Kraft Orchids Case - Prosecuters Want a Tug Rule?

[JarOfMayo51]

At this point I'm more than a little curious about the reason some people are so insistent that the videos "need" to be made public.

Its entitlement.. social media has helped create some of this monster, everyone feels they have the right to know every single intimate detail about everyone else around them... If there is some video of someone doing something, they feel entitled to that video to feed their own desires for juicy gossip and a false sense of moral superiority

 

[Ring 6]

I can't disagree with your take. I suppose it is possible that if after monitoring they followed johns and documented presence, etc. that the State could still have a case.

The bomb rumor (I haven't seen any confirmation) was for Jupiter location, these warrants are specific to Martin County locations.

Two things that are now clear:

1. There is no audio. Application clearly says no audio monitoring or recording was requested;
2. Human trafficking was not used as reason for warrants but simply prostitution.

Yes and no. 1 is actually irrelevant anyway because audio isn’t relevant. But as you said regarding the bomb threat we still don’t know because it’s the wrong warrant
As to # 2 I still see a fine line. If they suspect trafficking for the purpose of prostitution then investigating prostitution would be the first step of an overall far reaching investigation. So both no the purpose of the warrant wasn’t to make trafficking arrests, but also no that doesn’t mean part of the motivation for the investigation wasn’t to begin pursuit of suspected traffickers.

I looked at all women that have been charged. They are all in their 40s and 50s except for one that is 39. This is in all 4 locations: Orlando, Indian River, Martin, and Palm Beach counties. These women knew what they were doing. Case in point, Sheriff talks about rescuing these women but, they are all being charged! (there may be 1 that isn't yet, not clear).

There have been reports that younger prostitutes were considered victims and not charged.

 

[RobertWeathers]

My biggest fear is that the team gets punished for this in terms of draft picks. If the league has proven anything, its that they'll jump at any opportunity to steal valuable picks from the Patriots to weaken them

While I would not put this past Goodys Gestapo, I can't imagine under any circumstance an owner's personal transgressions would impact football operations.

If that is the decision then they should retroactively punish the Dolts for Irsay's Oxy binge driving around Indy at 1am

 

[PatsDeb]

Ergo, you believe this is usual?

Due process has not begun. Think about that a minute

Not sure what you mean? Is it usual that in this day and age the media is seeking the release of a salacious video involving a famous person? Yes. Would it be usual for the famous defendant to try to seal the tape as part of a plea bargain (or even if he was going to trial, to argue that releasing it to the public would taint the jury pool thus it cannot be released at least until the matter is fully adjudicated)? Yes.

Due process has not begun? Sure it has. The prosecutor/police have formally charged Robert Kraft; he has pled "not guilty" and requested a jury trial; he has through his attorneys filed a motion to seal the tape, and at least the media has objected; the tape has not been released and presumably won't be unless the judge denies the Motion to Seal; Kraft may or may not have reached a plea deal with the prosecutor, but he has publicly been offered one (the same one offered to all the guys caught up in the sting); the case is proceeding normally through the courts; if a deal has not been reached Kraft's attorneys will presumably either join in the Motions filed by other defendants in the same boat as Kraft to suppress the tape, or see whether they are successful in getting it suppressed before proceeding in their own case. This is all part of due process.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

Lonely widower BK is gonna get whacked by the league for a misdemeanor HJ,
Yet,
Jimmy Haslam is teflon despite his company bilking customers out of $50 million with 17 of his employees, several directly under him, taking the rap including indictments.
Haslam takes direct responsibility for Browns failure, but none for his company's criminal practices....even after audio tapes emerged with employees discussing Haslam's awareness of their deceptive practices.

Crimes of passion.......NFL regulated
Business fraud......

I think its because Haslam doesn't have a small group of owners that are seething with jealousy and hate towards him

Kraft has big time enemies within the 32 owners that would LOVE to see him burn for this. Haslam is the owner of a team that won 1 or 2 games in a 3 year window and is virtually invisible/non-existent to the public & media

Kraft and the Patriots get insane publicity no matter what happens, Brady could J-Walk and there would be 24/7 news coverage with people crying on TV

Kraft is a schmuck for being foolish enough to get caught up in something like this, fresh off a Super Bowl victory no less

 

[maust]

Lonely widower BK is gonna get whacked by the league for a misdemeanor HJ,
Yet,
Jimmy Haslam is teflon despite his company bilking customers out of $50 million with 17 of his employees, several directly under him, taking the rap including indictments.
Haslam takes direct responsibility for Browns failure, but none for his company's criminal practices....even after audio tapes emerged with employees discussing Haslam's awareness of their deceptive practices.

Crimes of passion.......NFL regulated
Business fraud......

Dolphins owner Stephen Ross was hit with the highest civil penalty allowed by law for a tax fraud scheme that saw his accountant & atty jailed...crickets

Vikings owners the Wilfs were found guilty of what a judge called 'civil racketeering' but the league still helped them bilk MN taxpayers of half a billion and gave them a SB.
NJ Judge Wilson: "I do not believe I have seen one single financial statement that is true and accurate. There was a consistent, pervasive method of removing funds so they would not reach the partners. The bad faith and evil motive were demonstrated in the testimony of Zygi Wilf himself." We never heard a word from the league.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

It already ruined our ability to bask in the Super Bowl glow! That was my complaint when this first broke - that we can never just sit back and enjoy being Super Bowl champs! That and Bob Kraft revealed himself to be a dirty old man.

Has not affected my constant basking even for a picosecond

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

This thread brings to mind Mimi & Fifi
Maybe some few here may recon back to the early 90s on the internet. The Patriots Mailing List.
One infamous clueless member made a huge mistake inadvertently sending an email to the Pats List where he was communicating with another member about their wonderful experiences at a massage parlor detailing the lovely ladies' extra services and attributes.
Hilarity ensued.
Better yet, a month or so later he again mistakenly sent another Mimi & Fifi email to the entire list.
I miss those halcyon days.

(No you bastards, I was NOT either guy)

 

[venecol]

There have been reports that younger prostitutes were considered victims and not charged.

You must mean the 39 year old? She was also charged. All others were in their 40s and 50s.

What is it going to take for you to realize there was no human trafficking. The cops lied about this. No one has been charged with human trafficking, just racketeering related to prostitution. The last sentence below is the most impactful to me.

 

[Ring 6]

You must mean the 39 year old? She was also charged. All others were in their 40s and 50s.

I literally just said they were considered victims and not charged so you aren’t going to have their ages or really even know about them, they are victims.

What is it going to take for you to realize there was no human trafficking. The cops lied about this. No one has been charged with human trafficking, just racketeering related to prostitution. The last sentence below is the most impactful to me.

Not true there was one Rico charge.
What’s it going to take? . Umm proof or lack thereof after a case has been concluded.


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Not sure where you copied that from but it’s obvuously someone’s biased opinion. I stopped at “cops said they were doing 8 a day” when in fact that is what the complaint they received FROM THE DEPT OF HEALTH before any police investigation started.

 

[LJRomanoff]

Kraft and the Patriots get insane publicity no matter what happens, Brady could J-Walk and there would be 24/7 news coverage with people crying on TV

Is that what the cool kids call jaywalking?

 

[Ring 6]

Dolphins owner Stephen Ross was hit with the highest civil penalty allowed by law for a tax fraud scheme that saw his accountant & atty jailed...crickets

Vikings owners the Wilfs were found guilty of what a judge called 'civil racketeering' but the league still helped them bilk MN taxpayers of half a billion and gave them a SB.
NJ Judge Wilson: "I do not believe I have seen one single financial statement that is true and accurate. There was a consistent, pervasive method of removing funds so they would not reach the partners. The bad faith and evil motive were demonstrated in the testimony of Zygi Wilf himself." We never heard a word from the league.

That’s because this is the nfl. The nfl responds only when there is bad PR. Richardson was forced out because me too is a social hot button. Wilf wasn’t because tax fraud isn’t.
If there is a group that will get behind protesting the action or incident then the nfl cares.
Or if it’s the patriots.

 

[PP2]

I think its because Haslam doesn't have a small group of owners that are seething with jealousy and hate towards him

Kraft has big time enemies within the 32 owners that would LOVE to see him burn for this. Haslam is the owner of a team that won 1 or 2 games in a 3 year window and is virtually invisible/non-existent to the public & media

Kraft and the Patriots get insane publicity no matter what happens, Brady could J-Walk and there would be 24/7 news coverage with people crying on TV

Kraft is a schmuck for being foolish enough to get caught up in something like this, fresh off a Super Bowl victory no less

I think this pretty much nails it, although I don't think Kraft has any big time enemies- he's not the kind of person who makes enemies, BUT he is the target of a great deal of resentment and jealousy, as far as his history of sustained success.

Don't forget that all the other owners are also billionaires- they've done their fair amount of cheating, and cutting corners to get to where they are. You don't become a self-made billionaire any other way. It's too astronomically difficult.

 

[maust]

That’s because this is the nfl. The nfl responds only when there is bad PR. Richardson was forced out because me too is a social hot button. Wilf wasn’t because tax fraud isn’t.
If there is a group that will get behind protesting the action or incident then the nfl cares.
Or if it’s the patriots.

In the interest of keeping NFL miscreants straight it was Ross who commited large scale tax fraud. Wilf defrauded and in some instances even terrorized business partners. Richardson chose his own path rather than wait for any backlash/punishment possibly out of concern he'd get the Donald Sterling treatment. You did get the gist of what I meant though, had the national press decided to go after the Wilfs in a big way (their actions were pretty heinous) would the league have backed off helping out with their glass house? Maybe even worse? If Ross had been the owner of the Pats rather than the dollyfins what would the press have looked like?

 

[JarOfMayo51]

I think this pretty much nails it, although I don't think Kraft has any big time enemies- he's not the kind of person who makes enemies, BUT he is the target of a great deal of resentment and jealousy, as far as his history of sustained success.

Don't forget that all the other owners are also billionaires- they've done their fair amount of cheating, and cutting corners to get to where they are. You don't become a self-made billionaire any other way. It's too astronomically difficult.

Yea i would certainly agree with that, you have to have a certain degree of ruthlessness to become a billionaire

"Snappin necks and cashin checks"

 

[venecol]

Here is the motion by PRESS opposing Defendants motion to preserve evidence. It looks pretty strong. Unless the Defense can somehow get the videos deemed illegal I don't see (from a layman) how media doesn't get a hold of videos.

 

[PP2]

It already ruined our ability to bask in the Super Bowl glow! That was my complaint when this first broke - that we can never just sit back and enjoy being Super Bowl champs! That and Bob Kraft revealed himself to be a dirty old man.

I don't think it should ruin your experience- it didn't ruin mine. He didn't win the superbowl anyway. The players and coaches did.

I understand what you mean- he gets put through the ringer and suffers this media circus, but if it wasn't going to be that, it was going to inevitably be something, what with the sheer hatred Patriot Nation is experiencing right now (I revel in it).

The fact that it ended up being over a $100 tug job at a run-down spa is wholly his own fault. I mean, if he was going to go so low, he could just have had them come up to his hotel room or something.

 

[BTTA]

Well clearly there is both a legal and standard difference between monitoring and recording. These two are not the same type of activity.

This isn't an issue of everyday-person language. It is an issue of protocol and precedent within law enforcement and the courts. What we think it should or shouldn't mean couldn't possibly be any less relevant. There is decades of history of other cases that have already defined all this.

If the pre-formed definition is that the police will use cameras that transmit a signal, which is staffed and watched 24/7 by trained professionals who will then be called upon to testify on what they saw, then that's one thing. The cameras are essentially a virtual stake-out.

If instead the definition is that the camera will send a signal to a recording device (on site or off site), and at some interval a trained professional will scan through the recordings looking for evidence of a crime, then that's another thing.

And then there's the issue of whether the courts consider this distinction important enough to interrupt a legitimate crime scene investigation with a constitutional privacy and poisoned fruit issue. We don't know that either.

 

[BTTA]

You must mean the 39 year old? She was also charged. All others were in their 40s and 50s.

What is it going to take for you to realize there was no human trafficking. The cops lied about this. No one has been charged with human trafficking, just racketeering related to prostitution. The last sentence below is the most impactful to me.

Having read some, but not all, of the prior posts on all this (I AM trying to have a workday), the most likely explanation seems to be that the cops know that trafficking underlies a good deal of the prostitution in these parlors. (I've no reason to doubt that, having heard about it many times in other places and cases. Heck, there was a bust for sex trafficking in a very nice neighborhood a half mile from my house just last year - just a regular looking 5 bedroom house.)

If that's the case, then it follows that one of the reasons the cops are aggressive about prosecuting prostitution is because of this connection. If so, then the fact that they did a bust (using prostitution as the legitimate premise) and didn't come up with trafficking evidence doesn't mean there's no trafficking going on. It just means they didn't get any evidence of it this time around. For the cops to then speak of it as a key motivator to their activity is accurate, not a lie.

And it is then reasonable that they would associate Kraft and his kind as the economic engine of not just the prostitution, but of the trafficking.as well. Just like when I go to the store and buy a product, I'm the economic engine of whatever happened upstream to create that product. If I know the product is created through an illegal activity, I've got some culpability for that. And if I'm an educated person, with the privilege of some free time in my life (as evidenced in this very moment), then I've got some responsibility as a citizen to learn about that and shape my behavior for the good of the community.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

I really don't care what any attorney (especially a defense attorney for a rich shmuck) says publicly. It means nothing legally. Much of it is all about PR and framing. What matters is the specific text in whatever motions the attorney files with the court. Then we'll know what the attorney really believes vs. what things he's trying to get the public to think.