2018 Training Camp Thread - Days 4 & 5 (7/29-30/18)

[BaconGrundleCandy]

JJ together with Ebner, Slater and Cyrus was reportedly doing intensive work on the rehab field and the feeling is they might join the practice soon. Losing entire TC and another 6 weeks of regular season practices would hardly be a recipe for JJ to make the team, at least on D, so hopefully he is back asap.





IMO Gilmore is very likely to have a better season than last year (baring injury) where he struggled individually and collectively esp. in the first part of the season. Butler struggled throughout the season to the bitter end and Rowe wasn't much of a factor outside or in. As mentioned JJ made a nice progress and stepped up in the slot but was still struggling on slants and could struggle with RPOs as well.

Its really too early to say they haven't improved secondary. They have quite solid competition for #2 outside CB in Rowe, J-Mac, JC Jackson, R.Lewis and Crossen, they drafted best slot DB (also acc. to PFF fwiw) in Dawson and if he shows up his first season that will be a huge upgrade to slot defending. I agree its a lot of ifs at CB at the moment but its still a long way to the games that matter.

We all would love to see better backups at safety but look around the league how many teams have better top 3 safeties and who battles for the backup S/core ST spots..

LBNL - Improved run D can offer significant steps to better secondary play and seems like DE position will be stronger as well. And Flores' reportedly simplified, faster D - so lets see how it pans out.

Hopefully my writing is not too optimistic..

Agreed on almost everything. The entire secondary was a mess early on & didn't come close to their potential last year.

I think it's more probable then not Gilly has a better year or at least more consistent throughout.

As you alluded to the #2 spot is the big question.

We have plenty of talent & capable bodies in the slot. Should be a great battle but I'm happy w the guys we got. Health providing we should be good there. Dawson is a gamer & should be a fan fav by the end of the year.

Flores has been a fav of mine for years now. Guy is well versed everywhere on defense. I expect him to use the knowledge he's gathered on players over the years & make the transition as easy as possible.

 

[oceansizer]

Best O Line we’ve had in a long time

Let them give a proof of their value during the season.

 

[ivanvamp]

The Pats have often kept "$3M veterans" on the roster as backups in "young" units - as insurance. It didn't turn out to be beneficial with David Harris last season, but it has in the past.

Cy Jones (ACL) has had a full rookie season in 2016, and then 2017 Camp (before his injury) to establish himself as a viable PR or STer or DB, and hasn't really done much to accomplish that. He hasn't been back on the field yet this Camp, and his time is probably running out (if it hasn't already). At this point, I'd say he's the least likely to make the 53-man roster (although possibly the Psquad), but I'd be pleasantly surprised if he's a "tough cut" by the end of Camp.

Right now, and until JJ (foot injury) gets back on the field and shows what he has, it seems likely that Gilmore, Dawson and Rowe would be the top-3. Assuming that JJ is close to where he was at the end of 2017, that leaves ...

JMac (9 years experience)
Crossen (rookie)
Lewis (1-yr Psquad)
Wiltz (1-yr Psquad)
JC Jackson (rookie)

... competing for the fifth and final CB spot.

Injuries, perhaps for extended periods, are pretty much a certainty with the CB unit (especially with Rowe, it seems). Whoever is chosed for that fifth spot will be integral to the injury contingency plan. Last year, the Pats had JJ (1-yr active roster experience), and Bademosi (5-yrs active roster experience and about 300 snaps at CB, including 3 starts). JMac is the only candidate for the fifth spot who offers any live-fire NFL experience whatsoever.

-----

When the DL is a sieve, a legitimate threat to run tends to make everyone else on the defense hesitate, including pass-rushers and mmbers of the secondary. The RPO was specifically designed to create and exploit that hesitation.

When that run-D deficient defense also has lmited personnel at LB capable of both coverage and run-D, it's only logical to compensate by using predominantly safeties in the secondary to help out against the run.

In the Superbowl, Foles and the Eagles coaches used their RPO run threat perfectly against a defense that simply didn't have the personnel anywhere on the roster who were capable of dealing with it effectively. There were no substitutions or adjustments available that would have made any difference.

This is the very last time I'll be addressing the subject. I'm on to 2018.

It's fine to be on to 2018 but the Pats better have it figured out or teams with the personnel to run it (RPO) will kill the Patriots this year.

 

[luuked]

It's fine to be on to 2018 but the Pats better have it figured out or teams with the personnel to run it (RPO) will kill the Patriots this year.

RPOs are not a cheat code. You don't just use them and become invincible. As long as the DL is not as much of a sieve against running as they were last year we will look considerably better. And not that it matters a lot right now but the first couple of days of Shelton's camp has been pretty much what everyone hoped for. Add in Guy being more comfortable, Butler making a jump and maybe at some point Brown getting back closer to the player he could be in what seems to be a contract year for him.

The defense last year might have not been exactly as good as the points against indicated but they were most certainly better than the SB made them look like. Tough matchups happen, sucks that it had to be the most important game of the season.

 

[long distance]

It's fine to be on to 2018 but the Pats better have it figured out or teams with the personnel to run it (RPO) will kill the Patriots this year.

If your run D is legit (inside&outside) RPO becomes just a short passing game. Give me Shelton, Clayborn and Hightower in SBLII and Id like the outcome even with Richards/Bademosi “patrolling“ the slot.


ps
A coach (forgot who it was) said the best way to defend RPO is to treat it as passing game. If you can't stop the run consistently you can't do that. If you can't even stop the obvious run like LGB that you know inside out . nothing can help you..

 

[Ring 6]

RPOs are not a cheat code. You don't just use them and become invincible. As long as the DL is not as much of a sieve against running as they were last year we will look considerably better. And not that it matters a lot right now but the first couple of days of Shelton's camp has been pretty much what everyone hoped for. Add in Guy being more comfortable, Butler making a jump and maybe at some point Brown getting back closer to the player he could be in what seems to be a contract year for him.

The defense last year might have not been exactly as good as the points against indicated but they were most certainly better than the SB made them look like. Tough matchups happen, sucks that it had to be the most important game of the season.

Good points, except for the Brown comments. Brown had a good year last year playing half his snaps out of position.
He has not done anything that indicates a step backward. When we last saw him he played 80% of the snaps in the afccg and Sb. He will get the most snaps of the entire DT group this year if he is healthy.

 

[BobDigital]

Thoughts on the the positions so far.

Offense

QBs - The rookie looks interesting. I doubt he takes Hoyer's job though and if he sticks he bound for the PS. He is a great practice arm but when the rush hits him he loses a lot of it. That's the book on him anyway.

RB - Sony looks pretty good and I'm glad they plan to use him as a pass catcher too. Just hold on to the damn ball. Hill vs Gillislee for one of the last spots should be fun. They will need that other big back with the relatively small White and Burkhead to give Sony a rest. As usual Bolden and Develin will no doubt stick and fill their roles.

TE - Curious to see what if anything Hollister can bring in the pass catching game. So far they look to be trying to really work him into more of a role. I wonder if this means they've given up on trying to make Allen a duel threat and will choose to split the duties between these two as they back up Gronk. In any case. the 3 spots here are locked.

WR - I think Edelman/Hogan/Matthrews/Patterson/Dorsett all make the team and there will not be room for anyone else after week 4. Even if there is they won't be a factor with this group ahead of them. The question is do they carry another guy till then or just go with 4. Matthews is going to probably lead the core in total yards if he plays all 16 games and will be a big factor. The guy to watch though is Dorsett. He is the wildcard who has had a strong camp and can a guy can be good for 1 game changing play a game. Everyone else is fun to watch but I don't wanna spent time to talk about guys who ultimately are competing for PS spots.

OL - A very good unit this year. I think there are 2 interior spots open with Karras and Croston having the inside track on them. The 4 tackles should be locked in as should the 3 starting IOL. It looks like both the moves made in the the draft to help out the OT spot worked.

DE - Besides the top 4 there isn't much to talk about here so far. I doubt they keep a 5th guy at this point. Right now Wise looks ahead of Rives from all the clips and reports we've read. That's to be expected, but Rivers has more talent. His ability to redirect with ease is off a block is legit. Hopefully he comes on later this year but i won't expect it early.

DT - This is a great conversation point. Do they carry 4 or 5 guys here? They have 5 guys that are clearly good enough to carry but do they keep them all. Maybe they do a surprise trade of Brown (unlikely) but besides that it comes down to Valentine vs Butler if they need to cut someone with Butler probably on the outside due to him being more of a niche player. I think they keep all 5 but it will be interesting to watch this.

LB - Another great spot to watch. The starters are a lock and I do hope Van Noy is making the step it looks like he is. If he can go from a C level start to a B- level starter (just to put it in those terms) they would make a huge difference for this D. In the end this unit lives and dies by Hightower though. After the top 2 is a cluster f*** which is kind of fun. I wish there was a clear legit 3rd option though. The closest right now look like Langi but he is more of an outside than all around player. If he sticks it will be in part to be emergency edge to the DEs as well as LB play. King should stick but he is a STer. So the question is how many more guys do they keep? Sam, Roberts, Flowers, Bentley are all in the mix here. Sam is my personal favorite of that group and I know many others feel the same. They all have their niche they could fill. This spots really needs to be watched more as the back up to the starters he could become hugely important.

CB - Overall this has been a good and compertive spot. Unlike LB there are a bunch of guys who will be in the mix for key spots but they are showing well right now. Gilmore is making the probowl this year. Mark it down now. I was hesitant when I say the contract. Now I think he is worth every penny. Possibly more. Whatever inconsistency he had has been fixed and in the last 8 game and into camp he has been playing like a top 5 CB. Dawson hopefully will adjust to the NFL and take the nickle spot. He was drafted to be a plug and play guy week 1. I'm not worried he doesn't look the part yet. Few rookies do this early, even play and play guys. Give him a few preseason games to get his feet under him. J. Jones is probably the next safest to make the team if he comes back healthy as he is a good emergency option and great special team. The kind of guy you pencil in for the 5th or 6th spot. The other spots seem to be open. McCourty, Jackson, Rowe and Crossen have all either shown well or have the experience you like. Everyone else including Cyrus Jones is probably well on the outside looking in at this point. The question is do they keep 5 or 6 guys. This for me personally is the most fun spots to watch. I think McCourty ultimately does enough to get the starter spot but I wouldn't be willing to bet on it.

S - Nothing new or interesting here. McCourty, Chung, Harmon all stick and rotate. Ebner makes it for STs and Richards AGAIN MAKES THE ROSTER. He is one BB's guys. As much as we all hate it. So he will keep him over a promising young player to the despair of all of us. That or he stole the pics Jake Bequette used to blackmail him for years. Maybe they are handed down from player to player once they get board and decide to leave?

And at this point i've written way more than i originally planned to. Which won't surprise anyone whose ever read a post of mine and is well aware of my tendency to be a long winded sociopath

 

[NG Pats Fan]

RPOs are not a cheat code. You don't just use them and become invincible. As long as the DL is not as much of a sieve against running as they were last year we will look considerably better. And not that it matters a lot right now but the first couple of days of Shelton's camp has been pretty much what everyone hoped for. Add in Guy being more comfortable, Butler making a jump and maybe at some point Brown getting back closer to the player he could be in what seems to be a contract year for him.

The defense last year might have not been exactly as good as the points against indicated but they were most certainly better than the SB made them look like. Tough matchups happen, sucks that it had to be the most important game of the season.

You talk about tough matchups but exclude a 50 million dollar CB being benched the whole game?? Perhaps he may have matched up well had he gotten in a series or two

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

Thoughts on the the positions so far.

Offense

QBs - The rookie looks interesting. I doubt he takes Hoyer's job though and if he sticks he bound for the PS. He is a great practice arm but when the rush hits him he loses a lot of it. That's the book on him anyway.

RB - Sony looks pretty good and I'm glad they plan to use him as a pass catcher too. Just hold on to the damn ball. Hill vs Gillislee for one of the last spots should be fun. They will need that other big back with the relatively small White and Burkhead to give Sony a rest. As usual Bolden and Develin will no doubt stick and fill their roles.

TE - Curious to see what if anything Hollister can bring in the pass catching game. So far they look to be trying to really work him into more of a role. I wonder if this means they've given up on trying to make Allen a duel threat and will choose to split the duties between these two as they back up Gronk. In any case. the 3 spots here are locked.

WR - I think Edelman/Hogan/Matthrews/Patterson/Dorsett all make the team and there will not be room for anyone else after week 4. Even if there is they won't be a factor with this group ahead of them. The question is do they carry another guy till then or just go with 4. Matthews is going to probably lead the core in total yards if he plays all 16 games and will be a big factor. The guy to watch though is Dorsett. He is the wildcard who has had a strong camp and can a guy can be good for 1 game changing play a game. Everyone else is fun to watch but I don't wanna spent time to talk about guys who ultimately are competing for PS spots.

OL - A very good unit this year. I think there are 2 interior spots open with Karras and Croston having the inside track on them. The 4 tackles should be locked in as should the 3 starting IOL. It looks like both the moves made in the the draft to help out the OT spot worked.

DE - Besides the top 4 there isn't much to talk about here so far. I doubt they keep a 5th guy at this point. Right now Wise looks ahead of Rives from all the clips and reports we've read. That's to be expected, but Rivers has more talent. His ability to redirect with ease is off a block is legit. Hopefully he comes on later this year but i won't expect it early.

DT - This is a great conversation point. Do they carry 4 or 5 guys here? They have 5 guys that are clearly good enough to carry but do they keep them all. Maybe they do a surprise trade of Brown (unlikely) but besides that it comes down to Valentine vs Butler if they need to cut someone with Butler probably on the outside due to him being more of a niche player. I think they keep all 5 but it will be interesting to watch this.

LB - Another great spot to watch. The starters are a lock and I do hope Van Noy is making the step it looks like he is. If he can go from a C level start to a B- level starter (just to put it in those terms) they would make a huge difference for this D. In the end this unit lives and dies by Hightower though. After the top 2 is a cluster f*** which is kind of fun. I wish there was a clear legit 3rd option though. The closest right now look like Langi but he is more of an outside than all around player. If he sticks it will be in part to be emergency edge to the DEs as well as LB play. King should stick but he is a STer. So the question is how many more guys do they keep? Sam, Roberts, Flowers, Bentley are all in the mix here. Sam is my personal favorite of that group and I know many others feel the same. They all have their niche they could fill. This spots really needs to be watched more as the back up to the starters he could become hugely important.

CB - Overall this has been a good and compertive spot. Unlike LB there are a bunch of guys who will be in the mix for key spots but they are showing well right now. Gilmore is making the probowl this year. Mark it down now. I was hesitant when I say the contract. Now I think he is worth every penny. Possibly more. Whatever inconsistency he had has been fixed and in the last 8 game and into camp he has been playing like a top 5 CB. Dawson hopefully will adjust to the NFL and take the nickle spot. He was drafted to be a plug and play guy week 1. I'm not worried he doesn't look the part yet. Few rookies do this early, even play and play guys. Give him a few preseason games to get his feet under him. J. Jones is probably the next safest to make the team if he comes back healthy as he is a good emergency option and great special team. The kind of guy you pencil in for the 5th or 6th spot. The other spots seem to be open. McCourty, Jackson, Rowe and Crossen have all either shown well or have the experience you like. Everyone else including Cyrus Jones is probably well on the outside looking in at this point. The question is do they keep 5 or 6 guys. This for me personally is the most fun spots to watch. I think McCourty ultimately does enough to get the starter spot but I wouldn't be willing to bet on it.

S - Nothing new or interesting here. McCourty, Chung, Harmon all stick and rotate. Ebner makes it for STs and Richards AGAIN MAKES THE ROSTER. He is one BB's guys. As much as we all hate it. So he will keep him over a promising young player to the despair of all of us. That or he stole the pics Jake Bequette used to blackmail him for years. Maybe they are handed down from player to player once they get board and decide to leave?

And at this point i've written way more than i originally planned to. Which won't surprise anyone whose ever read a post of mine and is well aware of my tendency to be a long winded sociopath

Britt’s making this team. Maybe they take 6 wrs. They liked what they have seen from britt thus far.

 

[Mike the Brit]

You talk about tough matchups but exclude a 50 million dollar CB being benched the whole game?? Perhaps he may have matched up well had he gotten in a series or two

There's a thread for that.

 

[Mark Morse]

Pretty much. Brown is a one year transplant to ease the transition of Wynn into the LT position until further notice. Though I’d love it if Wynn could step up there this year and the team could move Brown back to RT. That would give them two excellent bookend tackles. It all depends on where Wynn is at, though.

I am hoping that Brown does re-sign. I think the Pats are willing to pay a LT, but not a RG (Mason). Thuney to RG and Wynn to LG. I have always thought Wynn would be better at OG than T.

 

[AtomicDawg]

Some cool little nuggets from BB on Sirius Radio.

 

[luuked]

You talk about tough matchups but exclude a 50 million dollar CB being benched the whole game?? Perhaps he may have matched up well had he gotten in a series or two

Because the secondary was not the cause of the issues we had during the SB. This has been discussed since the day after the SB (see the rewatch thread) again and again. Could they have played better ? Sure. But the reason the RPO offense worked so effectively against us had to do with how awful our defense was against the run portion of that offensive scheme.

Fix the run defense to be closer to its impressive 2016 performance and you have taken care of most of the systemic issue we had in the SB. There will always be a couple of individually bad plays in a game and Butler maybe would have not made them. But that is mostly a red herring to me personally when it comes to a big picture view of the game.

If you think the secondary was a bigger issue than the run defense then I would love to hear an explanation for it that goes beyond "Butler got benched, Richards lol" because then we can at least have a football discussion and not a TMZ level "LOL BB was sooo arrogant" **** throw party.

Or, you know, we can just move to 2018 and stop living in the past.

 

[jah]

Britt’s making this team. Maybe they take 6 wrs. They liked what they have seen from britt thus far.

Right now Britt doesn't have to make the team as long as he's on PUP. I know he's not expected to stay there to begin the season, but the option is at least still there.

 

[Deus Irae]

There were no substitutions or adjustments available that would have made any difference.

Malcolm Butler was available. Malcolm butler would have made a difference. It's foolishness to pretend otherwise.

 

[chasa]

There's a thread for that.

they closed it. It's the wild west out here now.

 

[captain stone]

Britt’s making this team. Maybe they take 6 WRs. They liked what they have seen from Britt thus far.

Not blaming you, because this sentiment has also been reported by media outlets, but I wonder what exactly the staff has seen from him.

 

[Mike the Brit]

they closed it. It's the wild west out here now.

Really? And there was still so much more to say!

 

[Ring 6]

You talk about tough matchups but exclude a 50 million dollar CB being benched the whole game?? Perhaps he may have matched up well had he gotten in a series or two

Too bad he wasn’t prepared to play.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

Malcolm Butler was available. Malcolm butler would have made a difference. It's foolishness to pretend otherwise.

Bill walks on water here. He can’t do no wrong. I doubt very much that the eagles go 10-16 on 3rd downs with butler in the game. They play a littlemore man and less zone coverage.