. BB absolutely benefitted greatly from Brady. In the modern NFL no coach is capable of sustained success without a top QB. The difference between him and his contemporaries is the extent of their success. QBs like Rogers, Manning, Favre were all considered some of the greatest ever yet none of them sniffed the level of success BB and Brady did. You want to discount BB's contributions to those results - I won't.

You do a great job with your "not making the playoffs" bit so you can discount the 11-5 season he had with Cassell - well played. Walsh's 2 year rebuilding the 49ers don't count but all BB years with Browns do as does his first year with the Pats. Makes sense. No coach is good enough to overcome a bad QB and that is what the Pats have right now. If that issue is resolved I have little doubt the Pats will be successful again. Will they be Super Bowl contenders - probably not.

When Jackson coached his one year without a top 15 player all time he failed to make the finals. And then of course he took his brilliance and package of Zen to turn around the Knicks and left in disgrace. Luckily for him he was not the coach as it would have proven he could not do it all on his own. (almost as if great players matter) - He took over the Lakers as Kobe was entering his prime and their success was predicted by all. Do you think if BB took over the Chiefs this year that he would do OK?

Excellent post. Neither BB or TB get six without each other. By far the most successful HC/QB combo in the history of the NFL.

All of this hoopering and hollering while BB is getting things reoriented during a Covid induced season is just nonsense.
 
This years Pats team is worse than last year in every aspect of the game.
Indeed, and how many games did the defence win for us leading up to 8-0? To suggest 12 and 4 last year was down to Brady(as the guy you quoted did) is laughable. The season before we were faltering and went on a playoff run because we started running the ball. The Superbowl win vs LA is on the D. Some very short memories here.
 
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The fair way to sort this, theoretically speaking, technically impossible of course, would be to repeat the season, have Tom Brady stay with this car crash of a team, sprinkle in some covid, and have BB leave. Then we have a basis of comparison.
Comparing Toms performance with Tampa this season with BBs performance with this team is redundant. Tom isnt the only player Bill has lost. If you want to see his value you have to remove ONLY him. Some of the logic employed in the comparisons I am seeing is Neanderthal.
 
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One-If-By-Sea

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
At the end of day QB is the most impactful position in the NFL. A great QB trumps a great HC everytime.

Did you watch the Bucs game Sunday night? Obviously the Saints coaching schemes confused Brady. The Saints HC trumped the GOAT QB. You might consider a more balanced take in the future.
 

gobesmug

On the Game Day Roster
Did you watch the Bucs game Sunday night? Obviously the Saints coaching schemes confused Brady. The Saints HC trumped the GOAT QB. You might consider a more balanced take in the future.
Did you see the QB on the other side. How good is Bill looking without the GOAT QB. 2-5 is pathetic. You need a more balanced opinion.

Brady is still 6-3, an it was pretty obvious last night that BA is not a great HC. So who is doing better, the great QB with an ave HC at 6-3 or the great HC at 2-5 with a former MVP QB on his roster?

My perspective is accurate, yours is not.
 

sb1

Pro Bowl Player
Yes he had a 11-5 record with Matt Cassell but Cassell wasn't a scrub either. Cassell 2 seasons later with the Chiefs went to the playoffs, won an offensive player of the month award and even went to the probowl.
He certainly was a scrub in preseason. Was probably a cut candidate after a pathetic preseason and then turned into a decent QB both with us and the Chiefs. That's 100% on the coaching.
 

sb1

Pro Bowl Player
Indeed, and how many games did the defence win for us leading up to 8-0? To suggest 12 and 4 last year was down to Brady(as the guy you quoted did) is laughable. The season before we were faltering and went on a playoff run because we started running the ball. The Superbowl win vs LA is on the D. Some very short memories here.
Put Brady or any other competent QB on this year's team. Probably make the playoffs.

But there's no reason to think they'd win any more playoff games than they did last year.
 
Did you see the QB on the other side. How good is Bill looking without the GOAT QB. 2-5 is pathetic. You need a more balanced opinion.

Brady is still 6-3, an it was pretty obvious last night that BA is not a great HC. So who is doing better, the great QB with an ave HC at 6-3 or the great HC at 2-5 with a former MVP QB on his roster?

My perspective is accurate, yours is not.
Last night was Bradys worse ever loss. Coincidence? Yes Im joking.
Are you seriously making a call on this after 8 games, when they played over 300 together. Season isn't even over. Bill has lost alot more than QB. Your perspective is about as far from accurate as it is possible to be.
 
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sb1

Pro Bowl Player
I understand you want to prove BB sucks. I'm just not buying it. If BB just retired when the team was at its peak he'd never get called out for a rebuild. My point has always been that a coach needs talented players to be successful. Brady if the GOAT and BB absolutely maximized his and the teams ability to be successful. You disagree and believe it was all Brady. Point made.
Any argument who penalizes Belichick for losses after the plug was pulled on the Browns franchise is a good indicator to me that it's not an argument to be taken seriously.
 

One-If-By-Sea

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Did you see the QB on the other side. How good is Bill looking without the GOAT QB. 2-5 is pathetic. You need a more balanced opinion.

Brady is still 6-3, an it was pretty obvious last night that BA is not a great HC. So who is doing better, the great QB with an ave HC at 6-3 or the great HC at 2-5 with a former MVP QB on his roster?

My perspective is accurate, yours is not.

I never said anything about BB. Very weird response.
 

gobesmug

On the Game Day Roster
He certainly was a scrub in preseason. Was probably a cut candidate after a pathetic preseason and then turned into a decent QB both with us and the Chiefs. That's 100% on the coaching.
Preseason is the worst metric to determine if a player is good or not. Look at a player like crab legs Cable, he looked like a stud. Also Kevin O'connell was deemed the future QB of the franchise, and posters on this board were on board with trading Brady away.

Put simply, Bill is a great HC and used Preseason to test players out. It's not about what plays are made, it's about how the players fill their assignments.

While fans get impressed seeing a QB run around the pocket and either make a first down run or pass, a HC sees a player failing to study the defense and make a read from the pocket.

It's about what a player does in the regular season, not the preseason, that matters.
 

gobesmug

On the Game Day Roster
I never said anything about BB. Very weird response.
Not weird. I said nothing about Brady, but you gleefully brought up his performance as a reason to why great QBs vs great HC favors great HC. I brought up BBs current season performance, a great HC, as a counter to your point.

No great HC or great QB win every game. It's not possible. But HOF QBs career winning percentages are much higher than HOF coaches, in the modern NFL. BB is the perfect example of that.

BB is labeled the GOAT HC, but he has a losing record when he doesn't have a good to great QB playing for him. It's not a knock against BB, it's proof that great QB play is more important.

Look at John Harbaurgh. He won a superbowl the one year Flacco played great. Then after Flacco declined drastically, he was being talked about as a HC that might get fired. Then they draft a QB that won the MVP and Harbaurgh is lauded as a great HC again.
 

captain stone

Hall of Fame Poster
I don't disagree with that assessment at all; I was thinking 9-7 myself.

I just don't understand the concept by some that the 2020 Patriots would be equal or better than the 2019 Patriots, with the hypothetical sole change at QB. The 2020 roster became appreciably worse at so many other positions, to me it is obvious that their record was going to drop - with or without TB12. The drop-off in talent also had a ripple effect, with backups elevated to starters and depth becoming a glaring issue any time somebody has been injured.
Yep, improvements in the OL/running game have been completely offset by the even-worse collection of "talent" at WR & TE...The defense is also much Much worse than last season...And the historically easy first-half schedule last season also has to be accounted-for...
 

captain stone

Hall of Fame Poster
Last night was Bradys worse ever loss. Coincidence? Yes Im joking.
Are you seriously making a call on this after 8 games (jumping the gun doesnt tend to pan out well eh Donald?), when they played over 300 together. Season isn't even over. Bill has lost alot more than QB. Your perspective is about as far from accurate as it is possible to be.
Keep your feckin political bullsh!t out of a football forum.
 
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