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Incognito suspended indefinitely by Dolphins

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Ring 6

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I interpret Ken's argument as being:


  • Martin is surprisingly sensitive to the slights that occur in a locker room.
We just don't know that. He has not stated what his issues specifically are. If his issues are that he doesn't like being called the N word, or his teammates telling him they are going to F his sister, that could be very reasonable and hardly 'sensitive'.
The use of sensitive in this context is just what I meant. Why would you attach gay to sensitive unless you are throwing every gay under an umbrella. (That is my main objection here, that something can be explained by being gay, as if there are attitudes, characteristics, mentalities etc that 'all gays have')
  • [*]In particular, the examples he's giving aren't as bad as he's suggesting they are.
    [*]
Not as bad in what way?
Hell he hasn't even given examples, and you seem to be drawing the line between disgusting and funny as if it were obvious.

The explanation is that in addition to all known factors, he's also subject to bigotry against a secret that he's hiding.
There is nothing at all to evidence a secret is being hidden.

Come on. Its clear that the stereotypical gay guy who easily have his feelings hurt, throw a 'hissy fit' quit and go hide in a hospital when the big mean football player called him a name.
Lets not pretend there was something else behind the 'suspision'


The obvious candidate for that secret is him being gay.
Why?
Couldnt the 'secret', if you require one for some unknown reason, be:

-He doesn't like football
-He was embarrassed that he found his teammates intimidating
-He harbors issues with being half black and half white and not fitting in with either group on the team
-He blew his money gambling and is broke
-He has a drinking problem
-His girlfriend dumped him
-He doesn't like living in Miami and is homesick

or any other number of things.

Do we really need to feed a stereotype?




There are some leaps in that, but I don't think it equates to "gays are soft".
If that wasn't the point of the leap, why make the leap? As I said there are other possibliities that don't require a stereotype.

I'd further comment by saying:


1. It's OK in California to have what many would interpret as a gay-seeming demeanor, so Californians are probably more likely to be MISIDENTIFIED as gay than guys from many other places. (Happened to me, actually, I learned years after the fact, during a period of my life when those who knew me more closely thought I was overdoing the heterosexual activity ...)

2. Martin doesn't seem to have much in the way of visible girlfriends.
How would you know whether he has visible girlfriends?
As far as #1, HUH?
 

groganbootleg

Practice Squad Player
Feel free to go back into the thread and read about the reactions. I'm not going to babysit you through this. As for what's plausible, one of us is speculating (you), the other is just noting what's been reported and what's not been reported (me).

Does Pouncey look like he's got an issue here?

Richie Incognito Says The N-Word In Bar On Video [VIDEO] - The Juicy Online

There's been plenty of ridiculous posted in this thread. Don't add to it.

Always nice to deal with you.

So you've determined from a video that Pouncey is OK with being called a nigger by his white teammate? Who is speculating again?
 

patfanken

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Ken,
Gay is not a disease, affliction or condition. It is not a weakness that causes someone to be afraid.
They don't all think alike, and they don't all feel the same way.

Reread your last paragraph. You just made a blanket judgment about Martin and passed judgment on someone you know little about while decrying people doing it about Incognito.

Not making any judgement at all, Andy. Just trying to create a scenario that would make how this happened make more sense. I made no attempt to make being gay seem like a weakness or disease. As far as we've come in the last 20 years in our progress with dealing with rampant homophobia in this country and the world, its STILL not an easy thing to come to grips with for anyone. Otherwise all the gay players in the league ( and I'm sure there are a few dozen) would come out the closet. They don't simply because we as a society haven't progressed to the point were this would be an easy and comfortable choice. That day IS coming. Sooner probably more than later, but it isn't here yetd

The only reason I made this supposition is that it would explain what would seem to be on the surface a rather hasty and severe reaction. A reaction that it would seem would have had a oood chance to have been mitigated at several points over the last several months with a simple word of complaint.
 

patfanken

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I interpret Ken's argument as being:


  • Martin is surprisingly sensitive to the slights that occur in a locker room.
  • In particular, the examples he's giving aren't as bad as he's suggesting they are.
  • The explanation is that in addition to all known factors, he's also subject to bigotry against a secret that he's hiding.
  • The obvious candidate for that secret is him being gay.
There are some leaps in that, but I don't think it equates to "gays are soft".


I'd further comment by saying:


1. It's OK in California to have what many would interpret as a gay-seeming demeanor, so Californians are probably more likely to be MISIDENTIFIED as gay than guys from many other places. (Happened to me, actually, I learned years after the fact, during a period of my life when those who knew me more closely thought I was overdoing the heterosexual activity ...)

2. Martin doesn't seem to have much in the way of visible girlfriends.

Thanks that's about right. It brings to mind an article I read recently in ESPN the Magazine about a OL who played for the Raider's who's name I forgot. He came out after he retired. Among the things he recalled was how difficult it was to live within the vulgar name calling locker room culture in Oakland and keep up appearances. It just reinforced him continuing to live a lie, which is a very difficult thing to do. Its it was a very good article
 

shmessy

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Ken,
Gay is not a disease, affliction or condition. It is not a weakness that causes someone to be afraid.
They don't all think alike, and they don't all feel the same way.



Out of the thousand of athletes in the "big four" sports in America, how many current players have come out as being gay?

In much of today's NFL player "culture" it may very well still be stigmatized, so it is a possibility.
 
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patfanken

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First I was never trying to "make a case" for Martin being gay. I was clear that this was merely a supposition on my part that made the sequence of events make more sense to me.

[/LIST]

-He doesn't like football
-He was embarrassed that he found his teammates intimidating
-He harbors issues with being half black and half white and not fitting in with either group on the team
-He blew his money gambling and is broke
-He has a drinking problem
-His girlfriend dumped him
-He doesn't like living in Miami and is homesick

or any other number of things.
These are ALL feasible reasons for Martin to have reacted as he had and are no more viable or fallacious as mine was.

I guess I should have ended my post with the comment "just a thought" ;)
 

Ring 6

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Not making any judgement at all, Andy. Just trying to create a scenario that would make how this happened make more sense. I made no attempt to make being gay seem like a weakness or disease. As far as we've come in the last 20 years in our progress with dealing with rampant homophobia in this country and the world, its STILL not an easy thing to come to grips with for anyone. Otherwise all the gay players in the league ( and I'm sure there are a few dozen) would come out the closet. They don't simply because we as a society haven't progressed to the point were this would be an easy and comfortable choice. That day IS coming. Sooner probably more than later, but it isn't here yetd

The only reason I made this supposition is that it would explain what would seem to be on the surface a rather hasty and severe reaction. A reaction that it would seem would have had a oood chance to have been mitigated at several points over the last several months with a simple word of complaint.

I understand where you were coming from, but there are many reasons that could explain his actions. We could also wait to make such a judgment until he actually explains what caused him to leave.
Your comments imply that there is a gay way to act.
I am sure you meant no harm, but I found it another layer of intolerance in a thread full of it.
Why are we not supposing Incognito is gay and that is why he acts like a tough guy?
Just by pulling that guess out of thin air you associated characeteristics to him that you consider stereotypical of gays.
I would have thought the same way at some point, but over the last few years a member of my family has recognized that they are gay, and in that light, it makes me sensitive about people lumping characteristics, mentality, and stereotypes into what gay is. The fact is they are just people like all other people who happen to be gay.
It bothers me when people imply otherwise.
 

Fencer

Pro Bowl Player
[/LIST]
We just don't know that. He has not stated what his issues specifically are.

His representative has released a specific voicemail. Presumably, he thinks that illustrates his point. Also, it's known that his last straw was a fairly innocuous lunchroom prank.


There is nothing at all to evidence a secret is being hidden. I didn't make the argument; Ken did. He sees to feel more strongly than I do that there needs to be a big hidden cause for Martin's behavior. I'm more on the Jason Whitlock side that says being smart, educated and decorous is enough to get you picked on unmercifully.

Come on. Its clear that the stereotypical gay guy who easily have his feelings hurt, throw a 'hissy fit' quit and go hide in a hospital when the big mean football player called him a name.
Lets not pretend there was something else behind the 'suspision'

You fail at telepathy.

Or if you think your claim is based on logic: Ken is a Jewish Massachusetts Democrat school teacher. Why would you assume he's homophobic?

How would you know whether he has visible girlfriends?

I googled a bit.

As far as #1, HUH?

As for #1, unless you've spent nearly as much time in California and among Californians as I have, trust me on that one.
 

Fencer

Pro Bowl Player
Your comments imply that there is a gay way to act.

They didn't, that I recall.

Mine, however, did, although it would be more accurate to say that my opinion is that SOME of the stereotypes about gay behavior have SOME basis in reality. Even then, they only apply to the openly gay.
 

Ring 6

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As for #1, unless you've spent nearly as much time in California and among Californians as I have, trust me on that one.
HUH? meant what does that have to do with anything.

I never called Ken a homophobe, I pointed out that his post was a proliferation of stereotypes.
 

Ring 6

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They didn't, that I recall.

Mine, however, did, although it would be more accurate to say that my opinion is that SOME of the stereotypes about gay behavior have SOME basis in reality. Even then, they only apply to the openly gay.

Some of the sterotypes applying to some of the people in a group does not make it correct to pretend they are one amorphous group of people acting in unison.
Some Polish people are stupid. That does not make the archaic stereotype acceptable.
 

Fencer

Pro Bowl Player
HUH? meant what does that have to do with anything.

In response to Ken's suggestion, I conjecture that Martin's teammates might have incorrectly believed him to be gay.

I never called Ken a homophobe, I pointed out that his post was a proliferation of stereotypes.

Let's just say you came a lot closer to doing so than you should have.

Ken,
Gay is not a disease, affliction or condition. It is not a weakness that causes someone to be afraid.



 

Fencer

Pro Bowl Player
Some of the sterotypes applying to some of the people in a group does not make it correct to pretend they are one amorphous group of people acting in unison.

That would be a relevant comment if it had anything to do with what anybody has said.
 

Ring 6

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First I was never trying to "make a case" for Martin being gay. I was clear that this was merely a supposition on my part that made the sequence of events make more sense to me.

These are ALL feasible reasons for Martin to have reacted as he had and are no more viable or fallacious as mine was.

I guess I should have ended my post with the comment "just a thought" ;)

Do you not see that a 'supposition' that the guy who ran away from the team because he couldn't handle being picked on by the tough guys on the football team because he was overly sensitive must be gay is proliferating a stereotype?
That is really my only point here. There are many potential reasons, and jumping to that is in bad taste IMO.
I am sure other people view it differently than I do.
 

Ring 6

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In response to Ken's suggestion, I conjecture that Martin's teammates might have incorrectly believed him to be gay.



Let's just say you came a lot closer to doing so than you should have.

Ken,
Gay is not a disease, affliction or condition. It is not a weakness that causes someone to be afraid.

No. I stand by those comments.
 

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