Gilmore or Butler on Brown?

[Ras-IR Dowling]

The question was why are people saying out Gilmore on brown.
My statement was the people saying that want to put the best cover guy on the #1 target.

Yup, the question was raised and then it became a pissing match between posters of “I’m right and your stupid for posting such a dumb idea.”

 

[supafly]

It will not be one guy manning up against Brown the entire game. So the premise is simplistic. Gilmore is the better coverage guy though. They gave him all those $$$ for a reason, and it wasn't to hold down Martavis Bryant.

I think your first sentence says it all. Double Brown (at least at times) with Butler + safety help, use Gilmore on the more physical JJSS and then use Rowe on the taller Martavius Bryant.

 

[luuked]

Yup, the question was raised and then it became a pissing match between posters of “I’m right and your stupid for posting such a dumb idea.”

Those who want Gilmore 1v1 vs Brown are stupid and it is a dumb idea.

I think we can all agree that Brown will most probably see a lot of double coverage, right ? This makes Gilmore not only a bad matchup because of Browns quickness but also a waste of resources because you waste your #1 corner AND a safety on it. Better to use Rowe/Gilmore on the other two WRs and let Butler take care of the underneath stuff on Brown.

Now of course on some plays they will change up the coverage but overall I expect the majority of snaps will go that way.


I think people are paying too much attention to AB and Bell for this game anyway. They will get theirs but personally I would be more concerned about the Steelers TE and his YAC potential in this game than the other two. The way I see this is that AB will have his double coverage and whenever Pittsburgh moves Bell out wide on a LB our second safety will shade to that side to help the LB against deep passes or they will just put DMac straight on Bell on the LOS. Either way in both cases there is space in the middle for the TE.

 

[supafly]

Whoever with Safety help over the Top wouldn't mind L Bell having a Great game if that means stopping their Air Attack. That would slow the Game down in our favor.

If you had to choose your poison, I think you’re right in wanting to stop Brown and the passing game, first.

Pretty sure Belichick has a gameplan in the HOF where they pretty much did exactly what you’re suggesting, where Thurman Thomas had 135 yds and a touchdown, but they limited the strong passing attack, or at least didn’t get beat by it.

Of course, one can argue what Bell having a “great game” really means to them, but it would make sense that Belichick would try and limit Brown, thus forcing the Steelers to march down the field in an attempt to beat us. I read an article stating that they’re the 25th ranked RZ team, offensively-speaking, and that as a team, they currently have the 5th lowest YPC average at 3.7 (Bell has a 3.9 average).

 

[GorBelSer]

I think people are paying too much attention to AB and Bell for this game anyway. They will get theirs but personally I would be more concerned about the Steelers TE and his YAC potential in this game than the other two. The way I see this is that AB will have his double coverage and whenever Pittsburgh moves Bell out wide on a LB our second safety will shade to that side to help the LB against deep passes or they will just put DMac straight on Bell on the LOS. Either way in both cases there is space in the middle for the TE.

Agree, but with so much on the line, Roethlisberger will probably look for Brown any time he can, he is been doing that all season, crazy throws all over the field counting on Brown to pull amazing catches.
I think the Steelers should get around 30 points no matter what we do, they are simply too good. But strong, balanced offensive plan can top that, much like the Cowboys did last year. Or Ravens last week, had it not been for some drops on easy catches and Flacco throwing horrible INT while they were marching down the field they would go over 40.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

The question was why are people saying out Gilmore on brown.
My statement was the people saying that want to put the best cover guy on the #1 target.

I get that, but that's not really what we do.

I can see an argument for Gilmore on Brown. It would start with wanting to by physical with him and jam him at the line always, and Gilmore is better for that.

Or maybe they think his length will work better, because Butler has covered Brown extremely well, only to see Brown make spectacular catches in tiny windows.

But saying take your #1 guy and put him on their #1 guy, I don't agree with that. We may end up doing that, but not for the simple reason of matching #1 on #1.

 

[Kontradiction]

Butler has covered Brown before. Put him on Brown and give him a lot of safety help on some of the deeper and more intermediate routes and put Gilmore/Rowe on Bryant/Smith-Schuster (it he plays).

 

[DarrylS]

In the past would have chosen Butler in a heartbeat, but recently he has played "slow" and seems to get beaten often. Then I hear that Gilmore struggles in zone defense.. then there is the possibility of Rowe.

If anything the Pats will employ a variety of coverages for Brown to keep him and Roethlisberger off balance.. F. all of the above.

 

[Kontradiction]

In the past would have chosen Butler in a heartbeat, but recently he has played "slow" and seems to get beaten often. Then I hear that Gilmore struggles in zone defense.. then there is the possibility of Rowe.

If anything the Pats will employ a variety of coverages for Brown to keep him and Roethlisberger off balance.. F. all of the above.

If the Pats stick Rowe on Brown and make Brown his primary assignment, Brown will have a career day. Rowe is a horrible match-up for Brown. Butler and Gilmore are much better match-ups. Someone is going to have to stick Bryant, though, and Gilmore is a better option for that. Give him a lot of one on one assignment duties with Bryant and move Harmon/Chung down to assist with shorter routes. That's why, if we're talking strictly who covers who in man-to-man situations, I would put Butler on Brown and give him help up top on the intermediate and deeper routes. Brown will demand safety help regardless so it makes more sense, IMO, to put your (more than capable) CB2 on him with McCourty/Harmon assisting.

 

[maineman209]

... as a team, they currently have the 5th lowest YPC average at 3.7 (Bell has a 3.9 average).

I think that erasing Bell as a receiver may be a (somewhat) hidden key to success. Bell has been Roethlisberger's second favorite receiving target, AND he's catching almost 82% of everything thrown his way.

Brown ... 160 tgts, 62% catch rate, 15.2 ypc
Bell ........ 92 tgts, 82% catch rate, 7.7 ypc
Bryant ... 67 tgts, 55% catch rate, 11.3 ypc
JJ S-S .... 56 tgts, 66% catch rate, 15.8 ypc
James (TE) ... 55 tgts, 71% catch rate, 9.1 ypc
Rogers .... 29 tgts, 52% catch rate, 8.3 ypc
MacDonald (TE) ... 17 tgts, 53% catch rate, 14.6 ypc

Confining Bell to a "ground-only" role could be very helpful in frustrating Roethlisberger's passing attack. And, although Bell can be a serious threat running the ball, forcing Ben to use him in that role only could push the Steelers into 3rd-down situations more frequently.

The Pats' run-D will also need to be wary of Conner when he subs in, though. He's about the same size as Bell (and Blount), and may be a little quicker turning the corner at this point in the season (fresher legs). His ypa is 4.5 while Bell's is down to 3.9.

 

[luuked]

I think the Steelers should get around 30 points no matter what we do, they are simply too good.

If we dont turn the ball over or give them free big plays via blown coverages/bad matchups I dont think they will hit more than 21-24. It will come down to the red zone defense winning as many of those 4 point plays as possible and force FGs.

 

[Kontradiction]

If we dont turn the ball over or give them free big plays via blown coverages/bad matchups I dont think they will hit more than 21-24. It will come down to the red zone defense winning as many of those 4 point plays as possible and force FGs.

If Haley is smart, he'd borrow the game plans KC and Miami used against the New England defense. Get Bell out in space, use outside tosses, redirection, pitches, counters, etc. and get the Patriots pursuing East to West. It's much easier to stretch the defense that way and teams seem to have more success with that type of game plan against the Pats because they're working against the weakness of the defense, the front 7, as opposed to trying to stretch the field vertically and into the strength of the defense, the secondary.

 

[patriot1136]

I really hope we can keep some decent pressure on Roethlisberger and also limit their running game. I love our secondary but they will have their hands full.

 

[luuked]

If Haley is smart, he'd borrow the game plans KC and Miami used against the New England defense. Get Bell out in space, use outside tosses, redirection, pitches, counters, etc. and get the Patriots pursuing East to West. It's much easier to stretch the defense that way and teams seem to have more success with that type of game plan against the Pats because they're working against the weakness of the defense, the front 7, as opposed to trying to stretch the field vertically and into the strength of the defense, the secondary.

The thing is that in both games the opponents were only successful because of individual breakdowns. In fact if the offense had a normal game we would have still won the Miami game.

I am not entirely sure that adjusting your gameplan to follow their example actually is viable if the Pats play at least an average overall game. Yes, you will produce yards and be able to sustain drives but it will still come down to your red zone offense to score TDs instead of FGs. And I would be happy with the Steelers trying to switch up their entire gameplan against us. Yes, please go away from things you have been practicing for a while and that have been working for you. By all means..

 

[Kontradiction]

The thing is that in both games the opponents were only successful because of individual breakdowns. In fact if the offense had a normal game we would have still won the Miami game.

I am not entirely sure that adjusting your gameplan to follow their example actually is viable if the Pats play at least an average overall game. Yes, you will produce yards and be able to sustain drives but it will still come down to your red zone offense to score TDs instead of FGs. And I would be happy with the Steelers trying to switch up their entire gameplan against us. Yes, please go away from things you have been practicing for a while and that have been working for you. By all means..

Offensive breakdowns or not, you have to be able to move the ball. The secondary is a strength. Testing them vertically plays into that strength. The defensive front is the weakness. They're banged up, undermanned, and slower. You attack the weakness, not the strength. That's why offensive game plans like KC's and Miami's (and, to a lesser extent, Carolina's) had more success moving the ball on New England even when there weren't individual breakdowns.

Now, that said, Haley isn't smart. So he's not likely to do that. I can see him coming into the game and trying to force the ball downfield to well-covered receivers because "ITS WOT WE DOO LOL", instead of exploiting the defense's weakness. He'll also probably try to run Bell right up the gut and his strength in that regard plays right into New England's strength as a unit (patient, two-gapping principles) instead giving him the ball on pitches and counters to try to isolate our backers in space.

 

[luuked]

Offensive breakdowns or not, you have to be able to move the ball. The secondary is a strength. Testing them vertically plays into that strength. The defensive front is the weakness. They're banged up, undermanned, and slower. You attack the weakness, not the strength. That's why offensive game plans like KC's and Miami's (and, to a lesser extent, Carolina's) had more success moving the ball on New England even when there weren't individual breakdowns.

I understand that. My point was that without those explosives plays that gave KC and Miami a ****ton of field position in minimal time I am not sure they would have been as successful because they would have needed to string together those long drives where one negative play might have been enough to stall it.

I'd rather they attack where our roster is weakest (but also most schematic focus from BB and MP should be at) and gain 5-6 yards per play than break big plays for 20-40.

 

[Snooky97]

Imagine Malcom with safety help and maybe at times Jones but other than that will be Malcom on brown, Gilmore on Bryant

 

[Kontradiction]

I understand that. My point was that without those explosives plays that gave KC and Miami a ****ton of field position in minimal time I am not sure they would have been as successful because they would have needed to string together those long drives where one negative play might have been enough to stall it.

I'd rather they attack where our roster is weakest (but also most schematic focus from BB and MP should be at) and gain 5-6 yards per play than break big plays for 20-40.

I'm not talking about explosive plays. I'd almost rather those plays than 5-6 yard gains on every play and clock-killing drives. The latter will keep Brady off the field for longer and their defense fresher. Offenses that decide to throw into the teeth of New England's defense are idiots. Multiple squads have shown the best way to attack them this year and those game plans have focused on stretching the field horizontally to get the front in pursuit. I don't expect the Steelers to do that, though. Haley, out of sheer pride, will probably try to push the ball down the field.

 

[GorBelSer]

If they go downfield it will be on QB. Roethlisberger likes to launch it regardless of the positioning, coverage etc. Like he was doing against the Jaguars, while the game was still within reach, chucking it deep when the chances it would actually pay off were really low. That is his game ever since he got in the NFL.

 

[Kontradiction]

If they go downfield it will be on QB. Roethlisberger likes to launch it regardless of the positioning, coverage etc. Like he was doing against the Jaguars, while the game was still within reach, chucking it deep when the chances it would actually pay off were really low. That is his game ever since he got in the NFL.

It'll be on coordinator, too, since those are the plays that Haley will be drawing up. Not only do the Steelers need to change the way they do things on defense to beat the Pats, they also need to change the way they do things on offense as well.