Kraft Orchids Case - Prosecuters Want a Tug Rule?

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Of course and I’m sure you are well aware that it is an extremely rare occurrence for a judges determination of probably cause to be overturned even though it’s extrememy common for defense attorneys to take a shot at it.

Overall, I respectfully disagree but do understand your view in this argument AndyJohnson. You’ve argued your viewpoint well today.

 

[venecol]

He’s right. They used a fake bomb scare tactic, allowed under the Patriot Act, to evacuate the premises and enter and install the hidden sneak-and-peak cameras. They were allowed to install the cameras under the warrant but the method in how they did it used a provision of the Patriot Act.

Read this article.

Robert Kraft Might Beat Criminal Charges Due to Police Overreach and Privacy Issues

Thanks for finding that article, I had read that one also. There are many others saying the same thing. Here is an excerpt:

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Here is one of several articles that spoke about the warrant, how it is very rare to be used for these purposes (prostitution) and how they got expanded by Patriot Act for terrorism purposes.

"After the 9/11 attacks, the U.S. expanded the use of secret surveillance in the war on terror. But the tactic has spilled over to infiltrating other crimes, most recently the alleged sex acts at the Jupiter business.

In such cases, so-called sneak-and-peek warrants let authorities access private property so the government can secretly do a search without notifying people under investigation.

But legal experts say the police likely have taken an unprecedented step by hiding cameras on private property for an investigation into prostitution and human trafficking. Celeste Higgins, a University of Miami law professor, said she never saw a sneak-and-peek warrant during her 25 years as a federal public defender. “It’s a very rare thing to have,” she said.

And when these types of searches “get used for a common crime — quite frankly, as insignificant as basic prostitution — it’s very, very troubling,” she said. “That means there is no limit when they could use” it.

“Putting devices into locations is really the ultimate invasion,” she said. “How is this a terrorism case?”

Is sex trafficking enough reason for sneak-and-peek cameras? Legal experts aren’t so sure.

Nice “Surveillance Society for Dummies” for those who didn’t realize this is incredibly abnormal to begin by the obvious lack of other videos of secret prostitution sex videos circulating around the internet. However, your obvuous and true point will be lost again on all the usual suspects in this thread.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

Are the sex workers in these establishments criminals or victims?

They're capitalists

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

They're capitalists

They’re nihilists dude

@robertweathers

 

[venecol]

Its finally starting to dawn on me how the Patriot Act keeps on getting extended even 18 years after 9/11, there's an overwhelming amount of dumb azzes in this country.

Wow just amazing how people actually welcome cops installing cameras surreptitiously in private properties that allow them to monitor and observe innocent people that have an expectation of privacy. Next they will investigate escort services and install cameras in the homes of suspected johns.

 

[Ring 6]

Here is one of several articles that spoke about the warrant, how it is very rare to be used for these purposes (prostitution) and how they got expanded by Patriot Act for terrorism purposes.

"After the 9/11 attacks, the U.S. expanded the use of secret surveillance in the war on terror. But the tactic has spilled over to infiltrating other crimes, most recently the alleged sex acts at the Jupiter business.

In such cases, so-called sneak-and-peek warrants let authorities access private property so the government can secretly do a search without notifying people under investigation.

But legal experts say the police likely have taken an unprecedented step by hiding cameras on private property for an investigation into prostitution and human trafficking. Celeste Higgins, a University of Miami law professor, said she never saw a sneak-and-peek warrant during her 25 years as a federal public defender. “It’s a very rare thing to have,” she said.

And when these types of searches “get used for a common crime — quite frankly, as insignificant as basic prostitution — it’s very, very troubling,” she said. “That means there is no limit when they could use” it.

“Putting devices into locations is really the ultimate invasion,” she said. “How is this a terrorism case?”

Is sex trafficking enough reason for sneak-and-peek cameras? Legal experts aren’t so sure.

As I said you totally misrepresented it calling it a warrant for terrorism.

 

[venecol]

As I said you totally misrepresented it calling it a warrant for terrorism.

I'm going to guess that you're a moron.

Did I get lucky?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Its finally starting to dawn on me how the Patriot Act keeps on getting extended even 18 years after 9/11, there's an overwhelming amount of dumb azzes in this country.

Wow just amazing how people actually welcome cops installing cameras surreptitiously in private properties that allow them to monitor and observe innocent people that have an expectation of privacy. Next they will investigate escort services and install cameras in the homes of suspected johns.

What? It’s all good because the police and gov’t have our best interests at heart. With a little luck we’ll inch a little closer to North Korea-style society as one more total overreach of authority gets approved...which it seems most posters here are rooting for.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm going to guess that you're a moron.

Did I get lucky?

So proven wrong you take a shot at a personal attack. Very weak of you.

 

[lancerman]

So whose excited to see the tape?

 

[venecol]

So proven wrong you take a shot at a personal attack. Very weak of you.

Not if you refuse to read and understand these warrants were intended to be used for terrorism cases not for misdemeanor investigations.

 

[Ring 6]

What? It’s all good because the police and gov’t have our best interests at heart. With a little luck we’ll inch a little closer to North Korea-style society as one more total overreach of authority gets approved...which it seems most posters here are rooting for.

So when the florida department of health filed a complaint with the PD that all appearance were that sex acts to the tune of 15,000 customers per year were being performed on the premises, that bodily fluids were found in the trash, that the foreign female employees slept there on the massage tables, cooked on the backs steps never left and had no form of transportation what would the police do in your world? Ignore it?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

So whose excited to see the tape?

1. The Jupiter PD.
2. No one else.

 

[Ring 6]

Not if you refuse to read and understand these warrants were intended to be used for terrorism cases not for misdemeanor investigations.

View attachment 22903

Can you actually read? It does not say they were intended for terrorism it says that was a popular use of them. Jesus.


This is what you said.

I have a major problem with the way LE went about gathering the evidence, using a warrant used for terrorism to bust a bunch of johns getting massages is not the reason we all gave up on some of our rights in passing the Patriot Act.

They didn’t use a warrant used for terrorism. They used a warrant granted specifically for this investigation. That warrant authorized a method of surveillance that is popular in terrorism cases.

There is a world of difference between those 2 statements.

Yours says the searches based upon a warrant issued for terrorism, the truth is starkly different.

And I can accept that you did a poor job of explaining what you were trying to say which led to the mischaracterizatuon but I’m afraid you lack the ability to admit that and will
gonin am aggressive, insulting tirade because you just won’t be honest about it.

 

[Brewskies]

Kraft is only sorry he got caught. Always testing the limits. Show the tape unedited without commercials in color.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

So when the florida department of health filed a complaint with the PD that all appearance were that sex acts to the tune of 15,000 customers per year were being performed on the premises, that bodily fluids were found in the trash, that the foreign female employees slept there on the massage tables, cooked on the backs steps never left and had no form of transportation what would the police do in your world? Ignore it?

15,000 people per year.
Roughly 1,000 per month.
Yet only 25 johns?

Can you really not see why this investigation was an obvious crash and burn?

And if there were 1,000 customers in January and 25 johns, would that not equal 975 innocent people being recorded taking their clothes off for a massage?

But to answer your question, that’s when you do your job and investigate a complaint, not assume there’s reason for a massive sting operation and secretly watch people take off their clothes for the next month. Otherwise you get problems like the simple math I just stated.

Are you an attorney? I suspect the Jupiter PD will be looking for tons of legal help in short order.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

LMAO, I said the same thing and you hit it with a thumbs down

Thumb war!

 

[Ring 6]

15,000 people per year.
Roughly 1,000 per month.
Yet only 25 johns?

I wonder why? Could be the health department was wrong. Could be the cameras were only in for 3 days.

See now why I asked all those questions you chose not to answer about all the facts that we don’t know that would have a dramatic effect in how we evaluate this entire issue?

Can you really not see why this investigation was an obvious crash and burn?

No because I don’t have facts. They said 8 per day/ 1500 per year in the doh complaint. So that’s actually 4-8 per day.
How long were the cameras in place? Was it only 3 days? We do not know.
See so many arguments are being made without facts including why did they investigate for so long instead of getting the girls out of there and here we have a suggestion the may have stopped it in 3 days.

And if there were 1,000 customers in January and 25 johns, would that not equal 975 innocent people being recorded taking their clothes off for a massage?

Well you made up the number of customers and you made up the number of days.
FYI a judge decided the inconvenience of a police officer being able to see the massage rooon was less an issue than the severity of the crime the DOH reported to the police.

But to answer your question, that’s when you do your job and investigate a complaint,

That is EXACTLY what they did.
They followed the constitution and the 4th amendment and investigated the charges that the DOH brought them probable cause for.

not assume there’s reason for a massive sting operation and secretly watch people take off their clothes for the next month. Otherwise you get problems like the simple math I just stated.

Obviously you have problems making up facts.
The report from the DOH screams of exploited sexual workers from an area of the world where human trafficking of sex slaves often forced to work in the exact type of business is rampant.
Which is worse ignoring the potential that women are being trafficked into slavery or accepting that omg random people will briefly be undressed and a professional police officer may see.

Are you an attorney? I suspect th Jupiter PD will be looking for tons of legal help in short order.

I think they have it covered. The law favors facts.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

Catching up on this thread was fun, can't wait to check back later