Kraft Orchids Case - Prosecuters Want a Tug Rule?

[BTTA]

Murder is also happening all over the country, and in that part of FL. Let’s write a carte blanche check to every law enforcement department to surveillance, search, and spy on everyone. And since it usually happens in a domestic setting, let’s let make sure they have the authority to secretly monitor your own residence, too.

That has nothing to do with what I posted.

 

[BTTA]

So a hunter hears a noise coming from the bushes and he just shoots at it.

Law enforcement does their job: they scan the environment for signs of illegal activity, and they take action to investigate it when those signs show up. Without this mindset and activity, we don't have a civil society.

 

[BTTA]

As I said, fairy tale.

 

[venecol]

Ok as predicted from the very beginning of this sad sordid affair, Defense attorneys filed a motion to suppress videos based on US and FL constitutional grounds and other case history.

They also amended the motion to preserve probably in response to the media motion to allow release of video. As some of us suspected Kraft is fighting this all the way, as he should. I suspect every other defendant out there and there are 300 will follow suit and the State will have to deal with 300 trials by jury with subsequent appeals of motions for what amounts to misdemeanor charges that prosecutors were willing to drop with a so called theoretical admission that johns could be found guilty. This is really embarrassing.

 

[Ring 6]

There was an article in Business Insider, IIRC, listing various cases of misconduct over the last 10 years by that specific Sheriffs office.

I thought you were talking about misconduct surrounding this case.

No, don't believe we need the Human Trafficking angle to get a guilty verdict for Kraft, but without that angle...would the DA really want to prosecute a minor offense? That is a lot of money to be spent to prosecute a hand job...

This is where I lose the trafficking argument.
I see it this way, two scenarios.
1) based upon the warrants in the similar cases we have seen, the investigation was for prostitution. (I’m sure it can be argued that you have to establish prostitution and make arrests to begin going after traffickers) so if the warrant was not about trafficking how do you argue why would they prosecute prostitution without trafficking?
2) if this warrant in krafts case did include trafficking investigations the arrest is still a consequence of a police investigation

Perhaps what you are saying is they wouldn’t make soliciting prostitution arrests unless the prostitute was trafficked?
The warrants we have seen do not indicate that.

Its dead even if there's video for the same reason above. Why posecute something minor and risk a lawsuit by releasing a video that may or may not be admissable. It's a mess...get out while you are ahead. Kraf's rep took a hit...that's a win.

Wait.
They ARE prosecuting. They are NOT releasing a video nor have the said they would. They said if a foil request is made after the case is over the law says they provably have to grant it. In fact they said it CANNOT UINDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be released while the case is pending. So they literally can’t risk it being released then deemed inadmissible.
Release of the video has nothing to do with the case because LE isn’t “releasing it”. The Florida sunshine laws are the issue and THEY determine whether someone requesting a copy of the video can get it.

If you are saying you think LE is going to post it on the internet, that’s just not accurate.

Finally eliminating the video doesn’t end the case because the evidence would be the testimony of the police officers who were monitoring the surveillance cameras.

 

[PatsWSB47]

Law enforcement does their job: they scan the environment for signs of illegal activity, and they take action to investigate it when those signs show up. Without this mindset and activity, we don't have a civil society.

what you said was wrong though. Why is it a shame they didnt find human trafficking in a place where their wasn't any?

 

[Ring 6]

Ok as predicted from the very beginning of this sad sordid affair, Defense attorneys filed a motion to suppress videos based on US and FL constitutional grounds and other case history.

They also amended the motion to preserve probably in response to the media motion to allow release of video. As some of us suspected Kraft is fighting this all the way, as he should. I suspect every other defendant out there and there are 300 will follow suit and the State will have to deal with 300 trials by jury with subsequent appeals of motions for what amounts to misdemeanor charges that prosecutors were willing to drop with a so called theoretical admission that johns could be found guilty. This is really embarrassing.

It’s the legal system playing out.
The offer to stop with an admission is standard.
Kraft paying $1500 an hour lawyers to file briefs, do interviews and make this a drawn out event is not.
I doubt many of the 300 see the cost of that level of defense as worth fighting a losing case that you can just make go away by paying a fine and pleading no contest.

I’m not sure where the embarrassment is.

 

[BTTA]

what you said was wrong though. Why is it a shame they didnt find human trafficking in a place where their wasn't any?

There is plenty of evidence that there is human trafficking just about everywhere in the US. The fact that they didn't find it in this one very small effort in FL does not lead to a conclusion that there wasn't any. It just means they didn't find it, at that time, in that one place that they looked.

So that was an allocation of resources by you and me (in the form of our shared law enforcement system) to try and take down some horrible stuff that's happening. It may have failed (we don't really know yet, because a lot of these things take time and work in the background). If it did fail, then that's lost resources being spent on a good cause.

We have people monitoring all kinds of activity in society, for this same purpose: to try and catch bad actors doing bad acting. Without that kind of monitoring, civil society would fall apart. And it is a failure of monitoring that is creating so many of our problems today.

In this thread and all through public discourse, people sometimes conflate issues about monitoring methods with whether we should be monitoring at all, and that leads to misguided beliefs about appropriate policy.

 

[PatsWSB47]

It’s the legal system playing out.
The offer to stop with an admission is standard.
Kraft paying $1500 an hour lawyers to file briefs, do interviews and make this a drawn out event is not.
I doubt many of the 300 see the cost of that level of defense as worth fighting a losing case that you can just make go away by paying a fine and pleading no contest.

I’m not sure where the embarrassment is.

Why should anybody have to admit guilt just to have charges dropped? People are scared to fight and yes often times dont have the money to.....especially when they tell them it will be harder on them if they lose in court. Legal twisting of arm and decision made under duress.

 

[Hyped]

I thought you were talking about misconduct surrounding this case.



This is where I lose the trafficking argument.
I see it this way, two scenarios.
1) based upon the warrants in the similar cases we have seen, the investigation was for prostitution. (I’m sure it can be argued that you have to establish prostitution and make arrests to begin going after traffickers) so if the warrant was not about trafficking how do you argue why would they prosecute prostitution without trafficking?
2) if this warrant in krafts case did include trafficking investigations the arrest is still a consequence of a police investigation

Perhaps what you are saying is they wouldn’t make soliciting prostitution arrests unless the prostitute was trafficked?
The warrants we have seen do not indicate that.


Wait.
They ARE prosecuting. They are NOT releasing a video nor have the said they would. They said if a foil request is made after the case is over the law says they provably have to grant it. In fact they said it CANNOT UINDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be released while the case is pending. So they literally can’t risk it being released then deemed inadmissible.
Release of the video has nothing to do with the case because LE isn’t “releasing it”. The Florida sunshine laws are the issue and THEY determine whether someone requesting a copy of the video can get it.

If you are saying you think LE is going to post it on the internet, that’s just not accurate.

Finally eliminating the video doesn’t end the case because the evidence would be the testimony of the police officers who were monitoring the surveillance cameras.

I will have to get back to you later. Real life is calling me away .

 

[Ring 6]

what you said was wrong though. Why is it a shame they didnt find human trafficking in a place where their wasn't any?

I find your comment interesting.

This is my understanding which I admit is an impression and could be wrong.

Human trafficking throughout the world is a major issue.
Trafficked woman are often sold into the sex trade.
There is a high frequency of trafficking among Asian women.

So if there are brothels all over Florida with Asian women living in them and never leaving how do you confidently draw the conclusion that it doesn’t happen rather than it can’t be proven.
Surely we can agree that crimes happen that can’t be proven, and professional criminals employ methods to make their crimes difficult to prove.

As I said I don’t know what is happening, but I’m curious how you can be so confident (confident enough to tell the poster he is unequivocally wrong) that it’s not a case of it is occurring but can’t be proven and prosecuted?

 

[Ring 6]

Why should anybody have to admit guilt just to have charges dropped? People are scared to fight and yes often times dont have the money to.....especially when they tell them it will be harder on them if they lose in court. Legal twisting of arm and decision made under duress.

Because they committed the crime and it’s a plea bargain.

 

[BTTA]

Murder is also happening all over the country, and in that part of FL. Let’s write a carte blanche check to every law enforcement department to surveillance, search, and spy on everyone. And since it usually happens in a domestic setting, let’s let make sure they have the authority to secretly monitor your own residence, too.

We can't have a functional civil society without law enforcement sometimes overstepping their authority and infringing on people's rights. Millions of people involved in law enforcement, going about their work every day, will lead to someone overstepping. The web of laws, and system of competing rights, and the pressures on individuals, grows daily in complexity, and that complexity increases error rates.

Just like we can't have modern health care without it sometimes killing people by mistake. We can't have big, fast moving transportation systems without awful things happening. It is called "normal accidents" and it is an inevitable aspect of people doing complex things in a complex world.

The challenge is to have an effective adult response to that inevitability, by designing human systems to reduce the likelihood, and then an effective adult response to the actual events when they happen.

Reactions that are extreme, or absolute, or hyper-emotional cause people to disengage from the hard work to make systems better, and in doing so, actually increase the odds that accidents will happen in the future.

 

[PatsWSB47]

There is plenty of evidence that there is human trafficking just about everywhere in the US. The fact that they didn't find it in this one very small effort in FL does not lead to a conclusion that there wasn't any. It just means they didn't find it, at that time, in that one place that they looked.

So that was an allocation of resources by you and me (in the form of our shared law enforcement system) to try and take down some horrible stuff that's happening. It may have failed (we don't really know yet, because a lot of these things take time and work in the background). If it did fail, then that's lost resources being spent on a good cause.

We have people monitoring all kinds of activity in society, for this same purpose: to try and catch bad actors doing bad acting. Without that kind of monitoring, civil society would fall apart. And it is a failure of monitoring that is creating so many of our problems today.

In this thread and all through public discourse, people sometimes conflate issues about monitoring methods with whether we should be monitoring at all, and that leads to misguided beliefs about appropriate policy.

You seem certain there was.

I find your comment interesting.

This is my understanding which I admit is an impression and could be wrong.

Human trafficking throughout the world is a major issue.
Trafficked woman are often sold into the sex trade.
There is a high frequency of trafficking among Asian women.

So if there are brothels all over Florida with Asian women living in them and never leaving how do you confidently draw the conclusion that it doesn’t happen rather than it can’t be proven.
Surely we can agree that crimes happen that can’t be proven, and professional criminals employ methods to make their crimes difficult to prove.

As I said I don’t know what is happening, but I’m curious how you can be so confident (confident enough to tell the poster he is unequivocally wrong) that it’s not a case of it is occurring but can’t be proven and prosecuted?

Stop it Andy. Eveything you post is with full support and sympathetic to everything the authorities has done in this investigation so stop with the you dont know routine. Why is it a shame they haven't been able to make human trafficking arrests?

 

[Ring 6]

You seem certain there was.

Stop it Andy. Eveything you post is with full support and sympathetic to everything the authorities has done in this investigation so stop with the you dont know routine. Why is it a shame they haven't been able to make human trafficking arrests?

Bullshlt
I take the side that is opposite the people talking crap
If this thread were about burying kraft before the facts come out, I would have been arguing that is wrong without knowing the facts.
My argument is not pro any side, it’s pro truth and fact.

I have never, not once, not ever, said i know trafficking is happening or that the authorities were right.
I said that facts are facts and until there are facts to dispute it, then we start from the assumption the facts we have been given are true. Then when more facts come out we assess them and when all us said and done we conclude.

I see you refuse to answer my question though. See you have an agenda, a bias, and a side. I do not.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

We can't have a functional civil society without law enforcement sometimes overstepping their authority and infringing on people's rights.

You could have just stopped there because what you’re desecribing calls for an immediate check/balance in the system, not a long rationalization about the sociological nature of authority within society, it’s challenges, it’s problems, and why we shouldn’t be so upset about it.

Overstepping authority and infringing on people’s lives may often be an inevitable occurrence, but that does make it acceptable.

 

[XLIX]

Why should anybody have to admit guilt just to have charges dropped?

Well, if they happen to actually be guilty, then for most people that's a pretty darn fair deal.

 

[BTTA]

You seem certain there was.

I'm certain that there IS. And that fact justifies, in fact demands, law enforcement activity.

Now, I've no idea if there was any in that particular massage parlor during that particular period of time. There's circumstantial evidence that there was, but they haven't reported any more evidence than that.

Stop it Andy. Eveything you post is with full support and sympathetic to everything the authorities has done in this investigation so stop with the you dont know routine. Why is it a shame they haven't been able to make human trafficking arrests?

It is a shame because there is clear proof that human trafficking is widespread throughout most of the US, and resources were expended trying to get after it, to little or no avail. That's a shame.

 

[BTTA]

You could have just stopped there because what you’re desecribing calls for an immediate check/balance in the system, not a long rationalization about the sociological nature of authority within society, it’s challenges, it’s problems, and why we shouldn’t be so upset about it.

Overstepping authority and infringing on people’s lives may often be an inevitable occurrence, but that does make it acceptable.

And if you hadn't stopped right there, and read the rest of my post, you'd see that much of what I wrote was about how to avoid it and address it when it happens. You are reading my posts through very distorted lens'.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

And if you hadn't stopped right there, and read the rest of my post, you'd see that much of what I wrote was about how to avoid it and address it when it happens. You are reading my posts through very distorted lens'.

I read your whole post. In short, people shouldn’t get so angry at the PD even if they did mess this up because it’s a complicated world and it’s inevitable that this stuff happens sometimes. Your solution: I have no idea what you’re even attempting to say here, I just know that police abusing their authority is not as complicated or “well intentioned” in many cases as you imply.

The challenge is to have an effective adult response to that inevitability, by designing human systems to reduce the likelihood, and then an effective adult response to the actual events when they happen.