Kraft Orchids Case - Prosecuters Want a Tug Rule?

[Ring 6]

Dude. You're wrong. Yes a popular use of them was for terrorist attacks and the police didn't break a law, just convention, when they used them in this instance.

I am not wrong when I dispute they are “warrants for terrorism”.

But the law takes the principle, and not just the rule, under consideration. This is a provision of the Patriot Act.

Using cameras to surveil a crime is not exclusive to the patriot act.

This law was designed and made to be used for anti-terrorist activities. The law doesn't specifically state that this provision cannot be used for other crimes but that's been the understanding and the police broke convention by abusing this.

They did not abuse it. The used this method and got a warrant authorizing it.

Now on appeal a court can very well determine the police were going against the intent of the Patriot Act and hence abused the law. Yes it means the police aren't going to jail, since they were technically in their right, but the case could very well get thrown out and the law altered to prevent this abuse in the future.

Again while used under the patriot act, the patriot act is not the exclusive means to use cameras to surveil a crime.

Intent very much matters.

Intent was to respond to a complaint from the department of health that human trafficking evidently was happening.

 

[Biffins]

Let’s add some facts to this shot from the hip thread.

SNYDER: Well, that's one of the reasons why this sex trafficking continues at such a pace. Invariably, our methodology has been up until we did this here - send a couple of undercover detectives in. They'll be solicited for sex, will arrest the workers and shut the place down. And the problem goes away, but not really goes away.

And so when this came in, I made the decision that we would treat this differently and that we would go after the traffickers and the men, the end users. And that's why we were so successful, and we have over 300 arrest warrants.

KELLY: What happens to the women now, do you know?

SNYDER: Well, as you and I speak, one of the women that's here, we're treating her as a victim. She's in protective custody. She said that she was offered a job making a lot of money in America in a nail salon. And before she knew it, she came here and found herself in the sex trafficking industry in massage parlors.

We have NGOs helping us along with Mandarin-speaking interpreters, and we're doing our very best to try to get these women some kind of help. You alluded to it earlier, and it's true, they tend not to want to cooperate because of the coercion point. And oftentimes, and this woman said it, she feels that her family in China is at risk if she cooperates with law enforcement.

KELLY: Is that what you mean when you say the coercion point?

SNYDER: Yeah. You know, to try to understand it, what is it that causes a woman to stay in these deplorable conditions where they're having sex with eight to 15 men a day and with absolutely no protection? The doors are not locked. You know, there's no one guarding them at night. We've had cases where they come over with their children and the children are being educated, but the cost is the mother is taken into trafficking.




Nah, totally fabricated, nothing going in here

Again, this just proves that it was wrong of them to film for 5 days watching these women get raped again and again based on their assumptions and the information they had. Infact this interview makes it explicit that they are going after the Johns to send a message. I find it morally reprehensible.

Taking this argument to absurdum, imagine if the police knew a bomb will go off in a train station at a certain time, but not sure by who, and they let it happen and let innocent people die, just to catch who would do it so they can arrest him and send a message.

In the massage parlour case, they believed these women were being sex trafficked and infact were sex slaves. He said he wanted to go after the "end users", so they setup the cameras to observe and record these women getting raped over and over just to catch the perpetrator. That's absolutely ridiculous and I am sorry you don't see it that way. They should have stopped the recording after the first confirmation and shut the place down. Clearly this is about going after the Johns, or lonely old farts.

 

[Ring 6]

If they were tipped off that Kraft got "massages" there and that he was going to be in town. Nabbing a big name like that would be the collar of a lifetime for these guys. Andy you've dug in way to deep to be objective.

No I have no horse in this race. My position is being objective. I’m the guy arguing that we can’t draw a conclusion without facts.

But let’s run with your thought.
The Florida department is health reported the spa in July of 2018 as a place where prostitution was occurring and the workers appeared to for the profile of trafficked people.
The 8 month investigation culminated in a few days of taped surveillance in January 2019 where bob kraft visited twice.

Are you honestly telling me the department of health reported potential human trafficking in order to set up bob kraft for a misdemeanor charge the following January and the police put forth 6 months of investigation into setting up bob kraft for a misdemeanor?
Further in order to set up a billionaire who would no doubt hire the best lawyers available to fight the charges, the decided to lie to a judge in order to get a warrant for human trafficking all the while having the prescience to know that when they set up the cameras in a town kraft doesn’t primarily live in the week his team is in the afccg in kc that in those few days he would show.
Come on

 

[maust]

Nihilists are problematic for Kraft as they would threaten to cut off his Johnson...

...or not.
Not that it would really matter

 

[PatsWSB47]

Again, this just proves that it was wrong of them to film for 5 days watching these women get raped again and again based on their assumptions and the information they had. Infact this interview makes it explicit that they are going after the Johns to send a message. I find it morally reprehensible.

Taking this argument to absurdum, imagine if the police knew a bomb will go off in a train station at a certain time, but not sure by who, and they let it happen and let innocent people die, just to catch who would do it so they can arrest him and send a message.

In the massage parlour case, they believed these women were being sex trafficked and infact were sex slaves. He said he wanted to go after the "end users", so they setup the cameras to observe and record these women getting raped over and over just to catch the perpetrator. That's absolutely ridiculous and I am sorry you don't see it that way. They should have stopped the recording after the first confirmation and shut the place down. Clearly this is about going after the Johns, or lonely old farts.

And now these concerned law enforcement guys want to make these sex tapes public. It's not just the Johns be recorded. I guess they not concerned that the sex workers are going to have to be shamed right along with the Johns.

 

[ralmat55]

I hope that you are right.
Personally I thought it was creepy to bring up his dead wife in his apology for getting a bj from a hooker.

I could not agree more. Hiding behind the skirt of his late wife was not a good look. He wanted to express that he feels women are not to be exploited, I guess, but could have found a better way to do it.

 

[fnordcircle]

Nihilists are problematic for Kraft as they would threaten to cut off his Johnson.

Kraft does have a young, trophy wife, in the parlance of our time.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

It’s interesting that this thread has now turned largely against the PD, even though no one is defending or denying Kraft’s guilt. And as time goes on, I think even more people will start to come around the realization that the real issue is police surveillance and privacy rights. You don’t have to be on the right or left politically here, a Pats fan or a Pats hater. Kraft isn’t even the real subject of the discussion. This is about an increasingly essential topic regarding surveillance and authority versus privacy. I began to take a close watch on this after watching a documentary about Edward Snowden (I has initially just thought he was a traitor until I realized what he actually uncovered.). I’m glad to see so many people can look past the Robert Kraft piece here and focus on the more important issue.

 

[Ring 6]

Again, this just proves that it was wrong of them to film for 5 days watching these women get raped again and again based on their assumptions and the information they had. Infact this interview makes it explicit that they are going after the Johns to send a message. I find it morally reprehensible.[/quoted]
I’m not sure where 5 days came from but I’m pretty sure that information hasn’t been released.
If I knew the facts of how long the cameras ran, what happened and how and why the decisions were made that sufficient evidence was obtained then I could comment on whether the time frame was wrong or not.

Taking this argument to absurdum, imagine if the police knew a bomb will go off in a train station at a certain time, but not sure by who, and they let it happen and let innocent people die, just to catch who would do it so they can arrest him and send a message.

Yes that is absurd and a very incongruous analogy.

In the massage parlour case, they believed these women were being sex trafficked and infact were sex slaves.

No. They SUSPECTED and were investigating.


[wuote]He said he wanted to go after the "end users", so they setup the cameras to observe and record these women getting raped over and over just to catch the perpetrator. That's absolutely ridiculous and I am sorry you don't see it that way. They should have stopped the recording after the first confirmation and shut the place down. Clearly this is about going after the Johns, or lonely old farts.

He was clear in his comments that this method was used to take out the end users and get to the traffickers to put a stop to it rather than the failed methods of the past.
I understand you like to sensationalize by implying the facilitated rape, but the prior methods used did nothing to stop it from happening. I can see both sides of that.

But this discussion isn’t about assessing the moral value of the way they chose to investigate and prosecute the issue.
It’s about claims that they lied to get a warrant, that there was no trafficking going on, that they watched and waited for 3o days, that it was bob kraft being set up and all of the other disinformation and misinformation being spewed in this thread.
That is why I inserted facts.

My points are and have been
1) I have no doubt kraft committed the crime
2) I have no doubt the suspicion of trafficking was justified.
3) justification of probably cause makes the search legal regardless of whether the crime can be proven
4) other crimes committed discovered under a legal and valid search are fair game and if the search was legal the evidence of the side crime is admissible

 

[ralmat55]

Bob alludes to Myra in his public apology. I'm sure he's feeling deeply guilty and shamed.

I understand why he did and believe he does feel guilty and ashamed, but I thought hiding behind his late wife was a bit unseemly.

 

[Ring 6]

It’s interesting that this thread has now turned largely against the PD, even though no one is defending or denying Kraft’s guilt. And as time goes on, I think even more people will start to come around the realization that the real issue is police surveillance and privacy rights. You don’t have to be on the right or left politically here, a Pats fan or a Pats hater. Kraft isn’t even the real subject of the discussion. This is about an increasingly essential topic regarding surveillance and authority versus privacy. I began to take a close watch on this after watching a documentary about Edward Snowden (I has initially just thought he was a traitor until I realized what he actually uncovered.). I’m glad to see so many people can look past the Robert Kraft piece here and focus on the more important issue.

The thread hasn’t turned

Be careful what you ask for.

Remember there are laws that allow law enforcement to protect us and out property and rules that place limits upon how they do it.
When you say you want to raise the bar of what LE can do to investigate, prevent and solve crimes against us and our property you are also saying you want to lower the bar of how well we are protected.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

He was clear in his comments that this method was used to take out the end users and get to the traffickers to put a stop to it rather than the failed methods of the past.
I understand you like to sensationalize by implying the facilitated rape, but the prior methods used did nothing to stop it from happening. I can see both sides of that.

But this discussion isn’t about assessing the moral value of the way they chose to investigate and prosecute the issue.
It’s about claims that they lied to get a warrant, that there was no trafficking going on, that they watched and waited for 3o days, that it was bob kraft being set up and all of the other disinformation and misinformation being spewed in this thread.
That is why I inserted facts.

My points are and have been
1) I have no doubt kraft committed the crime
2) I have no doubt the suspicion of trafficking was justified.
3) justification of probably cause makes the search legal regardless of whether the crime can be proven
4) other crimes committed discovered under a legal and valid search are fair game and if the search was legal the evidence of the side crime is admissible

To sum it up, you think the prosecution will/should prevail based on what you know and connecting the dots in front of you, or you have no reason to believe otherwise.

Others such as myself think the defense will/should prevail based on what we know and the connecting the same dots in front of us but coming up with a different prediction for how this will unfold.

There could be huge twists and turns no one is aware of.

Can we agreee on this?

 

[DaBronxPats14]

Ohh What a Tangled Web We Weave!

 

[DaBronxPats14]

:drumroll:

Been there, Done that!

 

[ralmat55]

Kraft has been a truly great owner. He has brought so much joy and pride to this city. He deserves much credit and accolades for his owner accomplishments.
As a person I don’t think very highly of him. Not long after his wife had passed he was prancing around with a thirty year old. Their had been rumors he was with the thirty year old while she was still alive. I will leave rumors where they belong and just base my opinion of him on not allowing her grave to set before the not so good look. He has that right but to me a bad look.
Now when he gets caught with his Nilly in the cookie jar he uses his wife as the sympathy card.
Sorry Bobby. Sympathy in the dictionary and in this case sits between Sperm and Syphilis

A little harsh, but I loved the ending.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

The thread hasn’t turned

Be careful what you ask for.

Remember there are laws that allow law enforcement to protect us and out property and rules that place limits upon how they do it.
When you say you want to raise the bar of what LE can do to investigate, prevent and solve crimes against us and our property you are also saying you want to lower the bar of how well we are protected.

Protection versus Privacy. Now we understand what the raw crux of this debate is. That’s fine. Cards are on the table. Yes, the pendulum swings towards one direction which is necessarily away from the other. As you say “Lower the bar”, I may in return offer that “protection” seems quite synonymous with unchecked power in many cases.

 

[Ring 6]

To sum it up, you think the prosecution will/should prevail based on what you know and connecting the dots in front of you, or you have no reason to believe otherwise.

The latter. LE received a complaint put together a strategy, for a warrant and caught kraft in a criminal act.
I have not seen anything that suggests any of that was questionable, but we do not know all of the details so as any information comes out of course my opinion is subject to revision.

Others such as myself think the defense will/should prevail based on what we know and the connecting the same dots in front of us but coming up with a different prediction for how this will unfold.

See this is the thing. To me you have to assume information you don’t have for that to be thr case.
It doesn’t mean you are wrong but it means if no new information comes to light you are going to be wrong because you are working from the assumption that evidence will be invalidated and there are no facts out that support that.

There could be huge twists and turns no one is aware of.

Can we agreee on this?

Mostly, see above.

 

[PatsWSB47]

No I have no horse in this race. My position is being objective. I’m the guy arguing that we can’t draw a conclusion without facts.

But let’s run with your thought.
The Florida department is health reported the spa in July of 2018 as a place where prostitution was occurring and the workers appeared to for the profile of trafficked people.
The 8 month investigation culminated in a few days of taped surveillance in January 2019 where bob kraft visited twice.

Are you honestly telling me the department of health reported potential human trafficking in order to set up bob kraft for a misdemeanor charge the following January and the police put forth 6 months of investigation into setting up bob kraft for a misdemeanor?
Further in order to set up a billionaire who would no doubt hire the best lawyers available to fight the charges, the decided to lie to a judge in order to get a warrant for human trafficking all the while having the prescience to know that when they set up the cameras in a town kraft doesn’t primarily live in the week his team is in the afccg in kc that in those few days he would show.
Come on

The investigation I'm sure was begun without Kraft in mind. That doesn't mean once they got wind he was a customer there that cameras weren't decided on. Ever hear of a tip? Jesus you believe everything has to be pure and righteous with every part of the investigation and dismiss every notion that there could ever be any funny business. How is that objective?.......just saying you are doesn't mean anything. Christ you're like Felgar and Maz that say they are objective....start off by saying Brady is the greatest then spend the next 4 hours telling us everything hes doing wrong.

 

[maust]

Protection versus Privacy. Now we understand what the raw crux of this debate is. That’s fine. Cards are on the table. Yes, the pendulum swings towards one direction which is necessarily away from the other. As you say “Lower the bar”, I may in return offer that “protection” seems quite synonymous with unchecked power in many cases.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

~Ben Franklin~

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

The latter. LE received a complaint put together a strategy, for a warrant and caught kraft in a criminal act.
I have not seen anything that suggests any of that was questionable, but we do not know all of the details so as any information comes out of course my opinion is subject to revision.



See this is the thing. To me you have to assume information you don’t have for that to be thr case.
It doesn’t mean you are wrong but it means if no new information comes to light you are going to be wrong because you are working from the assumption that evidence will be invalidated and there are no facts out that support that.


Mostly, see above.

Okay, fair enough.