Discussion in 'NFL Football Forum' started by ctpatsfan77, Nov 3, 2013.
There was nothing wrong with my comments.
I have great respect for Ken and have little doubt that I would enjoy having a beer with him. And I greatly enjoyed learning about his background.
Having said that, this is a treacherous turn in the conversation, if for no other reason than it is all but impossible to speculate from a great distance about a matter as intensely private as one's sexual preference without indulging in stereotypes.
You choose to ignore the words being posted, I see. Let's try it again, and see if you can deal with it rather than avoiding it, this time:
I pointed this out, and showed the video, in response to your comment:
Despite the speculations of people here, and despite your being 'very dubious', we've got nothing that shows Incognito's OL teammates upset with his language beyond anything Martin may be saying. What we have, in fact, is the opposite.
I have turned from initially condemning Incognito (because he's a dirty player), to believing his story a bit more than Martin's. The original transcripts of the voicemail provided no context and looked horrible in print. I, as well as many others on the board, considered it a shut case. But as Incognito's teammates backed him up, and he explained the context of his correspondence, his story was more credible.
My buddies and I break balls and call each other outrageous things, we know there isn't any offense intended or taken. Nobody outside the Dolphins locker room or maybe even Incognito and Martin themselves know their relationship dynamic, but it is possible that this was a normal tone of communication between them.
I can't defend the use of the N-word by anybody, but I'm leaning toward believing that it was not intentional bullying by Incognito.
We may never know the truth.
I refuse to let this crap rent space in my head....that's THEIR problem, the players, the team...it'll all play out.
Just take a look at the Alec Baldwin/stalker court case....until it went to court and all the cards were played, there was a ton of speculation and "what ifs" flying around...now we all know...SHE IS A WHACKJOB.
could be the same thing at work here...
I'm basically in the same boat with you on this. However, two things still seem very much out of whack and are what the media completely ignores in their obsession with the N-word:
1) He did not call him a "n****". He called him a "half-n*****". The media keeps harping on the "n****" and not the "half". THAT is the most racially charged term in today's society. The 'half-breed' epithet. Biracial people can be viciously ostracized by BOTH blacks and whites - -so it isn't too much of a shock that the black Dolphin players had as little trouble with this as the white Dolphin players. But aside from the N-word aspect, - How is "F- you, you're still a rookie" or "I'll slap your REAL mother in the face" considered 'bringing someone in closer to the team'?
2) The multiple posts by "idrd1994" over at Finheaven.com (who, unless someone is pulling a VERY thoroughly researched prank, IS Richie Incognito, Sr.) that have since stopped. He even uses the same "bring it" that Icognito Jr. used in his text to Schefter. Given what is in that last posting, there's ALOT more to that story.
Once again, always a pleasure....
and also again, you are making a broad assumption about what the players think of his actions based on a short video. What happened after the video? Did anyone on the video object to this behavior? How would you know one way or another? You take as fact that everyone was fine with RI because no one stood up and complained while he was doing it. That, sir, is an assumption and shows very little about what people felt about what he did.
It has been widely reported that most teammates are standing behind Incognito and calling him an honorary black. I'm not sure what more evidence you are looking for.
I don't think any one detail of the specific insults and attacks on Martin matters that much. If this hadn't all happened in a football locker room or other special-case situation, we would all be in agreement that the behavior toward him was appalling. The only possible defenses contain huge elements of "Well, that's just how this particular subculture is."
Martin's story, in essence, is that he was harshly bullied, played along for as long as he could stand it, and snapped. Incognito's story, in essence, is that he meant well, that Martin wasn't particularly singled out, and that Martin sure was persuasive when he seemed to go along with the treatment.
The thing is -- Incognito's and Martin's stories don't really conflict with each other.
Its been "widely reported" by one source and one quote from one player. The evidence I am looking for is for a group of players to stand up and say publicly that they are OK with being called a nigger by a white player. You've made numerous statements about making assumptions and at this point thats all this is, is speculation. You can look at the video and claim everyone is fine with it because they don't immediately stand up and tell RI to cut it out, but you have no idea how they feel about being called a nigger by a white player. If you and Deus think you can, great, but its purely speculation which is what you are getting on everyone else about.
It could have happened in the neighborhood, the dorm, the street corner.
The distinction is AT WORK.
That is the story people have inferred but Martin has not specifically said so. Martin, in fact, really hasn't said anything.
I think Martin needs to tell his story before we can determine that.
By that standard there is virtually nothing in the world you can believe.
I think it is reasonable to assume that the support of Incongnito, the example on tape, and the reports coming out of Miami, none of which have given any indication of anyone having a problem with it, adds up to no one did.
If you want the burden of proof to be someone making a statement and nothing less is acceptable, that is up to you.
It meets my standard of enough proof. The speculation I am objecting to is based upon much less, or no evidence.
Speculation, IMO, is a conclusion based upon a lack of sufficient facts. I think there are sufficient facts here to draw this conclusion with some certainty.
We will never reach black and white facts on many issues, but this one is only barely in the gray.
You don't seem to know what an assumption is. For the third time now, read what I posted, and note the bolded part:
Now, the video doesn't show anyone having a problem with what he's saying, and THE PLAYERS HAVE SAID THAT THEY WERE OK WITH THE THINGS HE'D SAID TO THEM AND THAT HE WAS AN 'HONORARY BLACK MAN'.
I'm not making any assumptions, at all. I'm going strictly based upon the evidence at hand, and just laying that evidence out there. You're the one who makes a leap from "nothing shows" to "Everyone was fine", when I stated nothing of the kind, and who's "very dubious" despite the testimony of the players themselves. In other words, you're the one assuming players are lying, while I'm just passing on the reports of what was said and the video of the incident in the bar.
You've now made the same statement numerous times while not showing anything other than a sketchy video and some assumptions (yes, what you are doing is assuming events and what people are thinking by watching a video). The video is only evidence of one thing: RI is a jerk. Thats it, you can't assume that the players accepted it or enjoyed it or wanted him to do it again or anything else. Anything else you infer from watching the video is an assumption. Also, where is all of this testimony you are referring to? Is there more than simply one or two players making comments (which are almost assuredly second hand in nature since they couldn't possibly know what RI said or what Martin felt about what was said to him). Tannehill came out and said he thought RI and Martin were best friends. If all of the testimony you are referring to is as spot on as this I would say you need to look at it in a very different light because he couldn't have been more incorrect in his assessment of the situation. It was pretty much the opposite of what he thought it was.
Do you accept his lawyer as having spoken for him?
That's simply not true. Either you haven't bothered to read the thread, or you've decided to completely ignore it.
And, yet again, you get it wrong. It's evidence of an absence (in this case, the absence of a negative response), which was what my point was.
I'm trying to figure out whether the problem is that you don't know what the word assumption means, or that you do know what it means but prefer to keep tossing out strawmen.
Reading is fundamental. You should actually read the thread, and the articles, and listen to the Carter clip, before posting.
Here's me, for example, AVOIDING assumptions:
And here are current, and former, OL teammates talking about the "N" word, its impact on how they viewed Incognito, and the issues or, rather, the absence of any issues, it caused among those not named Jonathan Martin (and even among those who are named Jonathan Martin):
Richie Incognito never bullied Jonathan Martin, Lydon Murtha says | The MMQB with Peter King
New England Patriots Forums - PatsFans.com Patriots Fan Messageboard
Again, I'm not the one making assumptions here. You're the one doing that.
I suppose, but there was not enough detail in that statement to answer the quesitons I have.
To the surprise of (probably) no one, the plot thickens:
This is just amazing. The Miami Dolphins don't have any time for football any more after a dimwitted player tweets and leaves texts and voicemails. Poor them.
The Patriots, meanwhile, had a key player jailed for murder, dealt with it, moved on, and now focus strictly on what they are all employed to do. That, my friends, is the difference between the Patriots leadership and most other franchises in professional sports.
Yeah, but an arrest in the offseason kind of makes it easy to do a clean break.
That being said, I credit BB for never commenting on stuff (which drives us fans crazy) and allows for the team to be sealed off. Spygate, Ochocinco, Tebow, Hernandez.......nothing derails the train.
Separate names with a comma.