Why Gilmore “over“ Butler

[JMC00]

Just an FYI this was Gilmore in Jim Schwartz's system, which we all know is a Belichick disciple. 2014 was Gilmore's best year.

 

[Ring 6]

No, they don't. The contract that the player signed allows the team to cut the player without having to pay the rest of the money. Those are the terms, agreed to by both sides. The team is breaking NOTHING. And there is nothing stopping the player from being more conservative and accepting a lower salary to get a 100% guaranteed contract that'll pay out the full value even if cut.

Which is why they get signing bonuses.

 

[HawaiianPatsfan]

Disclaimer: I don't know Butler personally

The final paragraph is not what Butler is all about. That guy went from undrafted to stater in less than a full season (if you're thinking games played) precisely because he's extremely confident and thinks very highly of himself. That's not going to change because a writer suggests that would be the way to go. He absolutely feels marginalized and I believe he wants out. He is likely saying, "I worked my ass off for myself and this team, I saved a Super Bowl for this team, and homeboy is getting my money? Oh hell nah!"

It's hard for me to compeletly condemn him if that is truly his position. It may be the right business move by the team, but it still feels wrong. Any one of us would feel slighted in his position. Butler has done a lot for this team. Some fans feel he should simply sign the tender. It does represent a significant pay increase. But teams break the terms on contracts all the time, yet we want the players to abide by those terms strictly when it benefits the team. The players are risking everything on the gridiron.

On the flip side, the team is making the choice that makes sense and, had he gotten in line, one has to believe he'd be in position to make what he wants (or maybe just slightly less) with this team. This whole situation seems so avoidable. But you take a shrewd financial coach, a super confident player and a completely amateur agent and if all equals most likely losing a player who should have been a pillar on defense.

Its not about what butler earned, its about what he's asking. Butler is an amazing corner, one of the best skill for skill in the league, there no question about that. But unfortunately for him, god didn't gift him with the same measurable's and athletic ability as the "top 10 highest paid" corners in the league.

Every highest paid corner from 1st - 10th is all listed over 6'0 ft except Joe Haden. Butler is only 5'9.6. Unfortunately for him that presents a matchup problem in todays NFL where many of the elite WR's are averaging about 6'3 and bigger. Butler can not play pure man to man with these guys without receiving help, its really that simple. On top of it, he also is not the most athletic, and has short arms and a subpar vertical, so he doesn't get much help there. The reason these guys are paid like top 10 players is because theyre capable of covering every type of top 10 receiver (big or small) They are matchup universal. You cant be asked to be paid that kind of money if you aren't capable doing that, and unfortunately for Butler, he physically isnt. It sucks, but its the reality of his situation.

History doesnt bode well for shorter corners in terms of being great and the highest paid at their positions during their respective time. Heres a list of what is considered the greatest corners, you begin to see the importance of height at the position. Out of the greatest to every play the position, one one is 5'9 and another being 5'11. The rest are all over 6 ft. it just shows the value and importance of height at the position.

**** Lebeau 6'1
Lester Hayes 6'1
Richard Sherman 6'3
Ty law. 5'11.8
Mel Renfro 6'0
Darrell Revis 5'11.7
Mike Haynes 6'2
Charles Woodson 6'1
Herb Adderley 6'1
Darrell Green 5'9
Champ Bailey 6'1
Mel Blount 6'3
**** Lane 6'3
Deion Sanders 6'1
Rod Woodson 5'11
Ronnie Lot 6'0

 

[deroc5050]

Its not about what butler earned, its about what he's asking. Butler is an amazing corner, one of the best skill for skill in the league, there no question about that. But unfortunately for him, god didn't gift him with the same measurable's and athletic ability as the "top 10 highest paid" corners in the league.

Every highest paid corner from 1st - 10th is all listed over 6'0 ft except Joe Haden. Butler is only 5'9.6. Unfortunately for him that presents a matchup problem in todays NFL where many of the elite WR's are averaging about 6'3 and bigger. Butler can not play pure man to man with these guys without receiving help, its really that simple. On top of it, he also is not the most athletic, and has short arms and a subpar vertical, so he doesn't get much help there. The reason these guys are paid like top 10 players is because theyre capable of covering every type of top 10 receiver (big or small) They are matchup universal. You cant be asked to be paid that kind of money if you aren't capable doing that, and unfortunately for Butler, he physically isnt. It sucks, but its the reality of his situation.

History doesnt bode well for shorter corners in terms of being great and the highest paid at their positions during their respective time. Heres a list of what is considered the greatest corners, you begin to see the importance of height in the position. Out of the greatest to every play the position, one one is 5'9 and another being 5'11. The rest are all over 6 ft. it just shows the value and importance of height at the position.

**** Lebeau 6'1
Lester Hayes 6'1
Richard Sherman 6'3
Ty law. 5'11.8
Mel Renfro 6'0
Darrell Revis 5'11.7
Mike Haynes 6'2
Charles Woodson 6'1
Herb Adderley 6'1
Darrell Green 5'9
Champ Bailey 6'1
Mel Blount 6'3
**** Lane 6'3
Deion Sanders 6'1
Rod Woodson 5'11
Ronnie Lot 6'0

You don't think Butler is a top 10 CB in the NFL today?

 

[HawaiianPatsfan]

You don't think Butler is a top 10 CB in the NFL today?

In terms of skill for skill, yes I certainly do. What he is not, is not one of the 10 best matchup pieces a defensive coordinator could have. A true number 1 corner is a player you can take and stick on ANY Wr your opponent may present that week, wether they are 6'5, or 5'10. You can do so without worrying he's going to constantly get beat on jump ball after jump ball, play after play. Like I said, the top 10 highest PAID players all have the physical size to not be such a liability. With Butler, he just doesnt have that. If you put him on Julio, in single coverage, or a Mike Evans, he's going to get beat purely because his size, at least 50-75% of the time. 13 Million dollar corners have to be able to guard 15 million dollar recivers. You cant be a 13 million dollar man, who needs another 4-5 million dollar safety for help.. Thats doesn't even factor the extra man which is something you cant even put a number value on.

 

[deroc5050]

In terms of skill for skill, yes I certainly do. What he is not, is not one of the 10 best matchup pieces a defensive coordinator could have. A true number 1 corner is a player you can take and stick on ANY Wr your opponent may present that week, wether they are 6'5, or 5'10. You can do so without worrying he's going to constantly get beat on jump ball after jump ball, play after play. Like I said, the top 10 highest players all have the physical size to not be such a liability. With Butler, he just doesnt have that. If you put him on Julio, in single coverage, or a Mike Evans, he's going to get beat purely because his size, at least 50-75% of the time. 13 Million dollar corners have to be able to guard 15 million dollar recivers. You cant be a 13 million dollar man, who needs another 4-5 million dollar safety for help.. Thats doesn't even factor the extra man which is something you cant even put a number value on.

I don't have the percentages of the time he was 1 on 1 but Butler didn't get beat very often. I get it.. he is under sized thats the only knock on him. But it certainly hasn't been much of an issue. Butler will probably get a 3 OR 4 year deal worth 12-13m a season.

 

[luuked]

Which is why they get signing bonuses.

Signing bonuses are just a construct for cap/cash flow control for the teams. I doubt that a player cares much if his money is coming from a signing bonus or guaranteed base salary.

 

[HawaiianPatsfan]

I don't have the percentages of the time he was 1 on 1 but Butler didn't get beat very often. I get it.. he is under sized thats the only knock on him. But it certainly hasn't been much of an issue. Butler will probably get a 3 OR 4 year deal worth 12-13m a season.

Thats because Bill never put him in that position. The only time he guarded #1 receivers 1 on 1 was with players like Antonio Brown, and OBJ. When it came to the taller bigger players, Usually Logan Ryan played them with close support safety help, and when Butler did, he also got close safety help. Thats his problem. True numbers 1's shouldn't absolutely need safety help. That is the reason he doesn't deserve to be paid like a true #1

 

[slash83]

Im not gonna say Gilmore is better, he's only like an 83 in Madden 17 and Butler is like a 91.

 

[PatsBoy12]

Its not about what butler earned, its about what he's asking. Butler is an amazing corner, one of the best skill for skill in the league, there no question about that. But unfortunately for him, god didn't gift him with the same measurable's and athletic ability as the "top 10 highest paid" corners in the league.

Every highest paid corner from 1st - 10th is all listed over 6'0 ft except Joe Haden. Butler is only 5'9.6. Unfortunately for him that presents a matchup problem in todays NFL where many of the elite WR's are averaging about 6'3 and bigger. Butler can not play pure man to man with these guys without receiving help, its really that simple. On top of it, he also is not the most athletic, and has short arms and a subpar vertical, so he doesn't get much help there. The reason these guys are paid like top 10 players is because theyre capable of covering every type of top 10 receiver (big or small) They are matchup universal. You cant be asked to be paid that kind of money if you aren't capable doing that, and unfortunately for Butler, he physically isnt. It sucks, but its the reality of his situation.

History doesnt bode well for shorter corners in terms of being great and the highest paid at their positions during their respective time. Heres a list of what is considered the greatest corners, you begin to see the importance of height at the position. Out of the greatest to every play the position, one one is 5'9 and another being 5'11. The rest are all over 6 ft. it just shows the value and importance of height at the position.

**** Lebeau 6'1
Lester Hayes 6'1
Richard Sherman 6'3
Ty law. 5'11.8
Mel Renfro 6'0
Darrell Revis 5'11.7
Mike Haynes 6'2
Charles Woodson 6'1
Herb Adderley 6'1
Darrell Green 5'9
Champ Bailey 6'1
Mel Blount 6'3
**** Lane 6'3
Deion Sanders 6'1
Rod Woodson 5'11
Ronnie Lot 6'0

I appreciate your write up here. However, if you understood what I was really trying to say, you'd realize you may have wasted some time. I don't disagree with much of what you posted... it was just unnecessary because I am not saying I believe Butler "deserves" anything. The overall premise is I understand why HE would feel slighted. Anyone in his position would, right or wrong.

I posted in the Gilmore thread that Stephon is far more physically gifted than Butler. So I do understand the move BB made. Again, my post was not regarding that though. I never said NE was wrong in anything they've done. It just feels wrong to me that we've reached this point with MB, no matter who's to blame. A year of so ago it felt like a forgone conclusion he'd be with us long-term. Now, it feels like a forgone conclusion that he'll be playing elsewhere in the not so distant future. How is it that some understood my post so clearly and others didn't? Lol

 

[Ring 6]

Signing bonuses are just a construct for cap/cash flow control for the teams. I doubt that a player cares much if his money is coming from a signing bonus or guaranteed base salary.

Well guaranteed salaries are a new phenomena. But fir contracts that are not guaranteed or not fully guaranteed tjebsigninf bonus is the trade off. If NFL contracts were guaranteed like baseball there would be no signing bonus and not every contract has guaranteed salaries.

 

[luuked]

If NFL contracts were guaranteed like baseball there would be no signing bonus and not every contract has guaranteed salaries.

But parts of those contracts are already guaranteed like in baseball. The only reason we have signing bonuses is because it helps with the accounting aspect of the salary cap (as you can spread it over years) and with the general cashflow of a team (as not every team has unlimited cash available 365 days a year).

Anyway.. we are nitpicking..

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Gilmore will make more plays..INTs...FF ect. Butler is more physical in my eyes

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Signing bonuses are just a construct for cap/cash flow control for the teams. I doubt that a player cares much if his money is coming from a signing bonus or guaranteed base salary.

Dunno about that. He gets the signing bonus in full when he signs. While he's guaranteed to get the guaranteed salary, he has to wait for each year to roll by to get that year's guaranteed salary. Money upfront is always better than money in the future.

 

[Ring 6]

But parts of those contracts are already guaranteed like in baseball. The only reason we have signing bonuses is because it helps with the accounting aspect of the salary cap (as you can spread it over years) and with the general cashflow of a team (as not every team has unlimited cash available 365 days a year).

Anyway.. we are nitpicking..

Not all NFL contracts are guaranteed and until just a few years ago none were.

The signing bonus was/is necessary because the contracts were/are not guaranteed. It's a trade off the players make. Up front money vs guarantee. If all contracts were guaranteed there would be no signing bonuses and no need for them.

 

[Pessimistic Pete]

Amazing how no one on this board would even consider Gilmore a top 10 CB in the league last year.

Now all of the sudden he's better than Butler aka one of the best CBs in the league.

 

[luuked]

Dunno about that. He gets the signing bonus in full when he signs. While he's guaranteed to get the guaranteed salary, he has to wait for each year to roll by to get that year's guaranteed salary. Money upfront is always better than money in the future.

That's not necessarily true. Signing bonuses are also paid out in installments depending on the cash flow situation of the team. But, yeah, cash up today is usually better than cash tmw.

 

[luuked]

Not all NFL contracts are guaranteed and until just a few years ago none were.

The signing bonus was/is necessary because the contracts were/are not guaranteed. It's a trade off the players make. Up front money vs guarantee. If all contracts were guaranteed there would be no signing bonuses and no need for them.

I am giving up. You are either not reading what I am writing or it is just formulated too complicated. Anyway.. moving on.

 

[Ring 6]

I am giving up. You are either not reading what I am writing or it is just formulated too complicated. Anyway.. moving on.

No fully reading and understanding. You should work on the same.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

I'm really glad BB is evolving toward the taller longer corners. I remember the days of BB drafting 5'9 corners all the time and having to watch Hobbs, wilhite, Wheatley, O'Neill get burned on jump balls every game.

Gave 6'1 Gilmore a huge contract
Traded high draft picks for 6'1 Rowe