Kraft Orchids Case - Prosecuters Want a Tug Rule?

[Kontradiction]

The fact that you can't remember a time you were wrong and would have to 'review' conversations is really telling, Andy.

I dug in my heels that Belichick was a bad choice. I was wrong.

There was no way we were cutting Reche Caldwell and anyone who said otherwise was dumb. I was wrong.

Chad Johnson and Albert Haynesworth were going to be monsters for us, I was wrong. Sterling Moore is a solid DB there's no way we're cutting him. I was wrong.

Erik Rowe is a solid DB there's no way the team is judging him as harshly as fans. I was wrong.

That's just off the top of my head.

The game here is that we argue. And when there's clear proof one of us is wrong the person who is wrong owns up to it, at least a little bit. The fact that you can't remember being wrong and I can't remember you ever admitting to it makes me even less-inclined to ever debate with you.

Hell, I was wrong about the Patriots' Super Bowl chances. I made a post in the immediate wake of it roasting myself and apologizing to the poster I gave hell to. It's something that most people are readily capable of admitting. It leads to learning from your mistakes on top of personal growth.

Andy's been caught red handed multiple times in this thread, with his own words from earlier quoted against him, and he's choosing dying on this hill. He's getting killed. And he'd rather spend all day arguing on here about how his words (which are being quoted) are being "bastardized" instead of just admitting it, moving on, and getting back to... whatever it is that he does for a living. That's a major, major character flaw and is probably one of the many reasons he's got a job where he's able to spend all day on here as opposed to working for a living and popping in and out during breaks like the rest of us do.

 

[Ring 6]

Oh, Andy. Andy, Andy, Andy.



You didn't believe they would rule that way. You stated as much yourself. Guess what? They ruled that way. You believed wrong. Therefore, you were wrong. This is in addition to your post on page one. Three words. "I... was... wrong." Let's hear 'em.

EDIT: By the way, have you been on here all day? It's Tuesday. Don't you have a job to do?

That’s all you got?
Yes before there were any details I made a guess that turned out to be wrong. Wow you really got me there.

 

[Ring 6]

You are so totally full of crap.

Hell, I was wrong about the Patriots' Super Bowl chances. I made a post in the immediate wake of it roasting myself and apologizing to the poster I gave hell to. It's something that most people are readily capable of admitting. It leads to learning from your mistakes on top of personal growth.

Andy's been caught red handed multiple times in this thread,

100% wrong.

with his own words from earlier quoted against him,

100% wrong.

and he's choosing dying on this hill. He's getting killed. And he'd rather spend all day arguing on here about how his words (which are being quoted)

100% wrong

are being "bastardized" instead of just admitting it, moving on, and getting back to... whatever it is that he does for a living. That's a major, major character flaw and is probably one of the many reasons he's got a job where he's able to spend all day on here as opposed to working for a living and popping in and out during breaks like the rest of us do.

You have more posts than me meathead, and I guarantee I have a better job than you.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Hell, I was wrong about the Patriots' Super Bowl chances. I made a post in the immediate wake of it roasting myself and apologizing to the poster I gave hell to. It's something that most people are readily capable of admitting. It leads to learning from your mistakes on top of personal growth.

Andy's been caught red handed multiple times in this thread, with his own words from earlier quoted against him, and he's choosing dying on this hill. He's getting killed. And he'd rather spend all day arguing on here about how his words (which are being quoted) are being "bastardized" instead of just admitting it, moving on, and getting back to... whatever it is that he does for a living. That's a major, major character flaw and is probably one of the many reasons he's got a job where he's able to spend all day on here as opposed to working for a living and popping in and out during breaks like the rest of us do.

I recall your posts about this; and your reasoning was pretty sound, as was most people's last year, which is that it appeared their defense and overall team were absolutely not SB caliber, and certainly not if they'd have to win on the road. Michael Lombardi is a team insider and had a similar opinion. Heck, I don't think Belichick or Brady would have, in all honesty, taken their chances with the 2018 squad over a lot of other teams, without hindsight.

I am the infamous "cut Edelman" shouter in 2012 when he was the fifth option and landed on the esteemed (at the time) Aaron Hernandez's ankle when they crossed during a route. I said he was a gimmicky punt returner and bubble roster player (though I will say the 2013 free agency suggested my opinion wasn't as far off as it appears now.)

Anyway, we all make a lot of predictions that don't come true, just like anyone, but it's just such a bad look to be the 1 contrarian out of about 25 people and predictably double down afterwards.

I would advise you not to get sucked in this black hole, though, because that's what these arguments with AJ are.

 

[Kontradiction]

That’s all you got?
Yes before there were any details I made a guess that turned out to be wrong. Wow you really got me there.

There were reports coming out about the legality of their footage at the time. You still made an assertion that I don’t believe they will rule that way with about 17 pages left to go in the thread prior to today's merge. You then continued to argue your stance after that. But I'll take this...

I made a guess that turned out to be wrong

...on top of your post on page one of this thread as an admission that you do, indeed, know that... yes... you were wrong. Thanks for coming clean.

You are so totally full of crap.


100% wrong.


100% wrong.


100% wrong



You have more posts than me meathead, and I guarantee I have a better job than you.

Most of those posts accumulated when I was in a call center prior to graduating college. With very little responsibility. That's how I know your job isn't worth a damn. You, on the other hand, are replying to my posts within mere minutes (where it's taking me hours to get back to you) on a Tuesday. You're also very much more active than I am recently during the week. Somehow, I highly doubt that your job holds any sort of weight. If it somehow does, I don't think you'll be holding it for very long. On top of the inability to admit that you're wrong being a personal and professional weakness, I would highly doubt that your employer is going to be paying you a top-level salary for very long for you to sit on PatsFans.com all day. Especially at your advanced age. You may be looking at either a demotion or a severance package of some kind in your near future. Get back to work, Andy. I'm sure you're very special and your company needs you dearly.

 

[Kontradiction]

I recall your posts about this; and your reasoning was pretty sound, as was most people's last year, which is that it appeared their defense and overall team were absolutely not SB caliber, and certainly not if they'd have to win on the road. Michael Lombardi is a team insider and had a similar opinion. Heck, I don't think Belichick or Brady would have, in all honesty, taken their chances with the 2018 squad over a lot of other teams, without hindsight.

I am the infamous "cut Edelman" shouter in 2012 when he was the fifth option and landed on the esteemed (at the time) Aaron Hernandez's ankle when they crossed during a route. I said he was a gimmicky punt returner and bubble roster player (though I will say the 2013 free agency suggested my opinion wasn't as far off as it appears now.)

Anyway, we all make a lot of predictions that don't come true, just like anyone, but it's just such a bad look to be the 1 contrarian out of about 25 people and predictably double down afterwards.

I would advise you not to get sucked in this black hole, though, because that's what these arguments with AJ are.

Why not? This is easy work. I'll be back on his safe space ignore list in no time. That's how it usually happens.

 

[Joker]

I was wrong once...I said I'd ride a mile on a camel for a date with Dorothy Hamill. Actually I was prepared to be Katarina Witt's footstool for life.

and...after all these years of positively sanguine replies,finally...at last...Chris In Sunnyvale's dark side rises from the cyber ether...

 

[chris_in_sunnyvale]

I was wrong once...I said I'd ride a mile on a camel for a date with Dorothy Hamill. Actually I was prepared to be Katarina Witt's footstool for life.

and...after all these years of positively sanguine replies,finally...at last...Chris In Sunnyvale's dark side rises from the cyber ether...

You thought Daenerys' heel turn was sudden? You ain't seen jack ****.

Regards,
Chris

 

[Kontradiction]

I was wrong once...I said I'd ride a mile on a camel for a date with Dorothy Hamill. Actually I was prepared to be Katarina Witt's footstool for life.

and...after all these years of positively sanguine replies,finally...at last...Chris In Sunnyvale's dark side rises from the cyber ether...

Just once? That’s it? Maybe you and Andy can get together for a Salisbury Steak and a Natty Light to reminisce. Treat’s on him, obviously. He just needs to wait until Friday when he gets paid.

 

[maust]

and...after all these years of positively sanguine replies,finally...at last...Chris In Sunnyvale's dark side rises from the cyber ether...

He must have believed it when I said not to be taken in by all those memes, that we really do have cookies.

 

[Ring 6]

There were reports coming out about the legality of their footage at the time. You still made an assertion that I don’t believe they will rule that way with about 17 pages left to go in the thread prior to today's merge. You then continued to argue your stance after that. But I'll take this...


...on top of your post on page one of this thread as an admission that you do, indeed, know that... yes... you were wrong. Thanks for coming clean.



Most of those posts accumulated when I was in a call center prior to graduating college. With very little responsibility. That's how I know your job isn't worth a damn. You, on the other hand, are replying to my posts within mere minutes (where it's taking me hours to get back to you) on a Tuesday. You're also very much more active than I am recently during the week. Somehow, I highly doubt that your job holds any sort of weight. If it somehow does, I don't think you'll be holding it for very long. On top of the inability to admit that you're wrong being a personal and professional weakness, I would highly doubt that your employer is going to be paying you a top-level salary for very long for you to sit on PatsFans.com all day. Especially at your advanced age. You may be looking at either a demotion or a severance package of some kind in your near future. Get back to work, Andy. I'm sure you're very special and your company needs you dearly.

You know nothing about me Meathead.

 

[Soliel]

I’m declaring victory! I’ve said what would happen. It went just like I told you. Now I demand full retractions, apologies and anyone who disagreed should wear sack and ash cloth for the next seven days. After that, I’ll consider apologies

 

[fnordcircle]

Those are predictions.

I'm talking about actual arguments I've had online and I had to admit I was wrong not random thoughts in my head. You know this but you're trying to redefine what I'm asking so you can avoid an inconvenient fact about yourself. Or maybe you truly don't see it.

So I'll try to ask again in as clear a way as possible:

Andy - have you ever dug in your heels and had a multi page argument on any topic and subsequently admitted to being wrong?

I'm prepared to be disappointed by your answer because my gut says you're not going to give me a yes or no you're going to play word games or try to warp reality to get around answering it.

If you actually say yes and give me an example you know what I'll do? I'll admit I was wrong.

 

[PatriotsReign]

Always trust the police when they're talking about the deceit done by other police?

I have 2 retired cops I play golf with. They told me the fact that they busted 28 guys for solicitation meant there was no human trafficking

They said that would be protocol. You don’t blow an important case to make minor arrests

 

[fnordcircle]

I have 2 retired cops I play golf with. They told me the fact that they busted 28 guys for solicitation meant there was no human trafficking

They said that would be protocol. You don’t blow an important case to make minor arrests

I don't know if I'm cynical but the moment they started talking about human trafficking while busting johns and workers I got suspicious.

It seemed like a convenient way to drum up public support for the investigation by using a hot button term. What really sucks is that I deeply care about sex trafficking as I think any one of us who is capable of empathy does. When you casually toss around sex trafficking claims because the women who worked there were living on-site and the lifestyle of an asian immigrant isn't going to be the same as Donna from Phoenix Arizona and her family it cheapens the real problem out there with sex trafficking/sex slavery.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm talking about actual arguments I've had online and I had to admit I was wrong not random thoughts in my head. You know this but you're trying to redefine what I'm asking so you can avoid an inconvenient fact about yourself. Or maybe you truly don't see it.

So I'll try to ask again in as clear a way as possible:

Andy - have you ever dug in your heels and had a multi page argument on any topic and subsequently admitted to being wrong?

I'm prepared to be disappointed by your answer because my gut says you're not going to give me a yes or no you're going to play word games or try to warp reality to get around answering it.

If you actually say yes and give me an example you know what I'll do? I'll admit I was wrong.

I honestly can’t think of any that you describe that I admitted I was wrong OR that I claimed I was right. Those type of long discussions, are generally opinion based, and generally have many facets not a right or wrong. Seriously I’d have to stop and think to recall any of them. But I will try

I mentioned the rookie cuts getting picked up and not making it to the practice squad. That’s one.

I mentioned Kingsbury and Murray. Not sure why you want to think that doesn’t count.

When Belichick switched from 3-4 to 4-3 I was skeptical. I mean that creates a discussion/argument but like I said it’s all prediction/opinion and the answer comes later.

As I said if you want to show examples that you think I was wrong about, if I was, I will readily admit it.
If you can’t give an example you are just playing games.

 

[fnordcircle]

As I said if you want to show examples that you think I was wrong about, if I was, I will readily admit it.
If you can’t give an example you are just playing games.

points in exasperation at the entire thread

 

[Ring 6]

points in exasperation at the entire thread

So show me an example of things I actually said.
That’s the point.
What specifically are you saying I was wrong about?
Telling a lynchmob to slow down and wait for facts is not wrong. Not accepting conspiracy theories without fact is not wrong.
This thread was an exercise of people putting words in my mouth to create something to argue against that I didn’t say.
The incorrect things that people attributed to me were wrong in many ways. But those weren’t the things I actually said.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I have 2 retired cops I play golf with. They told me the fact that they busted 28 guys for solicitation meant there was no human trafficking

They said that would be protocol. You don’t blow an important case to make minor arrests

I don't know if I'm cynical but the moment they started talking about human trafficking while busting johns and workers I got suspicious.

It seemed like a convenient way to drum up public support for the investigation by using a hot button term. What really sucks is that I deeply care about sex trafficking as I think any one of us who is capable of empathy does. When you casually toss around sex trafficking claims because the women who worked there were living on-site and the lifestyle of an asian immigrant isn't going to be the same as Donna from Phoenix Arizona and her family it cheapens the real problem out there with sex trafficking/sex slavery.

Here is one of many articles that broke when this happened, all a big PR campaign from these losers.

Alleged human trafficking ring at spa where Bob Kraft charged for soliciting prostitutes

Spa tied to international human-trafficking, authorities say

The sexual activity at the spa, sandwiched among a surf shop, a nail salon, a game room and a Thai restaurant, is believed to be tied to an international human-trafficking and prostitution ring extending to New York and to China.

Under state and federal law, human trafficking is defined as soliciting, recruiting, harboring, transporting or otherwise obtaining another person to exploit him or her for labor, domestic servitude or sexual exploitation. Florida ranks third in the nation in the number of cases reported to the national human-trafficking hotline.

“Our concern in this investigation centers around victims of human trafficking,” Kerr said, adding that authorities are working with advocacy groups and interpreters to gain information and help those who were trafficked.

 

[Ring 6]

Here is a sampling of my posts throughout this thread. Random with the exception of not including posts that wouldn’t make sense without seeing the post it responded to.
Please show me where I am so wrong or how it’s not clear that I said all along my opinion was based upon the known facts not assumptions or unconfirmed reports.

No I have no horse in this race. My position is being objective. I’m the guy arguing that we can’t draw a conclusion without facts.

But let’s run with your thought.
The Florida department is health reported the spa in July of 2018 as a place where prostitution was occurring and the workers appeared to for the profile of trafficked people.
The 8 month investigation culminated in a few days of taped surveillance in January 2019 where bob kraft visited twice.

Are you honestly telling me the department of health reported potential human trafficking in order to set up bob kraft for a misdemeanor charge the following January and the police put forth 6 months of investigation into setting up bob kraft for a misdemeanor?
Further in order to set up a billionaire who would no doubt hire the best lawyers available to fight the charges, the decided to lie to a judge in order to get a warrant for human trafficking all the while having the prescience to know that when they set up the cameras in a town kraft doesn’t primarily live in the week his team is in the afccg in kc that in those few days he would show.
Come on

I don’t believe that there was a 6 month investigation based upon trafficking that suddenly turned into hurry up and lie to get a warrant so we can arrest a billionaire on a misdemeanor and have his expensive lawyers come after us and try to get us fired.
I mean what is the motivation?

I have not at all dismissed any notion that something untoward happened. I have consistently said there is nothing available to us that indicates it has. It’s possible but it’s not likely. So until there is some kind of indication that something happened I’m not going to believe a conspiracy theory that it did.
That is as objective as it gets.
I believe what I see. Show me more and I will change my opinion if it warrants it.
How can you disagree with that?

Loomat wgat you are saying here. Do you honestly think it’s objective to make up
someone for no reason we can identify with no evidence it happened that someone set kraft up?
I mean by response to you is all if the reasons it’s unlikeky.
It’s not impossible just extremely unlikeky.
If it turns out to have happened then my objectivity allows that to change my view but I can’t make something up with no real evidence and argue it and call myself objective

Objective means open to all information without bias not gullible and reliant upon guesses.

What is available to us, which isn’t really a lot.

That’s the problem, people are making assumptions then arguing as if they are fact, and I’m saying we do not know that.

Yes and no. 1 is actually irrelevant anyway because audio isn’t relevant. But as you said regarding the bomb threat we still don’t know because it’s the wrong warrant
As to # 2 I still see a fine line. If they suspect trafficking for the purpose of prostitution then investigating prostitution would be the first step of an overall far reaching investigation. So both no the purpose of the warrant wasn’t to make trafficking arrests, but also no that doesn’t mean part of the motivation for the investigation wasn’t to begin pursuit of suspected traffickers.


There have been reports that younger prostitutes were considered victims and not charged.

That’s the point. I DIDNT. I said all the reports said it was.
Please tell me you can understand the difference.

I didnt say I found it in reports. I said all reporting on the case was in agreement that the warrants were obtained to investigate human trafficking.
I have no idea whether human trafficking happened because I don’t have the facts. None of us do
But when discussing the case and all reports say the investigation was about human trafficking, then it’s a reasonable assumption until there is a determination one way or the other.
Again I never said there was human trafficking going on I said the warrant was about human trafficking because every report said it was.
Whenever we see the warrant we will know one way or the other.

That is because I only argue in Black and White.
I am not going to argue whether trafficking happened or not until there are facts to prove it. If the facts change I was not wrong because my opinion was based upon, and clearly stated as based upon, the available facts.
I don’t understand how anyone could ever waste their time arguing about what they are guessing.

I find your comment interesting.

This is my understanding which I admit is an impression and could be wrong.

Human trafficking throughout the world is a major issue.
Trafficked woman are often sold into the sex trade.
There is a high frequency of trafficking among Asian women.

So if there are brothels all over Florida with Asian women living in them and never leaving how do you confidently draw the conclusion that it doesn’t happen rather than it can’t be proven.
Surely we can agree that crimes happen that can’t be proven, and professional criminals employ methods to make their crimes difficult to prove.

As I said I don’t know what is happening, but I’m curious how you can be so confident (confident enough to tell the poster he is unequivocally wrong) that it’s not a case of it is occurring but can’t be proven and prosecuted?

I think the burden of proof lies on both sides.
Both of the things you describe above are feelings and biases and people are bending the facts or making up facts to suit their bias.

I think the difference here is that we have a pretty good understanding of what the evidence that he committed the crime is.

We have pretty much zero story from krafts side that disputes the facts.

So one side, my side, is everything we see indicates he did it and until we see more to dispute that, as of now, it seems obvious.

At this point the only way to dispute that is to
1) argue he can get off on a technicality (if which there is yet no proof one exists)
2) prove innocence by attacking those accusing him of being guilty (the police suck and lie and cheat so they did something and kraft had innocent)
3) deflect (kraft is charged with soliciting a prostitute during an investigation that has chatter it was related to trafficking. So let’s argue that there wasn’t trafficking to deflect that kraft is equally guilty whether the prostitute in question was also being trafficked or not)
4) argue the crime doesn’t deserve punishment

The bias is assuming the police are wrong before seeing any evidence to back it up.

So when the Florida department of health made a complaint to the PD reporting things such as girls sleeping in the brothel on massage tables, poor hygiene and eating facilities for them , semen in the garbage, etc what would you have wanted the PD to do?

I don’t like it either but the fight to have it released isn’t a fight to have it released it’s a fight to support the ability to obtain documents from the government.
No one fighting this (well mostly no one) wants to publish the video and are paying lawyers because the video is important. They are fighting the precedent and upholding the Florida sunshine laws that give them better access to reporting.

Ironically people who base their beliefs on a mistrust of the government are on the side of a ruling that will weaken the law that requires the government to be transparent.

No they haven’t. They have continued to maintain there is not they do not have enough proof.
What I hope is that since we know it’s a reality that Asian girls are being trafficked is that these plea bargains are a way to further an investigation in order to apprehend traffickers. Do you not wish for that?



Case is still unfolding with new information coming out. As always i will base what I think in the facts that are known and reevluate as more facts come out, not assume, guess, a d act like a dlck.

Dude I haven’t reported or claimed to know anything. I have only discussed the meaning and significance of the facts that were reported.

I’m sure the 4th amendment issues with delayed notice warrants would be hotly debated among true legal scholars.
Constitutional issues are rarely cut and dried and very few laws are found to “wipe the ass” with the constitution.
You just have to be open to listening to the opposing view and understanding it has as much validity as your view.