Incognito suspended indefinitely by Dolphins

[Fixit]

of course he did......black veterans were also part of the toxic culture that preyed on rookies, bled them dry, fractured that team and helped them woefully underachieve


yeah, rookies carrying equipment.....taking their unit vets out to a reasonable dinner...hair cuts...fight songs....i get that, done in good fun, it isn't a huge deal.....it happens in every locker room, and when rookies participate in good faith & good fun, it can be a bonding agent.....but when rookies are made to feel forced, when they are mistreated before & after, when it goes to the level we've seen with the dolphins....it hurts teams, it hurts people


look at the red sox.....dempster said this was the first team he was on that didn't have at least one ******* in the locker room......that's a big part of how they were able to win.....every player showing up to play, and when they show up, they are committed to doing what it takes to win......this is a the true "patriot way", too.....when you are at practice/game/training - you are committed to that one goal

Miami's vets were committed to making life fun for themselves and miserable for the rookies.....and they don't win....go figure

It's important to note that Martin isn't even a rookie.

 

[yukon cornelius]

It's important to note that Martin isn't even a rookie.

sounds like martin had a brain and a pair of balls - he bucked the rookie trend, balked at paying for the Vegas trip (and other stuff i am sure).....RI and his leadership council made him a target

it was so bad he worked out on his own and skipped OTA's - hence the VM transcript we've all seen



Martin bucked the rookie trend of allowing yourself to be preyed upon (in Miami that sounds like the trend).....he stayed a target after his rookie year

 

[Fencer]

This whole sad episode is another reason to be thankful for being a Pats fan and for the team culture instilled by BB and the Krafts.

Indeed. BB's central principle of interactions is respect, and it's really hard to cast Incognito/Martin as a respectful relationship.

BB's trick, which works with many players but not all, is to instill considerable fear and still have the players feel respected. Military culture operates the same way, at least when it's working well.

 

[onegameatatime]

Now stories are coming out reminding people that this guy has had issues going back to at least 2002 at Nebraska, Oregon, St. Louis, etc. With the attention on bullying issues these days (see recent Florida case of 14 year old bullying a 12 year old to suicide and then showing zero remorse online), I suspect he never plays again.

Also there are convincing stories that Richie's dad, Richie Sr., has been posting nice things like how he prays that the coach and GM of the Dolphins get AIDS. How Christian! And how Martin and Pouncey were "black brothers" (why the need for "black"?) who did drugs and how Martin was suicidal. As if it's OK to harass someone because they do drugs. Even worse, as if it's OK to harass someone who is suicidal -- now we are getting into indifference to human life.

Growing up with someone like that, I suppose it's no surprise there's a lack of understanding right from wrong.

 

[shmessy]

Now stories are coming out reminding people that this guy has had issues going back to at least 2002 at Nebraska, Oregon, St. Louis, etc. With the attention on bullying issues these days (see recent Florida case of 14 year old bullying a 12 year old to suicide and then showing zero remorse online), I suspect he never plays again.

Also there are convincing stories that Richie's dad, Richie Sr., has been posting nice things like how he prays that the coach and GM of the Dolphins get AIDS. How Christian! And how Martin and Pouncey were "black brothers" (why the need for "black"?) who did drugs and how Martin was suicidal. As if it's OK to harass someone because they do drugs. Even worse, as if it's OK to harass someone who is suicidal -- now we are getting into indifference to human life.

Growing up with someone like that, I suppose it's no surprise there's a lack of understanding right from wrong.

Yup.

The Incognito Sr. part of this situation takes the sickness to an entirely different level. Anyone reading those posts has to wonder about the person who can type such a thing - - even about strangers, let alone someone your son works with.

 

[shmessy]

Exception: West Point (and I presume the other military academies), where it's very organized and documented ... and where it bears little resemblance to what Incognito did.

Exactly.

One point for those saying "Martin is a p ussy, and it works well for the military":

The military hazing takes place ONLY while on duty and on military property.

Any military personnel continuing the hazing off duty or in a civilian setting is going to have his ass handed him by the command.

Jonathan Martin had a right to a LIFE without having to constantly look over his shoulder for this psychopath and his very sick father.

 

[Fencer]

Dedovshchina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia tells about some modern peer-to-peer hazing in the military. (Specifically in the Soviet/Russian army.) It doesn't seem to be very beneficial.

 

[DaBruinz]

Fail.

Show me where racial taunting and monetary shakedowns of its own enlisteds are the accepted policy of the officer class of today's US Armed Forces.

In fact, show me an officer who has been publicly proven to have done that, and I'll show you an officer who has been shown the door.

Shmessy - No offense, but this is a fail on your part because Deus never said such a thing. He was referring to hazing in general. Which the military basically does to every single recruit. They bring them in. Give them haircuts to make them all look alike and the drill sergeants yell and scream at them (essentially bullying them) all through basic training.

That being said, even the military has said that there is a fine line and going over it isn't acceptable.

 

[groganbootleg]

Shmessy - No offense, but this is a fail on your part because Deus never said such a thing. He was referring to hazing in general. Which the military basically does to every single recruit. They bring them in. Give them haircuts to make them all look alike and the drill sergeants yell and scream at them (essentially bullying them) all through basic training.

That being said, even the military has said that there is a fine line and going over it isn't acceptable.

Exactly
There is a huge difference between an institution like the military cutting people's hair and putting them through drills to make them conform to the military way (to probably keep them alive) and a rogue lineman deciding to individually haze a guy incessantly until he breaks. You've also seen in recent years the military pull back on things that go over the line and allowing rank and file to police themselves.

 

[NYCPatsFan]

... How Christian! ...

Nice points but why bring religion to measure the failing of an individual?

Aren't there moronic and evil individuals in other religions? And when did Christanity gain the mantle that it is above other religions?

I mean no disrespect. Just pointing out something that hopefully alerts you to looking at things from other perspectives.

 

[MassPats38]

Exactly.

One point for those saying "Martin is a p ussy, and it works well for the military":

The military hazing takes place ONLY while on duty and on military property.

Any military personnel continuing the hazing off duty or in a civilian setting is going to have his ass handed him by the command.

I haven't called Martin weak (I believe he is a true victim of bullying and likely criminal activity), but I will comment on the military aspect of your post as you appear to be operating under a misunderstanding of military life.

Hazing is defined as "the imposition of strenuous, often humiliating, tasks as part of a program of rigorous physical training and initiation" or "harass[ing] by banter, ridicule, or criticism" The military, for the most part since the early 1990s and the airborne pinning incident that hit the news, has curtailed any and all traditions that qualify as hazing under its definition.

But do the subjects of those traditions still have to buy initiators drinks off duty and off base? Yes. Are they referred to with derogatory terms, like 'candidate' or 'selectee' or 'initiate' or whatever other term may be thrown around? Yes. Is that hazing? It sure sounds like it under the hazing discussion here, given the focus on buying dinners in this NFL discussion.

I don't know if you have spent time in the military (I have), but if you have not I suspect those who have possess a very different view of the past and present military culture. Is being called a 'plebe' hazing at the Naval Academy? Do you believe that doesn't continue off military grounds and outside the presence of controlled, military activities? It does. Are the officers going to court-martial soldiers or sailors for hurtful or demeaning words, or acts like these? No.

Most of military boot camp life qualifies as hazing under one or both of the definitions above. Most ROTC and service academy life, in the first year, is the same. Not all of those experiences are restricted to formal military activities, military grounds and/or working hours, as you appear to believe. The line the military has to walk in approving activities now is when do formal traditions become problematic? When do these acts, serving to build comradery, actually divide and damage components of that team? As for informal, unsanctioned acts that may qualify as hazing through tradition, if there isn't violence, fraternization or racial slurs, I wouldn't count on command intervention.

Deus astutely pointed out in another thread that these traditions become problems when the participants "go too far." I would agree. The problem is in defining when "too far" is reached for traditions most would view as silly or inexplicable because they have no context in which to understand the tradition itself. Are silly haircuts okay? Is carrying shoulder pads okay? Who says so, you? In the abstract, both are demeaning and degrading. Who draws the line on these traditions - the general public, with no clue as to the life, lifestyle or temperament of the participants, or some other governing body (ie., the NFLPA)?

 

[shmessy]

Shmessy - No offense, but this is a fail on your part because Deus never said such a thing. He was referring to hazing in general. Which the military basically does to every single recruit. They bring them in. Give them haircuts to make them all look alike and the drill sergeants yell and scream at them (essentially bullying them) all through basic training.

That being said, even the military has said that there is a fine line and going over it isn't acceptable.

Exactly, DaBruinz. It goes on INSIDE military property.

Anyone who stalks OUTSIDE is handled.

 

[shmessy]

Are they referred to with derogatory terms, like 'candidate' or 'selectee' or 'initiate' or whatever other term may be thrown around? Yes. Is that hazing? It sure sounds like it under the hazing discussion here, given the focus on buying dinners in this NFL discussion......

..... Is being called a 'plebe' hazing at the Naval Academy? Do you believe that doesn't continue off military grounds and outside the presence of controlled, military activities? It does. Are the officers going to court-martial soldiers or sailors for hurtful or demeaning words, or acts like these? No.

Wait a second - - are you serious? Those terms you list are official terms. They are categories. It is like calling a nurse - - "nurse"! Or a rookie "rookie".

I'm not sure "Plebe", "Selectee", "Candidate" and "Initiate" = "Half N****"

You're right, I never was in the military. However, I do have up-close experience with the military, having worked in the late 80's- early 90's as a TS/SCI SIGINT Analyst with the NSA at Fort Meade in an office that was 50% military.

And I can categorically state to you that, while "Plebe", Selectee", etc. was perfectly fine addresses for these guys, "Half-N****" was not.

 

[DaBruinz]

the incident rate shouldn't be its defense since any occurrence is unacceptable.

and your assertion that the hazing is somehow uniform or egalitarian which eases its maliciousness belies the truth. That the hazing is often disproportionate and prejudicial based on individual's race.

incidents that jump to mind include Danny Chen, Brushaun Anderson, Harry Lew.

Danny Chen did not die in boot camp.

Neither did Brushaun Anderson. Neither did Harry Lew.

Were all 3 hazing cases? Yes. Did all 3 result in suicide? Maybe. Questions have now come up about Danny Chen as to whether it was suicide or not.

So bringing them up doesn't strengthen your case at all. If anything, it shows you blatantly over-looked what was being said.

The point of the "hazing" in boot camp is to get the recruits to realize that they are all equal and need to work as individuals and as a team to succeed. That they aren't different in the eyes of the drill instructor. A LOT has changed since the Viet Nam era drill instructors because of suicides during bootcamp. Because of the hazing that went over the line.

Hazing beyond boot camp should never be accepted, but as pointed out by Claremonster, you will always have racists and bigots and such. Why? Because those people actively choose to be ignorant. And when you have that, you will have people trying to assert themselves over others. Unfortunately, that is something that, more often than not, can't be taught to those people.

 

[DaBruinz]

I have pointed to three actual incidents where racial epithets were used in hazing so I am not at all misrepresenting what is going on. Those were real incidents, they happened.

When you enable a environment where it's acceptable to mistreat and harrass others, these soft parameters such as no racial epithets are not enforceable at all.

the capability of the military has no correlation with the cruelty of their hazing practices.

What you did was point out 3 separate instances that occurred outside of boot camp. You seem to have an issue with telling the difference between the venues.

It's clear to me because you can't tell the difference between boot camp and an actual active military setting that you really can't be expected to bring an educated opinion to the argument.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm thinking this is mostly a case of Ingocnito being an idiot.
When you consider context, and if it is true that those voicemails happened while Martin was skipping mini-camp, setting aside the racial slur, it does not sound far off of what a teammate may say to a player they feel is letting the team down by not showing.
Of course he is an idiot to say some of those offcolor things on a voicemail to have it come back to him.
It is interesting that no one on the team has come out against Incognito.
I think, as is always the case, more will come out. I don't suppose Martin was a popular teammate but it seems his issues are dwarfed by the fact that the person who appeared to take the role of dealing with it is a total moron.

 

[Fixit]

Everybody, just stop with the boot camp thing.

What Incognito did has no relation to boot. Boot camp isn't hazing; it's training that is administered by a trained supervisor who is subject to rules and applied on an equal basis. And that training has a specific purpose in mind: cultivating teamwork, discipline, and attention to detail. As stupid as I thought much of boot was, I always knew there was a goal. And, it's important to note that the instructor is also tasked with addressing issues that the trainee may have including, but not limited to, mental health issues, physical problems, and mistreatment by fellow trainees (if he's doing his job).

It is not some sociopathic cowboy taking it upon himself to torment an individual guy for whatever reasons make sense to him.

Anyway, what Incognito escalated to isn't "hazing" by any stretch of the imagination. It was flat-out harassment.

Let's stop comparing apples to Adirondack chairs.

 

[Deus Irae]

Everybody, just stop with the boot camp thing.

What Incognito did has no relation to boot. Boot camp isn't hazing; it's training that is administered by a trained supervisor who is subject to rules and applied on an equal basis. And that training has a specific purpose in mind: cultivating teamwork, discipline, and attention to detail. As stupid as I thought much of boot was, I always knew there was a goal. And, it's important to note that the instructor is also tasked with addressing issues that the trainee may have including, but not limited to, mental health issues, physical problems, and mistreatment by fellow trainees (if he's doing his job).

It is not some sociopathic cowboy taking it upon himself to torment an individual guy for whatever reasons makes sense to him.

Anyway, what Incognito escalated to isn't "hazing" by any stretch of the imagination. It was flat-out harassment.

Let's stop comparing apples to Adirondack chairs.

Perhaps we could also stop jumping to conclusions about this situation, given that we don't have evidence that's actually in context?

 

[shmessy]

I'm thinking this is mostly a case of Ingocnito being an idiot.
When you consider context, and if it is true that those voicemails happened while Martin was skipping mini-camp, setting aside the racial slur, it does not sound far off of what a teammate may say to a player they feel is letting the team down by not showing.
Of course he is an idiot to say some of those offcolor things on a voicemail to have it come back to him.
It is interesting that no one on the team has come out against Incognito.
I think, as is always the case, more will come out. I don't suppose Martin was a popular teammate but it seems his issues are dwarfed by the fact that the person who appeared to take the role of dealing with it is a total moron.

Where it gets worse is what is alleged to be his father's posting history over at Finheaven.com

If that is his dad who is being fed this information (or stories), then we are talking about some serious and concerted stalking.

 

[shmessy]

Everybody, just stop with the boot camp thing.

What Incognito did has no relation to boot. Boot camp isn't hazing; it's training that is administered by a trained supervisor who is subject to rules and applied on an equal basis. And that training has a specific purpose in mind: cultivating teamwork, discipline, and attention to detail. As stupid as I thought much of boot was, I always knew there was a goal. And, it's important to note that the instructor is also tasked with addressing issues that the trainee may have including, but not limited to, mental health issues, physical problems, and mistreatment by fellow trainees (if he's doing his job).

It is not some sociopathic cowboy taking it upon himself to torment an individual guy for whatever reasons makes sense to him.

Anyway, what Incognito escalated to isn't "hazing" by any stretch of the imagination. It was flat-out harassment.

Let's stop comparing apples to Adirondack chairs.

Thank you, voice of reason.

........however, Deus needs "context"

There's more than enough "context":

Perhaps after the release of the voicemail transcript, Deus wants to know whether the proscribed defecation into Martin's mouth was with or without preliminary flatulence. And whether the threatened slap in Martin's mother's face was with the left or right hand. And perhaps "half-n****" is not really as bad a "full-n****" (which is ridiculous - - I have friends who are of mixed parentage and in many respects they have worse stories of idiots both black and white calling them "half-breeds" as if it is something to be ashamed of. In actuality, "N**** was probably not the worst word in there - - "half" was probably even more incendiary).

That voicemail is OVERFLOWING with "context".