Why Gilmore “over“ Butler

[Ivan]

If I understand this correctly, you're de facto saying that there are 31+ corners allegedly better than Butler. I say BS. I don't agree with Miguel that Malcom is a Top 5 but he's most likely in the top 10.

Agree Gilmore is better.

I think length plays heavily into the equation, especially given this seasons schedule, e.g...Julio Jones, Kelvin Benjamin, Mike Evans. Butler is really good against an average size receiver, he struggles against the big guys and Belichick has generally shied away from using him against those receivers and found other ways to deal with them. And if you want top CB money you need to be able to match up and take away those weapons. This in no way means he isn't a really good Corner, he is, but I agree with Pissah that top 10 is a better range than top 5.

 

[RobertWeathers]

In BB I trust.

You have to trust BB on this. If he's an all-pro then Malcolm is a great memory.

 

[50-yard-line]

It sounds like you're expecting Malcolm to be loyal to the Pats for giving him the opportunity when we know the Patriots do not who loyalty on their end. For the record I have no problem with their lack of loyalty as it's the right business move, but it would be someone critical if we expect players to have loyalty that is not returned.

Trust me, I totally get your point and I'm not dismissing it. I'm just saying that anyone (despite their path) would be frustrated if they are only being compensated half of what they should be.

Yeah, I would normally agree with this. Butler isn't a UFA. He's an RFA, which is entirely different. Calling him "underpaid" means what for EVERY OTHER 4th-year player in the NFL? He signed the contract.

I have no problem with him not signing the tender and exploring his market, either. Manny Sanders did it, and I wanted the Pats to sign him. No big deal.

But if he's pouting his way out of town - trying to force a Pats' trade (otherwise, wouldn't they just take the 1st-round pick?) by threatening to play 10 games or whatever, then good riddance.

 

[BelichickFan]

I'm not going to pretend to be able to rank these guys.

I will say, though, as it stands it's a fascinating experiment as we appear to have two CB over 6'0" both with three cone times under 6.70 which is ungodly fast (Edelman's was 6.62).

Big CB with rare quickness. It will be interesting to see how it works out.

 

[rochrist]

Not to keep pushing about what's a simple misunderstanding, something can be the right thing to do but still FEEL wrong. I guess what I'm trying to say is I feel bad that Butler, a player who has done everything right for the organization on and off the field, is in the position he's in today. I don't know him personally, but I can't imagine any he wouldn't want to continue with NE were it not for all of this ****.

It just sucks, especially and selfishly as a fan, because I'd love to see him in NE's defensive backfield for the next four years at least. Imagine a tandem of Gilmore and Butler. That'd give BB and Patricia the kind of flexibility that Revis and Cromartie have Wrecks. They had no business being in two straight AFCCG's otherwise. If NE didn't win at least two more SB's with that tandem and Tom Brady, it'd be a shame. But alas, we probably won't get to see what that might look like. Who knows?

Poor guy. He's set to reel in a more than 3 million dollar raise for this season and break the bank next season. I'm not sure what you're feeling bad for unless it's that he isn't getting paid ahead of EVERY OTHER third year UDFA in the league. This is how the league works. It shouldn't be a surprise to anybody.

 

[rochrist]

View attachment 16571

Mike Giardi is certainly a little prick. There's that layer.

 

[PatsBoy12]

It sounds like you're expecting Malcolm to be loyal to the Pats for giving him the opportunity when we know the Patriots do not who loyalty on their end. For the record I have no problem with their lack of loyalty as it's the right business move, but it would be someone critical if we expect players to have loyalty that is not returned.

Trust me, I totally get your point and I'm not dismissing it. I'm just saying that anyone (despite their path) would be frustrated if they are only being compensated half of what they should be.

Yup, I agree. It's simply easy for people to say whatever they want about the "way it is" when they're unaffected by the "way it is." I never said the Patriots were wrong explicitly or implicitly, but that's how it's been construed.

Poor guy. He's set to reel in a more than 3 million dollar raise for this season and break the bank next season. I'm not sure what you're feeling bad for unless it's that he isn't getting paid ahead of EVERY OTHER third year UDFA in the league. This is how the league works. It shouldn't be a surprise to anybody.

Yup, and another one who missed my point. But it's cool. Easy to spout this stuff when it's not happening to you. Lol

 

[brdmaverick]

Poor guy. He's set to reel in a more than 3 million dollar raise for this season and break the bank next season. I'm not sure what you're feeling bad for unless it's that he isn't getting paid ahead of EVERY OTHER third year UDFA in the league. This is how the league works. It shouldn't be a surprise to anybody.

Yes, that's the system. That doesn't mean that he has to be happy about it. We live in an economic system in which many scam artists 'play the system' and wrongfully benefit from our tax dollars. That doesn't mean that we have to like it and not complain about it.

And yes, he is making millions so in no way will he be a poor man, but whether you are making $10K ,$100K, $1 mil, or $10 mil not many will be happy making that much IF their true value is double that.

So yes, I agree, it's the system. Within that the system there are winners and losers and right now it's clear that Butler is one of the losers. I'm not going to blame him for not being happy about it though.

 

[RIpats88]

Its pretty simple. BUTLER is a RFA but he wanta to be paid like a UFA.

You either take less than market value now and get more up front like gronkowski did. Or play on the tender and make big $ next year as a UFA.

Butler wants his cake and to eat it too. He wanta top 10 cb $$ and to be taken care of ahead of his UFA year. Thats not how it works. And its likely his agent doesnt understand that.

There is no benefit to the team to pay butler 14million $ when they have him for 4million. Unless that player gives them an incentive to up their pay early.

This is the deal the nflpa signed. Logan ryan made about 4million in his rookie contract, waited and then got 10million as a ufa

 

[Angelpats]

Poor guy. He's set to reel in a more than 3 million dollar raise for this season and break the bank next season. I'm not sure what you're feeling bad for unless it's that he isn't getting paid ahead of EVERY OTHER third year UDFA in the league. This is how the league works. It shouldn't be a surprise to anybody.

He has to wait like everyone else unless he accepts a discounted extension like Gronk did. It's the payoff, wait and get paid, or rush and accept lower salary.

 

[brdmaverick]

Its pretty simple. BUTLER is a RFA but he wanta to be paid like a UFA.

You either take less than market value now and get more up front like gronkowski did. Or play on the tender and make big $ next year as a UFA.

Butler wants his cake and to eat it too. He wanta top 10 cb $$ and to be taken care of ahead of his UFA year. Thats not how it works. And its likely his agent doesnt understand that.

Well, to be fair even though he is a restricted free agent he could get his expected pay day, it would just come from another team. I think we fans would rather not see that happen, but obviously I'm not going to second guess Belichick. Like PatsBoy12 I'm not saying the Patriots are doing the wrong thing, it's just unfortunate that the system and situation create these rocky relations with a guy that I think we can all genuinely root for.

 

[RIpats88]

Well, to be fair even though he is a restricted free agent he could get his expected pay day, it would just come from another team. I think we fans would rather not see that happen, but obviously I'm not going to second guess Belichick. Like PatsBoy12 I'm not saying the Patriots are doing the wrong thing, it's just unfortunate that the system and situation create these rocky relations with a guy that I think we can all genuinely root for.

It would be unlikely though because the 1st round pick syrrendered by the team signing him decreases his value.

Right now a team has to pay him top dollar and surrender a first round pick. Or wait until next year and not have to give up any collateral.

Thats why Butler looking to get paid as a top 10 corner this year is unlikely. I suspect he will be dissapointed when the saints offer him something around what the pats did due to the picks they will have to give up or trade

 

[zoostation]

Haven't read through this thread so sorry if this is a repeated opinion. Preface it by saying I like Butler a lot. I think the answer is simple. A shutdown corner is difficult to find and provides tremendous value. Butler is a shutdown but he wanted the same $$ they gave to Gilmore. Gilmore is bigger, stronger and better. Why mess around and lose a shutdown corner who won't accept the $$ the Pats think he's worth.

 

[deroc5050]

I clearly stated twice that what the Patriots are doing is the right business move. What feels wrong is the fact that Butler should be getting paid more... way more than even the tender. But this is the contract he unfortunately signed.

Well don't feel to bad for him. He is a millionaire now and next season at the very least he cashes in on a 16 milllion dollar franchise tag. Or he signs a huge deal worth 12-14m a year for 4-5 years. He will sign his tender and play this season. And if he is really good again he is going to be filthy rich. I don't feel bad for him at all. The Patriots made this guy and he came through for them.

The only thing that could go wrong for him is a nasty injury. Then he could be potentially screwed and made to play another prove it year for low market value. By that time he will be 29 years old but either way most likely he is going to get 1 big contract.

 

[PatsBoy12]

Well don't feel to bad for him. He is a millionaire now and next season at the very least he cashes in on a 16 milllion dollar franchise tag. Or he signs a huge deal worth 12-14m a year for 4-5 years. He will sign his tender and play this season. And if he is really good again he is going to be filthy rich. I don't feel bad for him at all. The Patriots made this guy and he came through for them.

The only thing that could go wrong for him is a nasty injury. Then he could be potentially screwed and made to play another prove it year for low market value. By that time he will be 29 years old but either way most likely he is going to get 1 big contract.

I hear you, Deroc. I don't feel bad for him. I never said I did, but I realize that's how my posts are being interpreted. My statement about it feeling wrong is regarding the overall situation. I hate that it's come to this as a fan of both the Pats AND MB, especially considering I do believe there was a time when both parties wanted to iron out something that would span a good chunk of MB's career. As a fan, I wanted the marriage to work. Maybe it still can, but it doesn't look likely. There was a time that I think most people took for granted that a long-term deal would happen, myself included, but whatever. I wish him the best no matter what and I know he'll eventually get paid (barring major injury), probably just not by NE. And that's the part, as a fan of both parties, that I dislike.

 

[Rusty Coupe]

Interesting article from Charles Robinson/Yahoo

How Pats value 1R

It viewed the 32nd overall pick as a mid-second round value at best, anyway. Why? The Patriots “very rarely” assign a first-round grade to more than 15-20 players in the NFL draft, a league source told Yahoo Sports. In personnel terms, this means the second-round grades for New England typically begin in the late teens or early 20s for the franchise.

So in theory, the 32nd pick would typically offer a player who has a grade similar to a player drafted as late as the 45th pick (or even later). In that way, the value at the end of the first round for the Patriots may be similar to the middle of the second or even later. From New England’s vantage point, the first-round pick surrendered for Cooks was no better than a second-round talent. And trading that kind of selection for a proven commodity like Cooks is a no-brainer.

savings in FA

guys like Chandler Jones, Jamie Collins and Jabaal Sheard. But they also don’t come with the salary cap anchor that would have been incurred had the Patriots tried to keep that threesome. While the Patriots might be more talented up the middle or on the edges with those three players, the financial commitment to sign them elsewhere was a whopping $158 million with over $90 million in guaranteed money

Gilmore

Belichick has gotten to know Gilmore inside the division for years and also leaned on wideout Chris Hogan for a lot of inside intelligence. A former Bills receiver, Hogan played with Gilmore for three seasons and had plenty of insight for Patriots coaches.

4 reasons why the Patriots have already won big in 2017 season

 

[njpatsfan]

I clearly stated twice that what the Patriots are doing is the right business move. What feels wrong is the fact that Butler should be getting paid more... way more than even the tender. But this is the contract he unfortunately signed.

It is easy to say that when you are spending someone else's money.

By the way, the disclaimer on your first post should not be that you don't know Malcolm Butler; it should be:

DISCLAIMER: This post is based on pure speculation with no facts to back it up at all. Any bearing on the reality of how professional football contracts are negotiated is purely coincidental.

 

[PatsBoy12]

It is easy to say that when you are spending someone else's money.

By the way, the disclaimer on your first post should not be that you don't know Malcolm Butler; it should be:

DISCLAIMER: This post is based on pure speculation with no facts to back it up at all. Any bearing on the reality of how professional football contracts are negotiated is purely coincidental.

Sure.

 

[Marko]

Not sure if anyone posted this, if so I apologize. The way I see it is the Pat's could have signed Butler for 11~13 million like they did Gilmore. But by signing Gilmore they get an equal player, and in addition to that they get Butler on the cheap for one year or a 1st round pick. It kind of sucks for Butler, but if Gilmore is even equal to his play, it was a much better move than signing Butler long term. Gilmore and a 1st round or Butler alone is no contest.

 

[BelichickFan]

Not sure if anyone posted this, if so I apologize. The way I see it is the Pat's could have signed Butler for 11~13 million like they did Gilmore. But by signing Gilmore they get an equal player, and in addition to that they get Butler on the cheap for one year or a 1st round pick. It kind of sucks for Butler, but if Gilmore is even equal to his play, it was a much better move than signing Butler long term. Gilmore and a 1st round or Butler alone is no contest.

Which likely gets us 2 cheap years of Cooks.

Butler (and probably a little cap space) for Gilmore and 2 cheap years of Cooks.