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Kraft Orchids Case - Prosecuters Want a Tug Rule?


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Neither you nor I care who is right. No one comes to this board to win or lose

That’s what children do, not adults
Then why would you make a post telling me you hope I will admit I am wrong when it’s proven?
Is that not what children do?

(Especially when you want me to admit I’m wrong when I said I don’t know)
 
I hope the video is released.
 
A 56 year old and a 48 year old are NOT "girls"...but then YOU knew that and deliberately LIED to keep your "winning" streak alive.Congratulations...now show all of us the "human trafficking" warrants.
I’m sorry were are they boys? Transgenders?

There were many more prostitutes in the brothel than the 56 year old and the 48 year old.

Let’s try this.
Which of these statements do you disagree with?
1) the police obtained a warrant to investigate the spa on the suspicion of human trafficking for prostitution purposes
2) what has been reported states that there were females who slept on the massage tables, didn’t leave the facility and were transported to different facilities.
3) Robert kraft is on tape paying for sex at the establishment.

Those are the facts I am claiming. Please explain which ones you dispute.
 
If the video was legally obtained it will be released as public record.
I can't wait to watch this! I hope all the haters and opposing fans rubs it in whenever they can at bendover Bob. Nothing would be more pleasing!
 
That's what I'm saying. People aren't even giving him a chance.
He should be given a chance. It’s a minor crime. People screw up all the time. Let him deal with it and move on.
 
he lied about it at first, and is now admitting it. agree this should have been his statement 3 weeks ago...
Your reading comprehension is completely opposite from mine. What gives?

He didn't deny having sex at first, his spokesman simply denied he committed an illegal act, which he can claim is true if the sex was consensual.

He isn't admitting to anything by stating "I'm truly sorry" devoid of what it is he is sorry about.

He has very talented writers coming up with these statements. In essence they don't say very much, which is just short of STFU.
 
He should be given a chance. It’s a minor crime. People screw up all the time. Let him deal with it and move on.
I disagree. He’s pretended to be the moral compass of the team and the League all the while throwing the very people who have made him (BB & TB) under the bus.

He can burn and I wish him the maximum embarrassment. You feel differently. That is fine.
 
got up this morning and told my cat " I bet the sun will come up!" 10 minutes later, there it was ,shining brightly...suddenly from the bushes I heard "BAD GUESS!!"...I called out "Andy ,is that you?" but no answer. So anyway, I went back to bed and fell asleep. Had this dream that the warrants in the Kraft case were for "human trafficking!". Upon waking up and running to the computer I found the warrants are still sealed and NO ONE knows the specifics yet. I sighed a breath of relief....that was close, I thought.
Your guess was a good one because the odds were very strong. If you guess your house was going to be picked up and dropped in oz that would be a bad guess. If in fact that happened it would also have been a lucky one.

It has been widely reported that the warrants were obtained for human trafficking.
The defense lawyers (who have seen them) are stating they should be invalid because there was no human trafficking happening.
Please explain why the attorney who read the warrants would publicly state the evidence obtained from the warrant should be thrown out because there was no trafficking if the warrant he looked at wasn’t for trafficking.

You are way smarter than to play this dumb.
 
I disagree. He’s pretended to be the moral compass of the team and the League all the while throwing the very people who have made him (BB & TB) under the bus.

He can burn and I wish him the maximum embarrassment. You feel differently. That is fine.
Eh. I see no value in wishing I’ll on him.
 
Well, now that Kraft has apologized that should make any legal proceedings a moot point with respect to the NFL. Goodell can now hang Kraft on his own words.
I would not be surprised if the apology was an edict from goodell.
 
Your reading comprehension is completely opposite from mine. What gives?

He didn't deny having sex at first, his spokesman simply denied he committed an illegal act, which he can claim is true if the sex was consensual.

He isn't admitting to anything by stating "I'm truly sorry" devoid of what it is he is sorry about.

He has very talented writers coming up with these statements. In essence they don't say very much, which is just short of STFU.

Reread what he wrote.

“I am truly sorry. I know I have hurt and disappointed my family, my close friends, my co-workers, our fan and many others who rightfully hold me to a higher standard.”

What standard do you think he’s talking about? If he didn’t do anything, no need to apologize for anything. He ain’t apologizing for the massage you know...
 
Interesting stuff. Thanks.

Some questions for you.

You say victims will testify but I've read numerous times that they often don't for fear of repercussions to them or their families living back home in Asia. So how often have you seen the women working in brothels testify?

Ex-FBI Agent: Robert Kraft Case in Florida Reminds Me of Our Ann Arbor Investigation



Do you see any evidence of the LE overstepping their bounds? To me it seems they were justified in their suspicions of a human trafficking case and therefore justified getting a warrant for human trafficking. Is installing cameras under those grounds an overreach?

Based on your post it does seem like the Palm Beach LE went about it the wrong way if they were trying to crack down on a human trafficking ring but that doesn't mean they went about it illegally imo.

Thanks again.

Law enforcement can offer broader grants of protection that extend to families. Those discussions touch on the less wholesome aspects of law and order - what do we get for our money? If you are important enough to the case, then you can get a bunch. If you are less important, then it may only be you protected. Victims, with or without attorneys, have to weigh risks against often less than concrete assurances before cooperating. It usually comes down to whether you trust a particular prosecutor to do what is necessary. Victims don't always have attorneys, so that can be a scary process.

I have read enough police affidavits to not label those gospel. Affidavit stories may change substantially after cross-examination in preliminary hearings, and the described contents of videos (which are not shown early on) may be way off the mark. Why? Because those documents are used to sell judges on an arrest or search warrant. They are not for juries. They may be used in cross-examination to attack credibility.

My concerns, in the few stories I have read about this topic:

1. Presence of video (if it was suspected human trafficking as suggested, then nobody would video the victims being victimized - What exactly would that video be expected produce as evidence in regard to victim status or knowledge of that status? If the belief was underage victims might be involved, then the cops would be producing child pornography. Not happening. They seize that stuff. They don't make it.). If this was just a local brothel sting, then it makes a little more sense. That video would generally be sound as evidence against anyone without a property right to the establishment. ;
2. Vehicle stop (reasonable suspicion works for a stop, but I'm not sure on how that works for a passenger John who has allegedly already committed the offense - a Texas law requiring individuals to pony up identification on request was shot down - and if there was video of this well known public figure, why the need to identify through a vehicle stop? In the mix, likely none of that matters as you can't suppress the body - the identity of the person being investigated. In the most egregious violations, that might get a case dismissed but generally nothing happens. More just weird to me.)
3. Timing. This major human trafficking investigation (usually requiring many months or even years) concluded within 30 days of Kraft appearing as a John? Do we label this conclusion with a misdemeanor charge a coincidence? Presumably, the moment an investigation goes public the big fish are no longer a target. That makes this sound less a concern of the potential victims of human trafficking, and more a PR opportunity that has been grossly mischaracterized in order to paint the individual as more nefarious.

"Perp walks" are standard. The same applies to press releases. I don't like them, but they occasionally serve the end of assuring the public that the police are doing their job in arresting the bad people. Do I believe law enforcement agents were conducting a human trafficking investigation here? Highly unlikely. Do I believe they used that characterization when presented with a celebrity violation of traditionally lesser variety in order to sound more grandiose? Yes. Is Kraft liked in Florida? No. Does adding that element create better national media interest? Yes. If this were a jury matter, then could you find an untainted jury in all of Florida after this media interest? No. Is that a problem? Yes, if your true concern is the validity of our system of justice and not your 15 minutes of fame in shaming an unpopular character in your voting district. But if you live in a place where you and others need the vote to keep your job, then you might be tempted to dance for the media.

Personally, barring major law enforcement misconduct tantamount to framing Kraft, I believe Kraft did it. I won't feel sorry for him however this turns out. The reality is prostitution is everywhere and solicitation charges are common (and relatively minor) in the justice system. He should enjoy the Eugene Robinson and Warren Sapp experience, as that is what he likely did. Not a fan of the law enforcement visual here, but it doesn't rise to the "set up an innocent guy" level of concern for me.
 
Or maybe, he is sincerely sorry for acting in a way that brought shame to everyone and everything in his life.
I hope that you are right.
Personally I thought it was creepy to bring up his dead wife in his apology for getting a bj from a hooker.
 
2. Vehicle stop (reasonable suspicion works for a stop, but I'm not sure on how that works for a passenger John who has allegedly already committed the offense - a Texas law requiring individuals to pony up identification on request was shot down - and if there was video of this well known public figure, why the need to identify through a vehicle stop? In the mix, likely none of that matters as you can't suppress the body - the identity of the person being investigated. In the most egregious violations, that might get a case dismissed but generally nothing happens. More just weird to me.)

From what I recall people saying (much :)) earlier on this thread, Kraft -- not being the driver -- couldn't be forced to hand over his ID in a traffic stop. However, whether through ignorance, not caring, or whatever, he made the decision to hand it over even though he didn't have to. So assuming the traffic stop is held to be legal, that identification of him will be legal, too.
 
I don't want to see Kraft nailed to a cross.
He made a mistake - he's human - it happens.
My opinion is and has been he's huge in the philanthropy arena.
I would pursue all legal angles here but accept the consequences also - quickly if possible.

So he needs to do the right thing here and take his lumps.
 
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This isn't about just Kraft, there are 24 other men being charged, 15 of them had their 12 law firms file a joint motion to preserve the videos (not to release them). If this in fact was a human trafficking investigation they went about it the wrong way or simply just used it as an excuse to get the warrants to install the cameras.

Here is an example of a successful human trafficking FBI investigation of a Korean massage parlor ring in Michigan. They got the operators of the ring convicted and the operation shut down. No prostitution charges for the girls or the johns were filed. No video cameras were used, they went after the human trafficking. Instead here it is clear they were after the prostitution to embarrass the johns and used human trafficking as an excuse to sensationalize the arrests.

Ex-FBI Agent: Robert Kraft Case in Florida Reminds Me of Our Ann Arbor Investigation
If the investigation was in order to arrest Johns and they went to a judge and lied, and made up probable cause of trafficking in order to sneak in and film prostitution in order to arrest Johns then all of the evidence is inadmissable and all 25 should walk.
The chance of that being the case is virtually zero, and we have absolutely no information from any source that backs it up.
 
A 56 year old and a 48 year old are NOT "girls"...but then YOU knew that and deliberately LIED to keep your "winning" streak alive.Congratulations...now show all of us the "human trafficking" warrants.

Yeah, another stipulated FACT of the case that reeks of a fake investigation that should have ended after an hour.
 
Reread what he wrote.

“I am truly sorry. I know I have hurt and disappointed my family, my close friends, my co-workers, our fan and many others who rightfully hold me to a higher standard.”

What standard do you think he’s talking about? If he didn’t do anything, no need to apologize for anything. He ain’t apologizing for the massage you know...
I honestly don't know what he is talking about because he doesn't say anything.

I can easily interpret what he said as: he is sorry that in the process of having consensual sex he got caught in this ridicuoulus illegal operation and thus embarrassed himself and everyone he loves and this is not in keeping with his sense of a higher standard.

Now if he would have said: I'm truly sorry for soliciting a prostitute for sex but I'm lonely or whatever, then it would be clear he was admitting to something.
 
But that link you posted regarding the Ann Arbor bust indicates that the Palm Beach LE department were right to be suspicious of a human trafficking issue and hence the warrant. Or not?
They are pretty identical with the exception of fla chose to arrest the Johns and Ann Arbor chose not to
 
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