Rewatch: NE vs LAC

[captain stone]

Yes, I almost mentioned this. The dive at the defender was pretty borderline. Maybe he thought it really was a run instead of a play action pass? With how stringently OPI has been called this year, we may have gotten away with one on that play (not that I think it was egregious; I'm just trying to get a feel for the way refs are calling games).

The dive at the defender was beyond borderline; it was blatant OPI. WTF was he thinking? All he had to do was meet his man, stop, turn around and put up his hands as if he is looking for a pass. Mission accomplished, with zero risk of OPI.

 

[Minitron]

The dive at the defender was beyond borderline; it was blatant OPI. WTF was he thinking? All he had to do was meet his man, stop, turn around and put up his hands as if he is looking for a pass. Mission accomplished, with zero risk of OPI.

Please look at the clip in the first post again. To me it look like he tripped over his own feet, because he tries to catch himself with his arm and directly stands up again. If he tried to do a cut block it was a horrible attempt.

EDIT: after watching the play like 20 times again, it looks like he tripped over #25's leg.

 

[captain stone]

He didn't trip over anybody. He had his sights set on the man's knees as soon as the ball was snapped.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

He didn't trip over anybody. He had his sights set on the man's knees as soon as the ball was snapped.

I think it's "more probable than not" that you're correct, but I had the same question Minitron did in my original post on it. The end zone cam should clarify it 100%, but like I said I'm expecting that it will confirm that he's taking a dive and not responding to contact with #25.

 

[Tony2046]

Let's play a little game called "How many yards did Lewis get?"

I'll post some still frames during the initial action and the video of the full run later. (A little hint: Lewis is pretty good.)

FYI: Notice the blocking in the video answers when I post them. (In case I forget to mention it later)

List your answers by screenshot #: For example: Screenshot 1 - 5 yards.

Screenshot 1


Screenshot 2


Screenshot 3



Screenshot 4

 

[slam]

Breakdown of Melvin Gordon's 87 yard run.



Lessons I suppose are that Marsh got trapped by the trap play and Harmon spun the wrong way off the block, allowing their tight end to block him AND McCourty.

 

[captain stone]

More incompetence by Marsh & Harmon; what a shock.

 

[NE-VT]

Let's play a little game called "How many yards did Lewis get?"

I'll post some still frames during the initial action and the video of the full run later. (A little hint: Lewis is pretty good.)

FYI: Notice the blocking in the video answers when I post them. (In case I forget to mention it later)

List your answers by screenshot #: For example: Screenshot 1 - 5 yards.

Screenshot 1
View attachment 18446

Screenshot 2
View attachment 18447

Screenshot 3
View attachment 18448

Screenshot 4
View attachment 18445

Not sure why no one bit on this Tony, it was a cool idea. I will give it a shot:

S1: 9
S2: 3
S3: 2
S4: 12

Given your hint, I am probably way off. Do you still have the clips of these?

 

[ALP]

Breakdown of Melvin Gordon's 87 yard run.



Lessons I suppose are that Marsh got trapped by the trap play and Harmon spun the wrong way off the block, allowing their tight end to block him AND McCourty.

umm wow...

their TE effectively blocked 3 ppl that drive to spring that into a TD...Harmon not doing outside contain was really dumb

 

[Wheelman]

Please look at the clip in the first post again. To me it look like he tripped over his own feet, because he tries to catch himself with his arm and directly stands up again. If he tried to do a cut block it was a horrible attempt.

EDIT: after watching the play like 20 times again, it looks like he tripped over #25's leg.

He didn't trip over anybody. He had his sights set on the man's knees as soon as the ball was snapped.

Watch the 1st replay after the TD from the broadcast. Hollister's left foot hits Gronk's right foot. Hollister trips and falls. It's crystal clear that their feet touch.

As for anyone(Opposing fans) saying Hollister picked the guy who was going to cover Gronk. Nope. Not true at all. The guy who was supposed to pick up Gronk got pushed back by the guy covering Allen. As previously mentioned on here, great job by Allen which set up Gronk to being wide open.

And just looking at it more. The Chargers totally ****ed up on that. Even if the guy covering Allen didn't rub the guy who was supposed to pick up Gronk, he's too late. Bad defense. Just bad. How do you even do that? Gronk is the #1 guy you want to key in on in the redzone.

Just glad the refs recognized he tripped and didn't throw a flag.

 

[Minitron]

Let's play a little game called "How many yards did Lewis get?"

I'll post some still frames during the initial action and the video of the full run later. (A little hint: Lewis is pretty good.)

FYI: Notice the blocking in the video answers when I post them. (In case I forget to mention it later)

List your answers by screenshot #: For example: Screenshot 1 - 5 yards.

Screenshot 1
View attachment 18446

Screenshot 2
View attachment 18447

Screenshot 3
View attachment 18448


Screenshot 4
View attachment 18445

S1: 6
S2: 7
S3: 1
S4: 15

 

[Wheelman]

Brady to Cooks connection needs a little work. There's big plays to be had, like on a play action fake that was thrown behind Cooks. Might have been able to take that to the house depending on if he can scythe his way in between the FS and linebackers running back into coverage after biting hard. There's also the play where Cooks was left uncovered. Same issue.

On the flea flicker, I was initially annoyed with Brady for throwing into double coverage. But after looking closely, Tre Boston was just in perfect position. If Brady threw it to Hogan, Boston would have converged on him instead of Cooks. Maybe there's a better chance at a completion throwing it to Hogan but I can't fault Brady on this. Credit Tre Boston.

Hogan kept getting beat by Addae. Addae as annoying as he was celebrating like he was all that was very good in run support. Hogan still sucks after engaging players. I hope one day he improves on that.

Gronk dropped a few balls. Hope he worked on the jugs machine over the bye.

Harris veteran play showed up in recognizing the screen and not taking the bait and rushing Rivers. Screen never happens. Well done!

I didn't like the Bademosi DPI. They called him because he had his hand on the shoulder but it didn't look like he pulled the shoulder.

On the Benjamin TD, Flowers stumbles, and the left tackle grabs his arm and throws him down. I'm not sure if that's a penalty or not? I mean He was holding his arm. But like Flowers is stumbling too much for my liking. Butler and Chung jams their receivers and trails them. McCourty is left between a rock and a hard place. Butler asking McCourty where his help was. That's just bad defensive call / good offensive play calling.

Pats D needs to do a better job of getting set up against the hurry up, twice Rivers snapped the ball with the D not being set. Resulted in positive plays for the Chargers.

Missed a holding call on the final drive of the game for the Chargers. Van Noy is held and then tackled. Chargers converted a big play down the sideline.

When the Patriots were in base defense, Chung was out, Richards was in.

When Trevor Reilly was in, he played at the end of the line.

Marquis Flowers came in around the 5 minute mark when they had 6 DB's. Played off the line.

They had 7 DB's with Richards when it was 3rd and 30, or when there was only 36 seconds left in the game and they had to go far.

The Patriots have played big nickel a lot. With Chung manning the slot against 11 personnel.

 

[luuked]

For all the hate that Roberts receives, this is the upside that he gives as a run defender. He shoots gaps better than anyone else in our LB corp.

Way late because I was gone on business for a bit but this right there is the dilemma with Roberts. When he gets it right it looks great. The problem is not only that he still is a liability in coverage but that he is wildly inconsistent even in the run game. He is a boom or bust player which is exactly what you dont want from a LB in a BB defense.

 

[Wheelman]

Since there's a whole lot of Dwayne Allen hate on this board I started to document every snap he's been in starting from the 2nd half of the chargers game. For the record, I watch all his snaps and pay attention to him, just haven't written anything down until now.

Edit: I don't re-watch games we lose. That's the Chiefs(27 snaps) and Panthers(9 snaps) game.

Allen had 12 run snaps and 1 pass snap in the 2nd half of the chargers game.

In the passing snap, Chargers D dropped into coverage and Allen ran a shallow crosser. He is open for a short gain on 1st and 10. Brady is pressured right away, and moves around the pocket before throwing it away.

Allen had 10 good run blocking snaps where he engaged his man and did his job.

Allen had 1 run blocking snap where he didn't do anything wrong, just nothing he could do with the way the D moved. Result was no gain.

Allen had 2 run blocking snaps where he was beaten. Detailed below.

3rd Quarter, 1st and 10, own 45, 11 seconds left, 22 personnel with fullback.
Allen aligned to the right of line. Allen moves right to engage Bosa. But Bosa uses his arm and length to make Allen whiff a little. At the same time both Andrews and Mason drop their block on #93 and move up the field to engage the linebackers. #93 is falling to the ground but it's enough to force Gillislee to stop and avoid him. Bosa tackles him because of this delay. Allen whiffed, yes. But Joey Bosa is a great player too. And consider this, Gronk whiffed on a similar move by Ingram the play before. Ingram got to Gillislee but only after a 1st down conversion on 2nd and 3. Allen got beat, but he got beat by a great player.

4th Quarter, 1st and 10, Chargers 43, 13:22, 12 personnel, Allen and Gronk left to right at point of attack.
Allen and Gronk double teams edge defender. Allen quickly disengages and moves up to engage LB #50. Allen is unable to engage well and #50 sheds the block moving his body around Allen and tackling Gillislee. It's a 4 yard gain that could have been Gillislee vs the DB. Could have been 2nd and short or a 1st down instead. Hogan also moves inside to look for someone to block, not sure why, I'm sure there's a good reason. But if Hogan went for the DB, it might be a big play on the outside.

That being said, Allen redeems himself later in the game in another run play where he pushes Ingram inside to Solder before quickly moving up to engage LB #57 where he pushed him several yards down the field. Really good block. And if Addae wasn't having a great game in run support as mentioned in my other post, then maybe Develin isn't taken down and Gillislee doesn't stumble and that's a 1st down, and it's game over and Rivers never gets the ball to try to tie the game.


In the 1st half, I didn't notice any negative plays for Allen. I only remember that he was in on one passing down that resulted in a positive play to someone else. And the Gronk TD. I don't remember how many more passing plays he was in on during the 1st half. Allen had 7 snaps in the 1st half.

Unfortunately I haven't documented every snap Allen has played, but going by this game he's mostly in run play snaps. And he's doing a damn fine job in run blocking.

So out of all the playing time Allen has had, he's only had 2 bad plays and 1 mental error for the entire season. How the hell does Allen suck? I don't get it!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My reviewing Methodology:

Broadcast copy.
Identify every pats player on the field before the snap.
Observe.

 

[NE-VT]

Wheelman, those are two awesome film review posts. I am super impressed. You focus on particular plays yet still extrapolate to the more general themes we discuss.

If you are able to include quarter and time of game information on any plays you discuss, I will do my best effort t0 compile and post the broadcast footage of those plays. If I don't, perhaps someone else will. It is so much easier to find the plays with those two pieces of information. Getting a video posted of the plays can be very helpful, IMO: sometimes one person's insight leads to a completely different observation.

3rd Quarter, 1st and 10, own 45, 11 seconds left, 22 personnel with fullback.

This is perfect!

1st and 10, Chargers 43, 13:22, 12 personnel, Allen and Gronk left to right at point of attack.

This is harder to find. I likely need to pull up the play by play.

like on a play action fake that was thrown behind Cooks.

Super hard to find.

---

Edit:

Think of this as a friendly suggestion, not some mandatory thing. It is much better to post reflections on plays without those pieces of info than not post at all. Looking forward to seeing your next ones!

 

[NE-VT]

I was also rather late to the party here. I first watched the game at a family event, and was rather distracted by the JG trade so did not do my normal re-watching. Your thoughts on Roberts reminded me of something:

For all the hate that Roberts receives, this is the upside that he gives as a run defender. He shoots gaps better than anyone else in our LB corp.

Way late because I was gone on business for a bit but this right there is the dilemma with Roberts. When he gets it right it looks great. The problem is not only that he still is a liability in coverage but that he is wildly inconsistent even in the run game. He is a boom or bust player which is exactly what you dont want from a LB in a BB defense.

I agree with luuked's more general point. But I don't think shooting the gap is necessarily a negative in our defense. It might just limit which defensive calls are used.

This Grantland article describes how our defense is truly a 4-3 & 3-4 hybrid. At times one side of the DL is one-gapping, where the other two-gapping. AFAIK, in traditional 4-3 run fits, shooting the gap as a LB is ok. You are only responsible for that one gap, so forcing the RB to go to a different hole is good. In traditional 3-4 defense, you don't want your ILBs shooting gaps as much. This whole thing might be an oversimplification, but I believe it is generally true.

In Mayo's 11/7/17 QS podcast, he describes situations where shooting a gap is intended. He briefly describes a "dolphin" defensive call, where 3-tech DL (lined up outside guard) shoot the gaps between guard & tackle. Unfortunately, Mayo is interrupted too much to fully explain that defensive call. He also describes a "ball & chain" theme where Spikes would aggressively attack the running play to create disruption, freeing up Mayo to make the tackle (this might not actually be shooting a gap, would love input on this).

Going back to Roberts: First, I assume BB & co. know which calls maximize Robert's strengths. I also assume BB is trying to develop his versatility, so might ask him to try other techniques from time to time.

 

[ForThoseAboutToRock]

Let's play a little game called "How many yards did Lewis get?"

Total guesses here - the game's long lost to my memory by this point
Screenshot 1 - 4 yards
Screenshot 2 - 2 yards
Screenshot 3 - 6 yards
Screenshot 4 - 14 yards

 

[Tony2046]

Here are the video replays of the runs I posted earlier.

EDITED: To correct down and distances.

1ST & 10 AT NE 41 (8:48) D.Lewis left tackle to NE 41 for no gain (Tr.Williams).

This play doesn't look like it ever had a chance but DL makes a couple of nice moves and is an ankle tackle away from a few yards.


2ND & 11 AT LAC 41 (3:50) D.Lewis up the middle to LAC 34 for 7 yards (C.McCain).

This looks like he should have been stopped for a loss. The LB had him dead to rights in the backfield with little room but Dion makes a nice quick juke for a nice 7 yard gain.

1ST & 10 AT LAC 13 (1:40) D.Lewis up the middle to LAC 6 for 7 yards (K.Toomer)

This is another great run. It looks the defense formed a mini containment pocket but Lewis pops out to his right for another 7 yard gain.

1ST & 10 AT NE 34 (4:41) D.Lewis up the middle to NE 44 for 10 yards (H.Pullard; C.Hayward). PENALTY on LAC-H.Pullard, Face Mask (15 Yards), 15 yards, enforced at NE 44.

This was good Oline blocking combined with Lewis being Lewis. It results in a 15 yard facemask penalty but Lewis got 10 yards on the play.

 

[Angelpats]

Since there's a whole lot of Dwayne Allen hate on this board I started to document every snap he's been in starting from the 2nd half of the chargers game. For the record, I watch all his snaps and pay attention to him, just haven't written anything down until now.

Allen had 12 run snaps and 1 pass snap in the 2nd half of the chargers game.

In the passing snap, Chargers D dropped into coverage and Allen ran a shallow crosser. He is open for a short gain on 1st and 10. Brady is pressured right away, and moves around the pocket before throwing it away.

Allen had 10 good run blocking snaps where he engaged his man and did his job.

Allen had 1 run blocking snap where he didn't do anything wrong, just nothing he could do with the way the D moved. Result was no gain.

Allen had 2 run blocking snaps where he was beaten. Detailed below.

3rd Quarter, 1st and 10, own 45, 11 seconds left, 22 personnel with fullback.
Allen aligned to the right of line. Allen moves right to engage Bosa. But Bosa uses his arm and length to make Allen whiff a little. At the same time both Andrews and Mason drop their block on #93 and move up the field to engage the linebackers. #93 is falling to the ground but it's enough to force Gillislee to stop and avoid him. Bosa tackles him because of this delay. Allen whiffed, yes. But Joey Bosa is a great player too. And consider this, Gronk whiffed on a similar move by Ingram the play before. Ingram got to Gillislee but only after a 1st down conversion on 2nd and 3. Allen got beat, but he got beat by a great player.

1st and 10, Chargers 43, 13:22, 12 personnel, Allen and Gronk left to right at point of attack.
Allen and Gronk double teams edge defender. Allen quickly disengages and moves up to engage LB #50. Allen is unable to engage well and #50 sheds the block moving his body around Allen and tackling Gillislee. It's a 4 yard gain that could have been Gillislee vs the DB. Could have been 2nd and short or a 1st down instead. Hogan also moves inside to look for someone to block, not sure why, I'm sure there's a good reason. But if Hogan went for the DB, it might be a big play on the outside.

That being said, Allen redeems himself later in the game in another run play where he pushes Ingram inside to Solder before quickly moving up to engage LB #57 where he pushed him several yards down the field. Really good block. And if Addae wasn't having a great game in run support as mentioned in my other post, then maybe Develin isn't taken down and Gillislee doesn't stumble and that's a 1st down, and it's game over and Rivers never gets the ball to try to tie the game.


In the 1st half, I didn't notice any negative plays for Allen. I only remember that he was in on one passing down that resulted in a positive play to someone else. And the Gronk TD. I don't remember how many more passing plays he was in on during the 1st half. Allen had 7 snaps in the 1st half.

Unfortunately I haven't documented every snap Allen has played, but going by this game he's mostly in run play snaps. And he's doing a damn fine job in run blocking.

So out of all the playing time Allen has had, he's only had 2 bad plays and 1 mental error for the entire season. How the hell does Allen suck? I don't get it!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My reviewing Methodology:

Broadcast copy.
Identify every pats player on the field before the snap.
Observe.

Your analysis was just on the second half of the chargers game and you saw that he was beaten twice on run blocking snaps. That's two bad plays out of 12 snaps in half a game. There's 7 and a half more games to analyze if you want to accurately detail his entire season production thus far.

You said Allen had, "2 bad plays and 1 mental error for the entire season. How the hell does Allen suck?"

 

[luuked]

I was also rather late to the party here. I first watched the game at a family event, and was rather distracted by the JG trade so did not do my normal re-watching. Your thoughts on Roberts reminded me of something:





I agree with luuked's more general point. But I don't think shooting the gap is necessarily a negative in our defense. It might just limit which defensive calls are used.

This Grantland article describes how our defense is truly a 4-3 & 3-4 hybrid. At times one side of the DL is one-gapping, where the other two-gapping. AFAIK, in traditional 4-3 run fits, shooting the gap as a LB is ok. You are only responsible for that one gap, so forcing the RB to go to a different hole is good. In traditional 3-4 defense, you don't want your ILBs shooting gaps as much. This whole thing might be an oversimplification, but I believe it is generally true.

In Mayo's 11/7/17 QS podcast, he describes situations where shooting a gap is intended. He briefly describes a "dolphin" defensive call, where 3-tech DL (lined up outside guard) shoot the gaps between guard & tackle. Unfortunately, Mayo is interrupted too much to fully explain that defensive call. He also describes a "ball & chain" theme where Spikes would aggressively attack the running play to create disruption, freeing up Mayo to make the tackle (this might not actually be shooting a gap, would love input on this).

Going back to Roberts: First, I assume BB & co. know which calls maximize Robert's strengths. I also assume BB is trying to develop his versatility, so might ask him to try other techniques from time to time.

The question really is if you can afford to have a situational player that is inconsistent and offers little ST value on a 53 men roster.

This season obviously we do because there are no alternatives really.

I just wish he wouldnt bite so hard on misdirection plays.