NFL Coaching News: They didn't even wait until Black Monday to start the beheadings

[Ring 6]

Ive done nothing the sort. I've defended Gase for assuming 100% of the blame. You have been saying its all Gases fault this entire time. You even defended Tannenbaum.

No quote the opposite.

I said gase has done nothing to show me he is a good coach.

You turned it into a discussion about tannenbaum.

Lets see. They lost their 1200yd RB to injury, sulking and a trade. Lost their starting QB to IR and ditched their best WR and got in cap hell.

Cap hell did not affect them up until now.
You are the one saying tannehill stinks so you can’t blame gase forcthr offense sucking.
I guess you think ajayi deserves all the credit when they made a wild card then.
If losing jay ajayi destroys your team you have a coaching problem.

Oh but it was all the coaches fault. Gotcha...

Again a strawman.
I have not said it was all his fault. I never argue 100% anything. In fact almost all of my arguments (like this one) are AGAINST people claiming 100%.

I don't think you understood his role when Mangini was there and overlook the ****ty drafts after he left.

I do but why would that factor in to a discussion where you say all his teams lose and I point out he had a winning record in NY
You are moving the goalposts again.

 

[Ring 6]

They were jettisoned for cap (Landry) and cap/attitude (Ajayi) reasons.



Team culture and organizational culture are two different things.

They clearly were not on the same page philosophically.

I never said Gase couldn't coach his players. He was dealt a ****ty hand.

Huh?
You blamed the culture and said he tried to put in his own culture but a rookie 5th rounder and a wr who didn’t like his usage stopped him from doing it
Now you are moving the goalposts to say there are 2 cultures?
Which is it?

Gase did a horrible job coaching his players. They *****ed publicly, wanted to leave and very few improved at all.
These are facts.

 

[Joey007]

Please explain how he made the team better. They are coming off 2 losing seasons and are a bottom 5 offense and defense on the field.
Show me all of this improvement you see.


The discussion was about 16 vs 17. R weathers said they stopped winning whe the team was ripped apart. The 17 team has as little turnover as any nfl typically has. 17 to 18 was a bit more but not out of the norm and the better pkayers to leave, were run off by the coach.



He is supposed to coach him. Why in the world would you think he peaked at 27? That’s a losers mentality.


No he is the coach whose job is to coach and develop his players.

Development is a two way street. When the management doesn’t give the coach a solid direction to head into, it’s hard to implement any sort of stable system.

The fact that Gase started off with a playoff berth, then faced declining seasons afterwards screams of a toxic environment. Most of the positive aspects of the 2016 squad offensively (a healthy Tannehill getting coached into actually playing well, Ajayi, Landry) were no longer resources for the him by 2018.

Every issue the Dolphins offense faced was met with a terrible management decision.

Can the absolute elite levels of HC’s find ways to patch these things up? Sure. I never said Gase was at that level by any means. But most NFL coaches can only go as far as the management will let them.

The Dolphins had a lot of moves to make before firing Gase. They have much bigger problems.

 

[RobertWeathers]

No quote the opposite.

I said gase has done nothing to show me he is a good coach.

You turned it into a discussion about tannenbaum.

Because you blamed Gase for the failure. No excuses. You are wrong.

Cap hell did not affect them up until now.
You are the one saying tannehill stinks so you can’t blame gase forcthr offense sucking.
I guess you think ajayi deserves all the credit when they made a wild card then.
If losing jay ajayi destroys your team you have a coaching problem.

They have been very limited in FA for two years now.
I never said Tannehill stinks.
You are wrong that I think that about Ajayi. The made the playoffs because they had healthy players who produced.

Again a strawman.
I have not said it was all his fault. I never argue 100% anything. In fact almost all of my arguments (like this one) are AGAINST people claiming 100%.

But Im not claiming 100% Tannenbaum so what is your problem? Again, it's NOT ALL Gase. Clear?

I do but why would that factor in to a discussion where you say all his teams lose and I point out he had a winning record in NY
You are moving the goalposts again.

Saying Tannenbaum deserves credit for a winning record in NY shows that you believe he is THE reason for their success in that era. You are wrong

 

[AQPE]

My $0.02:

The issue with the Doophins isn’t Idiot Tannenbaum or Proven Nothing Gase, but at the top of the organization, their owner is a jackass with a serious Daniel Snyder complex, always looking for new bright shiny toys and wondering why they don’t work there.

Oh and since we’re discussing the Fins, F Shula and his 2-4 Super Bowl record, including getting his ass outcoached by Eubanks

 

[Ring 6]

Development is a two way street. When the management doesn’t give the coach a solid direction to head into, it’s hard to implement any sort of stable system.

How did they not give him a direction?
He was hired to improve the team, particularly to develop tannehill and build a powerhouse offense.

The fact that Gase started off with a playoff berth, then faced declining seasons afterwards screams of a toxic environment.

He is responsible for the environmental of he wants to be a good coach
You literally are making that up from a standpoint of trying to find a reason to defend him.
If that’s not the case please show me the examples of toxicity.
To me it looks like bad coaching because the deeper they got into his tenure, coaching and leadership the worse they got.

Most of the positive aspects of the 2016 squad offensively (a healthy Tannehill getting coached into actually playing well, Ajayi, Landry) were no longer resources for the him by 2018.

Again ajayi and Landry has issues with gase so his imprint is on them being gone.

Every issue the Dolphins offense faced was met with a terrible management decision.

How do?
What examples do you have?



[quote{Can the absolute elite levels of HC’s find ways to patch these things up? Sure. I never said Gase was at that level by any means. But most NFL coaches can only go as far as the management will let them.[/quote]
Let’s do this the other way.
List all of the reasons Gase is a good coach.
All you are doing is saying someone else must have sucked with nothing to back it up.
When had Gase ever succeeded other than as Manning’s caddy?
If it’s always failure and you always call it someone else fault what does that say?

The Dolphins had a lot of moves to make before firing Gase. They have much bigger problems.

Huh?
Other problems don’t change the simple fact the guy did a bad job coaching the team.

What is your response to being an offense “genius” and having 3 years to put his offense in place and having a bottom 5 offense?
Look at how many others teams have built better offense in 3 years or less.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Huh?
You blamed the culture and said he tried to put in his own culture but a rookie 5th rounder and a wr who didn’t like his usage stopped him from doing it
Now you are moving the goalposts to say there are 2 cultures?
Which is it?

They were moved because of combination of sulking, salary demands, cap problem and non-conformity and talent wasn't behind them to keep them competitive. Clear?

Gase did a horrible job coaching his players. They *****ed publicly, wanted to leave and very few improved at all.
These are facts.

he didn't have a lot to work with thats for sure.

 

[Ring 6]

Because you blamed Gase for the failure. No excuses. You are wrong.

The coach isn’t responsible for losing?
See you are saying gase has nothing to do with the failure.
He did a bad job.

They have been very limited in FA for two years now.

So.

I never said Tannehill stinks.
You are wrong that I think that about Ajayi. The made the playoffs because they had healthy players who produced.

You are calling losing ajayi the cause.

But Im not claiming 100% Tannenbaum so what is your problem? Again, it's NOT ALL Gase. Clear?

Of course you are. You have excused gase from any responsibility.
Tannrnbaum is a mediocre gm and gase is a mediocre coach.
Neither is the others excuse.

Saying Tannenbaum deserves credit for a winning record in NY shows that you believe he is THE reason for their success in that era. You are wrong

When did I say who deserved the credit?
You said his teams always had losing records. I corrected that factual mistake.

But again there you do thinking you can decide who in an organization is responsible for success or failure because you simply want to consider your opinion a fact so you can argue against fact.

See I judge everyone on their merits.
You succeed or fail. Taking credit or blame away from people responsible for success is foolish.

 

[Ring 6]

They were moved because of combination of sulking, salary demands, cap problem and non-conformity and talent wasn't behind them to keep them competitive. Clear?

Lack of leadership causes that.

he didn't have a lot to work with thats for sure.

He had a lot more to work with than what he got out of it.
Bottom 5 offense and defense. Coaching.

 

[Tony2046]

I didn't mean the 101 thing. I just thought the article did a good job of explaining the complexities of the different offensive systems. No offense meant

I don't agree the plays are all plug n play into different systems. I find it very intricate and interwoven. Different blocking schemes, route trees, protections. Its layers on layers...

I agree on finding creative minds but it's kinda like a software engineer who knows C++ and Oracle databases who know needs to learn Go in cloud networking AND develop the architecture....He/she could do it but it'll take a while

You can take any play from any system and incorporate it into another system. The lingo would change of course. Option routes, timing routes, man blocking, zone blocking etc... exist in every scheme.

I like the C++ vs Oracle analogy. But if an elite Oracle programmer told an elite C++ guy what he wanted they would get it done.

Again the critical ingredient for me is that an OC knows how to attack various defenses at a high level. I would take that guy over an average EP guy. Of course if both are equal than the EP guy gets the nod.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Lack of leadership causes that.

Sure. There is a HC, GM and Owner.

He had a lot more to work with than what he got out of it.
Bottom 5 offense and defense. Coaching.

Lost 134 games to IR too. Tons of injuries on MIA this year. Lost Landry. Maybe they go 9-7

The coach isn’t responsible for losing?
See you are saying gase has nothing to do with the failure.
He did a bad job.

I believe I listed several reasons. You are fixating on Ajayi for some reason.

Of course you are. You have excused gase from any responsibility.
Tannrnbaum is a mediocre gm and gase is a mediocre coach.
Neither is the others excuse.

Excuses, no. Likely reasons why they are both out of jobs? Yep.

When did I say who deserved the credit?
You said his teams always had losing records. I corrected that factual mistake.

But again there you do thinking you can decide who in an organization is responsible for success or failure because you simply want to consider your opinion a fact so you can argue against fact.

See I judge everyone on their merits.
You succeed or fail. Taking credit or blame away from people responsible for success is foolish.

Judging on merit is one thing.

Identifying the contributors for success and failure is an important part to evaluating talent and your operation.

 

[Tony2046]

why is Trippin' Mike Tumblin' still employed in Shytsburgh?

Don't ask why. Just be thankful.

 

[RobertWeathers]

You can take any play from any system and incorporate it into another system. The lingo would change of course. Option routes, timing routes, man blocking, zone blocking etc... exist in every scheme.

A play is a play but it's the overall philosophy. For example, the Air Coryell offense is down-the-field passing. Thats not Tom's bag. To bring in an OC who is strong minded on that point or doesn't like option routes....that won't fly here.

I like the C++ vs Oracle analogy. But if an elite Oracle programmer told an elite C++ guy what he wanted they would get it done.

Agree

Again the critical ingredient for me is that an OC knows how to attack various defenses at a high level. I would take that guy over an average EP guy. Of course if both are equal than the EP guy gets the nod.

I agree with going with the smarter guy in spirit, but if said OC didn't fully embrace EP or his thinking strayed far from what Tom was comfortable with, change for the sake of change doesn't make sense to me when Tom and BB are already there.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

I was tempted to start a new thread just so I could use the title "Detroit decides that they don't want Cooter"

Lions part ways with Jim Bob Cooter

 

[RobertWeathers]

I was tempted to start a new thread just so I could use the title "Detroit decides that they don't want Cooter"

Lions part ways with Jim Bob Cooter

I just can't take that name seriously.

 

[Ring 6]

Sure. There is a HC, GM and Owner.

But this is the point.
This is the responsibility of the coach. Making up that maybe the gm or owner had a negative impact on it doesn’t matter.
It’s the coaches job to create the culture and attitude in his team.

Lost 134 games to IR too. Tons of injuries on MIA this year. Lost Landry. Maybe they go 9-7

Every team is better if they never lose anyone and never have injuries.
Arguing he needed a perfect situation is akin to arguing he is a bad coach.

I believe I listed several reasons. You are fixating on Ajayi for some reason.

Because I addressed all the others.

Excuses, no. Likely reasons why they are both out of jobs? Yep.

Excuses.

Judging on merit is one thing.

Identifying the contributors for success and failure is an important part to evaluating talent and your operation.

Success or failure is a fact. Giving your opinion on why they success or failure happened from your living room is foolhardy.

Where it really becomes a problem is when you, like you are doing now, try to honor failure or diminish success by abdicating the responsibility.

You can lose and do a good job because you blame someone else. A coaches job is to win.

 

[Ring 6]

I was tempted to start a new thread just so I could use the title "Detroit decides that they don't want Cooter"

Lions part ways with Jim Bob Cooter

I was a big advocate of cutting him loose when they hired Marty P.
Cooter thought he deserved the job and saw the possibility of Cooter mailing it in almost to the extent of sabotage. Seems like that happened.

 

[Tony2046]

A play is a play but it's the overall philosophy. For example, the Air Coryell offense is down-the-field passing. Thats not Tom's bag. To bring in an OC who is strong minded on that point or doesn't like option routes....that won't fly here.



Agree



I agree with going with the smarter guy in spirit, but if said OC didn't fully embrace EP or his thinking strayed far from what Tom was comfortable with, change for the sake of change doesn't make sense to me when Tom and BB are already there.

Obviously whoever comes in would have to work with Tom as opposed to dictating to Tom. Just talking about attacking defenses and creativity.

I'll leave it at that because it seems you chose to battle the ultimate battler. haha

 

[RobertWeathers]

But this is the point.
This is the responsibility of the coach. Making up that maybe the gm or owner had a negative impact on it doesn’t matter.
It’s the coaches job to create the culture and attitude in his team.

Yes and Gase didn't have enough people to buy into his program.

Every team is better if they never lose anyone and never have injuries.
Arguing he needed a perfect situation is akin to arguing he is a bad coach.

I didn't say he needed a perfect situation. He needed a stable one with strong ownership and a competent GM. Any coach who doesn't have that fails.

Because I addressed all the others.

Not really. You forgot the Cutler disaster in 2017 and Landry not on the team in 2018 and the Ajayi injury/trade in 2017.

Excuses.

Success or failure is a fact. Giving your opinion on why they success or failure happened from your living room is foolhardy.

Where it really becomes a problem is when you, like you are doing now, try to honor failure or diminish success by abdicating the responsibility.

You can lose and do a good job because you blame someone else. A coaches job is to win.

Success/ failure is a fact. I get that is the name of the game in the NFL. I live it every day. But when failure happens I don't say that person sucks and fire them until I understand why failure occured and make an informed decision so corrective action will create realistic success. Stephen Ross does not have that capacity. Did he really think they were a playoff team? What is he smoking? No wonder why ****ty teams are always ****ty.

The facts is the Dolphins were 7-9. They had 34 year old starting RB, WR4 with the NEP as their WR1. 134 games lost to IR and except for a couple of players are dearth talent on D and have a jammed cap. But in your world Gase didn't win so he is a ****ty coach and deserved to be fired.

There is more to it.

Its a fact that team that flip their coaches every 2-3 years are consistent losers. Why? Crappy ownership and FO.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Obviously whoever comes in would have to work with Tom as opposed to dictating to Tom. Just talking about attacking defenses and creativity.

I'll leave it at that because it seems you chose to battle the ultimate battler. haha

Yea I don't have the resources to fight on two fronts