Kraft Orchids Case - Prosecuters Want a Tug Rule?

[Biffins]

But this discussion isn’t about assessing the moral value of the way they chose to investigate and prosecute the issue.

I didn't see a set of rules what stating what this discussion is about.

I am discussing the moral value of the investigation. You don't need to reply if you don't want to view things from that perspective or partake in that discussion. I am sure this angle is relevant to the legal appeal and hence relevant to this thread.

 

[Ring 6]

Protection versus Privacy. Now we understand what the raw crux of this debate is. That’s fine. Cards are on the table. Yes, the pendulum swings towards one direction which is necessarily away from the other. As you say “Lower the bar”, I may in return offer that “protection” seems quite synonymous with unchecked power in many cases.

No.
Protection of us and our property is inverse to restrictions on investigative laws.
Unchecked would be absolute so my counter to your comment would be privacy is symonmous with eliminating law enforcement.
The answer is neither extreme (I don’t think anyone would choose either extreme) but somehwre along the continuum.

I, for example, have no issue with cameras placed in bathrooms if a building where children are being molested in bathrooms.
I find a police officer being able to view people in private is a much lesssr consequence than a child being molested (or the milestor not being caught and molesting again).
I don’t agree with but I understand that some people would feel the opposite. You will never convince me that the inconvenience outweighs the benefit of catching the milestor but it’s not my place to make that decision for you and I am aware enough to recognize everyone sees it through their own eyes.

At the risk of rambling here is a good example. Gun control.
I have largely been Switzerland on this issue. I see both sides and don’t feel strongly enough about either to forcefully take a stand.

Then school shootings started. Then I learned that since sandy hook we have had a school shooting per week. My opinion became I still see both sides, but why the fck do we really need guns if kids are dying left and right.


Then I studied and considered the issue more. I looked at what is happening in Washington. I started hearing support of socialism. I see a fractured government that doesn’t seem too unbelievably far away from one side trying to organize a coup against the other.
I realize that the true purpose of the second amendment was likely to give citizens a means to defend themselves against a tyrannical government which was a legitimate concern in the 1700s that we have come to consider impossible. So then I think it is truly authoritarian to take away guns. (Which also extends it to limiting types of guns as well)

At different points of my enlightenment I could have been ambivalent or supported either side.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Kraft does have a young, trophy wife, in the parlance of our time.

I don't think he married her. Although she does have a great rug.

 

[MassPats38]

From what I recall people saying (much ) earlier on this thread, Kraft -- not being the driver -- couldn't be forced to hand over his ID in a traffic stop. However, whether through ignorance, not caring, or whatever, he made the decision to hand it over even though he didn't have to. So assuming the traffic stop is held to be legal, that identification of him will be legal, too.

True. That was likely the "stop and ID" law that were found to violate due process (overrode reasonable suspicion requirements).

If a search is by consent (voluntarily given), then that works always. Even if he didn't consent, who he is (as opposed to the physical identification card if in evidence as that would be a search of his person and thus an illegal fruit of that search) wouldn't be suppressed. If the sequence was the cops watched him in action on video and then stopped the vehicle, then there likely would be reasonable suspicion (or better yet probable cause to arrest).

Dream team or not, that is a fact that will likely not be in dispute here unless they can find some genuine outrageous conduct to hitch their wagon to in argument (usually satisfied by brutal beatings or the like - not a low bar). Kraft's presence in Jupiter will not likely disappear by legal magic.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

No.
Protection of us and our property is inverse to restrictions on investigative laws.
Unchecked would be absolute so my counter to your comment would be privacy is symonmous with eliminating law enforcement.
The answer is neither extreme (I don’t think anyone would choose either extreme) but somehwre along the continuum.

I, for example, have no issue with cameras placed in bathrooms if a building where children are being molested in bathrooms.
I find a police officer being able to view people in private is a much lesssr consequence than a child being molested (or the milestor not being caught and molesting again).
I don’t agree with but I understand that some people would feel the opposite. You will never convince me that the inconvenience outweighs the benefit of catching the milestor but it’s not my place to make that decision for you and I am aware enough to recognize everyone sees it through their own eyes.

At the risk of rambling here is a good example. Gun control.
I have largely been Switzerland on this issue. I see both sides and don’t feel strongly enough about either to forcefully take a stand.

Then school shootings started. Then I learned that since sandy hook we have had a school shooting per week. My opinion became I still see both sides, but why the fck do we really need guns if kids are dying left and right.


Then I studied and considered the issue more. I looked at what is happening in Washington. I started hearing support of socialism. I see a fractured government that doesn’t seem too unbelievably far away from one side trying to organize a coup against the other.
I realize that the true purpose of the second amendment was likely to give citizens a means to defend themselves against a tyrannical government which was a legitimate concern in the 1700s that we have come to consider impossible. So then I think it is truly authoritarian to take away guns. (Which also extends it to limiting types of guns as well)

At different points of my enlightenment I could have been ambivalent or supported either side.

Good post, Andy.

 

[Ring 6]

The investigation I'm sure was begun without Kraft in mind. That doesn't mean once they got wind he was a customer there that cameras weren't decided on. Ever hear of a tip? Jesus you believe everything has to be pure and righteous with every part of the investigation and dismiss every notion that there could ever be any funny business. How is that objective?.......just saying you are doesn't mean anything. Christ you're like Felgar and Maz that say they are objective....start off by saying Brady is the greatest then spend the next 4 hours telling us everything hes doing wrong.

I don’t believe that there was a 6 month investigation based upon trafficking that suddenly turned into hurry up and lie to get a warrant so we can arrest a billionaire on a misdemeanor and have his expensive lawyers come after us and try to get us fired.
I mean what is the motivation?

I have not at all dismissed any notion that something untoward happened. I have consistently said there is nothing available to us that indicates it has. It’s possible but it’s not likely. So until there is some kind of indication that something happened I’m not going to believe a conspiracy theory that it did.
That is as objective as it gets.
I believe what I see. Show me more and I will change my opinion if it warrants it.
How can you disagree with that?

Loomat wgat you are saying here. Do you honestly think it’s objective to make up
someone for no reason we can identify with no evidence it happened that someone set kraft up?
I mean by response to you is all if the reasons it’s unlikeky.
It’s not impossible just extremely unlikeky.
If it turns out to have happened then my objectivity allows that to change my view but I can’t make something up with no real evidence and argue it and call myself objective

Objective means open to all information without bias not gullible and reliant upon guesses.

 

[Ring 6]

I didn't see a set of rules what stating what this discussion is about.

Well you were referring to what I posted so I explained the reason I posted it. Sorry if that came out as arrogant or controlling, didnt mean it that way.

I am discussing the moral value of the investigation. You don't need to reply if you don't want to view things from that perspective or partake in that discussion. I am sure this angle is relevant to the legal appeal and hence relevant to this thread.

I’ll pass because I think we have to make too many factual assumptions to discuss the morality issues and it seeens silly to discuss someone’s morality based upon guessing at their actions.

 

[1960Pats]

The two items aren't mutually exclusive. Kraft could very well have committed a crime, while the police overstepped their bounds, thus compromising the legality of their case against Kraft.

That Kraft may have committed a crime doesn't make Kraft wrong for exercising his legal rights. We would all (hopefully) do the same if it we were in his shoes. These are rights afforded to all of us under the Constitution. There are good reasons for this.

I don't blame Kraft for fighting. He'd be a fool not to fight. I just wish he had the same attitude toward Belichick and Brady when they were wrongfully accused.

I'm a strong supporter of law enforcement, but after watching a video many years ago I taught my kids and grand daughter never to talk to the police, even if you're innocent. In case anyone hasn't seen it I'll put the link here. It's very interesting and an eye opener.

 

[PatsWSB47]

I don’t believe that there was a 6 month investigation based upon trafficking that suddenly turned into hurry up and lie to get a warrant so we can arrest a billionaire on a misdemeanor and have his expensive lawyers come after us and try to get us fired.
I mean what is the motivation?

I have not at all dismissed any notion that something untoward happened. I have consistently said there is nothing available to us that indicates it has. It’s possible but it’s not likely. So until there is some kind of indication that something happened I’m not going to believe a conspiracy theory that it did.
That is as objective as it gets.
I believe what I see. Show me more and I will change my opinion if it warrants it.
How can you disagree with that?

Loomat wgat you are saying here. Do you honestly think it’s objective to make up
someone for no reason we can identify with no evidence it happened that someone set kraft up?
I mean by response to you is all if the reasons it’s unlikeky.
It’s not impossible just extremely unlikeky.
If it turns out to have happened then my objectivity allows that to change my view but I can’t make something up with no real evidence and argue it and call myself objective

Objective means open to all information without bias not gullible and reliant upon guesses.

Your objective claim is ringing hollow. Sorry

 

[RobertWeathers]

 

[Ring 6]

Your objective claim is ringing hollow. Sorry

Then you don’t understand what objective is. Sorry.

 

[maust]

I don't blame Kraft for fighting. He'd be a fool not to fight. I just wish he had the same attitude toward Belichick and Brady when they were wrongfully accused.

I'm a strong supporter of law enforcement, but after watching a video many years ago I taught my kids and grand daughter never to talk to the police, even if you're innocent. In case anyone hasn't seen it I'll put the link here. It's very interesting and an eye opener.

“Any lawyer worth his salt will tell [a] suspect in no uncertain terms to make no statement to police under any circumstances.” Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson, a former Attorney General of the United States and the Chief Prosecutor at Nuremburg.

 

[Bledsoehasaring]

Then you don’t understand what objective is. Sorry.

You are working this thread like your life is at stake. It’s a misdemeanor from two women that were liscensed and have lived here for over 10 years. There is no sex trafficking here.. just a hand job and maybe a blow job. I appreciate the fact that you are the social justice warrior of this board, but you are needed elsewhere. This will play out.. kraft will pay the price or he won’t. I am not sure why you have such boundless energy talking about handjobs. Go fight the fight in Vegas where it is legal. Or in places where underage kids are caught up in this filth. This * parlor in Florida is not worthy of a zealot such as yourself. Your self assured preaching is better served in a million other places. Very few people have the gift of always believing their opinion is always the right one. You have that gift... use it wisely in places that matter.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

221 pages of discussing Bob Kraft's pecker ...
Malcolm Butler is nervous this thread will surpass his mega thread for most replies all time.

Don't bring the publisher of the National Enquirer into it, not unless you want to re-open the political forum...

 

[Kdo5]

Don't bring the publisher of the National Enquirer into it, not unless you want to re-open the political forum...

I miss PoFo.

 

[Joker]

This is Joe Kerr reporting from the great beyond...anyway, I had few beers in Newport this afternoon with some buddies and things got around to betting. Well, not being a shy wallflower type I bragged "what's the odds I can beat this oncoming tractor trailer across the street?". All my buds screamed don't but a bet's a bet. So, I dash right out in front of the semi and smashhhh...I get run over. As my soul leaves this mortal coil for the last time I think out loud BAD BET! ANDY WAS RIGHT...

so take it from me, Joe "Inferno Boy" Kerr...never argue with Andy. If I hadn't I'd still be here today waiting for the sealed warrants to be revealed.

 

[Tunescribe]

This is Joe Kerr reporting from the great beyond...anyway, I had few beers in Newport this afternoon with some buddies and things got around to betting. Well, not being a shy wallflower type I bragged "what's the odds I can beat this oncoming tractor trailer across the street?". All my buds screamed don't but a bet's a bet. So, I dash right out in front of the semi and smashhhh...I get run over.

That trafficking will get you every time. Something must be done about it.

 

[Joker]

I'm gonna move to Kathmandu!

 

[Tunescribe]

I'm gonna move to Kathmandu!

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

View attachment 22904

A lot of ins and outs, I hear.