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Incognito suspended indefinitely by Dolphins

Discussion in 'NFL Football Forum' started by ctpatsfan77, Nov 3, 2013.

  1. UK_Pat37

    UK_Pat37 Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    I haven't even read what his lawyer has said. That's the conclusion I alone came to.

    I would be interested to hear anyone else who has been trained in counselling to hear their opinions. I don't think many would disagree with me.

    The bullied almost ALWAYS appease the bullier. The rest of the time they run away and hide.

    I'm 100% buying it.

    We will never get to the bottom of it, and none of us will ever understand what has gone on here. It's better left, both parties come to a mutual agreement and Jonathan Martin come to some kind of settlement to leave in order to try and find somewhere else. Sadly, I find it highly unlikely he will fully settle anywhere else.

    You know what the real sad thing is? Incognito will probably get a fine, maybe a ban, then continue on. The only guy who is going to really lose out, regardless of what happens, is Jonathan Martin.

    Given some of the opinions on how he just needed to 'man up' and 'stop being a *****' along with comments along those lines, makes me lose all faith in humanity. What little I had of it anyway.

    Bullying is a global-wide issue that people continuously fail to address and understand. Why is that so? Because so many people continuously fail to speak out. Then you all wonder why that is? It's because of pathetic reactions and insults directed Martin's way for doing the right thing.

    This should be a great example set. A great advertisement as to why more prople should speak out. All it has done is make more people more afraid.

    People seem to think you need to be tougher mentally to be a footballer in your career than say a doctor, laywer or even simple jobs like a secretary or warehouse worker. That's bull. These guys having it bloody easy.

    Then we go on and wonder why we don't hear about it too often, and why we fail to understand it :rolleyes:

    We are truly blinded.
     
  2. groganbootleg

    groganbootleg Practice Squad Player

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    I don't have any issues with what RI did here. Of course he wants to get his story out. The issue I have is with Glazer who is supposed to be a journalist not a PR guy for his favorite players whom he also has an outside business relationship with. He needed to a) disclose that stuff and b) make sure everyone knew this was a statement by Ri and not an interview by a journalist trying to get to the heart of a matter.

    Also, just listened to Hines Ward on Morning Joe who made the same basic statement I heard numerous ex-players make over the weekend - this doesn't happen normally in locker rooms, its not OK to use the N word, and its really not ok for a white guy to call a black guy.
     
  3. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You 2 may be banned for having an adult, reasonable exchange of ideas
     
  4. Zeus

    Zeus PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No problem here and no need to apologize on my part.
     
  5. Gronkandez

    Gronkandez 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    a) he did disclose it. He said he's been friendly with RI for five years, as RI as worked out at his MMA program/gym. I don't believe it's a business relationship.

    b) He asked all the right questions. It wasn't an interogation style interview but RI got his say and it was informative. Part of why he granted the interview to Glazer, is that RI hates Schefter (or at least I would imagine that's part of the reason)

    c) re: the Hines Ward comments, that is a Dolphins locker room issue, not an RI issue. The black guys granted him honorary black man status. It doesn't matter if people outside the locker have an issue with it.
     
  6. groganbootleg

    groganbootleg Practice Squad Player

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    I think it is an RI issue and the owner has come out now and stated numerous times that it is not acceptable behavior. We are also hearing from plenty of ex-players is that this is unacceptable as well - Shannon Sharpe had a great take on it. This "honorary black man" status seems very dubious to me.

     
  7. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I should have been more clear. My point was that the alleged items are very much in dispute.
     
  8. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I take that as Sharpe saying his idea of how black people are supposed to act is better than the black people on the Dolphins.
    I continue to see this race angle in this story where the black people who accepted Incognito are being maligned for 'choosing' him over Martin, and the motivation is race.
     
  9. patsfan-1982

    patsfan-1982 In the Starting Line-Up

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    we all know Incognito is a head case but he said his side of the story it still dose not make it right but we wont really know anything until jonathan martin makes his next move, if he is scared and wants the bullying to stop then the Miami Dolphins should pay for his therapy and maybe next year he can play again,


    but if he is looking to sue the fish for millions in pain and suffering then IMO he is just playing the race and bullying card and no NFL will ever let him play for them again because there will be lots of fines passed out by roger goodell
     
  10. Urgent

    Urgent In the Starting Line-Up

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    While NFL locker rooms are inhabited by huge rich young men adopting a warrior culture, they are owned by rich old men from a corporate culture.

    Many of them own other businesses. This type of behavior, whether consensual or not, would not be permitted in other workplaces.

    I don't shave my new employees heads. I don't urinate on them. I don't tape them to the lightpost in the parking lot. I don't make them pay for my vacation. But I expect them to have my back, to drop other commitments when necessary, to find a way to deliver a challenging request in the face of intense competition. I expect just as much loyalty and dedication and effort.

    They don't get five months off. They don't get million dollar signing bonuses.

    And they don't get to treat anyone else with hostility or disrespect.

    Doesn't matter if this is consensual.
    Doesn't matter if this is traditional.

    NFL owners will just not permit this type of behavior to run out of control at their businesses.

    And games will still be played.
    The players got over having female reporters. That was completely untraditional, and a little Zeke may have been waved here and there the first couple years, but games were still played.

    Yankees players can't have long hair or beards, but they seem able to compete OK.
    Beer after the games was traditional and consensual in the Red Sox club house, and ownership forced some change there. The Sox seemed to adapt to that OK.

    There will be change.
    Some players will resist.
    Games will be played.
     
  11. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    1.) Ross is a liar: "I was appalled. I think anybody would be appalled," Ross said. "When you first read that text that was reported, to me I didn't realize people would talk, text or speak that way."

    Come on. Even inside his billionaire bubble, he knows that's a load of crap.

    2.) Call it what you will, but "honorary black man" is real. Whether or not it is legit in this case is a question that we can only guess about. What we do know is that Incognito has said the word in front of his OL teammates before, and it was not shown to be a problem.

    3.) People say things are "unacceptable" all the time when they are asked about it, and then they turn around and behave in a manner that shows they didn't believe what they were saying.
     
  12. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    "Not acceptable" also often comes in retrospect.
     
  13. groganbootleg

    groganbootleg Practice Squad Player

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    Based on what exactly? His teammates not beating him to a pulp after he did it? You can't assume it wasn't a problem for everyone or even anyone based on the lack of actions by people who were there. Its just as plausible that this guy is such an a-hole that no one wanted to take him on and just let it go. The guy who had to sit next to him and deal with his BS day in and day out finally decided enough was enough. So we have at least one guy who felt that it was a problem.
     
  14. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Feel free to go back into the thread and read about the reactions. I'm not going to babysit you through this. As for what's plausible, one of us is speculating (you), the other is just noting what's been reported and what's not been reported (me).

    Does Pouncey look like he's got an issue here?

    http://www.thejuicyonline.com/2013/11/richie-incognito-says-n-word-in-bar-on.html

    There's been plenty of ridiculous posted in this thread. Don't add to it.
     
  15. patfanken

    patfanken PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This is my first foray into this thread. I write now because I think I now have a plausible scenario that makes it all make sense to me. But before I get into it let me
    add some subtext..

    I grew up in a housing project in Dorchester and have always lived in very diverse neighborhoods. Years later I taught at a Jr HS in the same neighborhood beginning in 1969. By then it was a predominantly black neighborhood and when my kids found out I grew up in the Franklin Field projects they thought I must be the toughest white guy they knew

    I taught almost 7 years before I taught a white kid and it took busing to make that happen (Yes Martha, there WAS defacto segregation occurring in the Boston Public Schools, and the judge made the correct decision and then totally screwed up the solution....but that's another discussion.)

    A lot has been said in this thread about the "N" word. In those days it had a distinct meaning. It described someone who was not sharp, lazy, stupid or disorderly, not necessarily someone who was black. It was a word the kids often used with each other, AND I'm embarrassed to say, that in the proper context I used as well....with no problem. Today I cannot imagine using that expression under any context, but on that day and time, it came out as naturally as any discussion among friends and associates.

    That all came to an end in the early days of busing when, in a class half filled with white kids that was slow getting settled down to work, I raised my voice to get them under control and said (without thinking) "If this class doesn't stop acting like a bunch of Nigger's we are all going to wind up after school".

    Well the black kids started laughing because the white kids were getting ready to duck under their desks, and I thought to myself....."well this can't happen again". When things settled down, I decided to have a discussion on the power of words and how they mean different things to different people and how we have to be careful what we say because we can never predict how people will reaction to what we say. It turned out to be a great class. One that I used many times over the years.

    I should note that my experience with busing was much more benign than most. In the year before busing when wee were an all black school, we sent more kids per capita to the examination HS's than any JrHS in the city. The year after we did the same. By the end of the year we were confident enough that we could take 150 8th graders by public transportation to downtown Boston to take a boat to a harbor Island for a picnic for our year end trip. We had a good faculty and It didn't take long for the kids to realize they couldn't manipulate most of the teachers by playing the black/white card and it rarely raised its ugly head.

    So I can readily see a guy who was fully integrated into the Dolphins locker room being able to use words that wouldn't be acceptable anywhere else (and rightfully so)

    But back to my scenario - When it all comes out here is what I think really happened.

    I think Johnathan Martin is gay.

    I think that a whole bunch of events came together that lead to his melt down. I don't think he loves the game. He's probably playing because he's good at it and its been expected of him. But now things haven't been going well. He hasn't been nearly as successful at it as he expected. He recently lost his starting job. I think the treatment and vulgarity of the locker room made him uncomfortable to begin with, and with him hiding being gay, only made it only worse. I think even an innocuous even like the lunch room snub could have set him off. Hiding that secret must have put him under an incredible amount of pressure, then add the fact that he wasn't doing well and the fact that he was viewed as a bit of an outsider by his teammates. Its only natural that he'd lash out and try to to get out of that situation.

    I think putting all the blame on Incognito was a knee jerk reaction that took a life of its own and now can't be put back into the bottle. I'm not sure how premeditated and how thought out the "bullying defense" was. In the end it really unfortunate for all the parties involved. the players, the team, and the league itself have all been put under the lamp of other people passing judgement about things they really don't know about.

    The fact is, that lots of people have been making blanket judgements where the ONLY people who know what's going on are the people in the Miami locker room. And while Richie Ingognito seems like a thoroughly disreputable character by all accounts, the near universal support he's gotten from his own teams (over 70% black) is more telling to me than anything I hear from some talking head who feels he has the need and authority to pass judgement over people he knows little about
     
  16. BelizePats

    BelizePats Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Ken, I have a huge amount of respect for you but are you serious here? Sorry but I can't tell!
     
  17. NYCPatsFan

    NYCPatsFan In the Starting Line-Up

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    Yes, he is adding his two cents.

    Ken - fascinating background.
     
  18. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Ken,
    Gay is not a disease, affliction or condition. It is not a weakness that causes someone to be afraid.
    They don't all think alike, and they don't all feel the same way.

    Reread your last paragraph. You just made a blanket judgment about Martin and passed judgment on someone you know little about while decrying people doing it about Incognito.
     
  19. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Interesting background, Ken. I'd personally speculated as to the same thing. I believe another poster in the 1st hundred posts raised the gay possibility as well. It addresses why someone might feel uncomfortable in the whole locker room schtick, although a good segment of the hetero population would also find it a not fun culture as well. And Martin could be gay and it has little to nothing to do with the situation.
     
  20. Fencer

    Fencer Pro Bowl Player

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    I interpret Ken's argument as being:


    • Martin is surprisingly sensitive to the slights that occur in a locker room.
    • In particular, the examples he's giving aren't as bad as he's suggesting they are.
    • The explanation is that in addition to all known factors, he's also subject to bigotry against a secret that he's hiding.
    • The obvious candidate for that secret is him being gay.
    There are some leaps in that, but I don't think it equates to "gays are soft".


    I'd further comment by saying:


    1. It's OK in California to have what many would interpret as a gay-seeming demeanor, so Californians are probably more likely to be MISIDENTIFIED as gay than guys from many other places. (Happened to me, actually, I learned years after the fact, during a period of my life when those who knew me more closely thought I was overdoing the heterosexual activity ...)

    2. Martin doesn't seem to have much in the way of visible girlfriends.
     

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