Car@NE - Rewatch Thread

[Kdo5]

Yeah it's looking more and more like a lot of this is actually falling on McCourty. Rodney said as much last night, too. As the captain and the leader of the secondary, it's going to be up to him to make sure everyone knows their assignments if they're confused. Rowe had a god awful game yesterday as well as these plays have shown.

Oh yeah Rowe definitely sucked. It was noticeable in game too. That missed tackle on third down was an atrocity of an attempt.

Gilmore is receiving plenty of flak and he should. He is getting paid a lot and underperforming.

Still the problems are much greater than Gilmore. Miscommunication is all over the place is killing us as much as any individual is. So yes...McCourty bears significant responsibility. He has long done a good job and our safety play has been a consistent strength over the past couple of years. Don't know what the hell is happening right now.

 

[Ring 6]

After reading Dussaults take on yesterdays loss (Pats Posits: No Rest for the Wicked (Bad Defense) - PatsPropaganda) I think one of the more interesting things to maybe look at in the all22 will be the front seven:

Tackles for loss don't happen a lot in a 2gap scheme.

 

[Ring 6]

I wanna start early this week mostly because the last couple of rewatch threads have proven to be nice little sanctuaries of reason with no hot takes and mostly evidence based talk.

Maybe we can ask a mod (@Ross12 ?) to maybe help out to keep it that way and remove pointless posts that are off topic, dont contribute to the discussion or are simply trolling.


Anyway, the first thing that came to mind after waking up today and taking a quick look at some scenes in the condensed version of the game is that one play before halftime that seemed to have shattered whatever was left in terms of self confidence in the secondary.


Here from another angle



And here is where I am seeing this play fall apart already presnap because of something trivial:

Butler seems to be positioned a bit too shallow so Gilmore is pointing out to him that he needs to get back a few steps.



At the same time Rowe turns around and gives a quick hand symbol which most probably is supposed to let Gilmore know the assignment against the bunch formation. But Gilmore seems to still be facing Butler exactly at that point moment



Then when McCaffrey motions out DMac moves from his initial Robber-esque position closer to the LOS but leaves behind a ton of open space.



This entire sequence was just a cluster#### of communication caused by a player missing a handsign because he was trying to correct another players positioning.

Rowe was nice enough to get out of the receivers way when he decided to go civet someone else's man.

 

[long distance]

Lombardi says Pats try to compensate lack of pass rush w blitz schemes and mixing it in secondary and this creates additional problems.

I wonder if having your best pass rusher dropping in coverage (Flowers) and second best (Wise) playing below 40% of the time is the best way to go? The same goes for Hightower KVN exchange of positions?

Lombardi expects simplified D vs TB and then reevaluation during the mini bye.

 

[NE-VT]

I love the gfycat clips @luuked ! I decided to make one. I might start doing it more going forward.


Just pointing out another bad tackle attempt by Rowe. I think he over respected Mccaffrey juking ability. This should have been an easy tackle given that he had the sideline to help him.

 

[PP2]

I think that at this point, it's no longer an X and O problem. It's a chemistry problem, it's a trust issue.

I think that as mentioned, the wild card is Gilmore. He clearly is experiencing severe cultural shock, not just from the big change in terminology, complexity of schemes, but also the culture, the accountability, which he probably never had in Buffalo. He is being called out in ways he probably never imagined possible.

We took him out of Buffalo, but the question here is, can we take the Buffalo out of him?

This tweet by Hurley is not encouraging at all:



It would be interesting to see how they proceed from here. I believe that if Rowe is good to go for Thursday (highly doubtful), Gilmore will be benched.

But if not, I wonder how we can proceed from this point on- do we simply isolate Gilmore on a man (TB's 2nd best player) the entire game, and all over the field, and play our regular covers with the rest of our backfield? As both Harmon and MCD have mentioned the defense has been simplified as much as it possibly can, but this is not helping at all.

If the mini-bye doesn't improve things, I wouldn't be surprised if we picked up the phone and dialed Revis's number.

 

[luuked]

I think that at this point, it's no longer an X and O problem. It's a chemistry problem, it's a trust issue.

I think that as mentioned, the wild card is Gilmore. He clearly is experiencing severe cultural shock, not just from the big change in terminology, complexity of schemes, but also the culture, the accountability, which he probably never had in Buffalo. He is being called out in ways he probably never imagined possible.

We took him out of Buffalo, but the question here is, can we take the Buffalo out of him?

This tweet by Hurley is not encouraging at all:



It would be interesting to see how they proceed from here. I believe that if Rowe is good to go for Thursday (highly doubtful), Gilmore will be benched.

....

If the mini-bye doesn't improve things, I wouldn't be surprised if we picked up the phone and dialed Revis's number.

After watching all the individual break downs I personally cant continue harping at Gilmore if there are sequences where Rowe or Butler screw up with Gilmore not even being close to the scene of the crime. I understand that people have higher expectations from him given his salary but at the same time the other defensive backs (except for Rowe who came very early last year) have been together for years.

What is their excuse ?

But if not, I wonder how we can proceed from this point on- do we simply isolate Gilmore on a man (TB's 2nd best player) the entire game, and all over the field, and play our regular covers with the rest of our backfield? As both Harmon and MCD have mentioned the defense has been simplified as much as it possibly can, but this is not helping at all.

I would just play more zone to avoid big plays and try to grind out a win via our offense. I said it before the mini BYE after the Bucs game gives us 17 days or so to work on those fundamentals and get everyone onto the same page for the Falcons game with a game against the Jets in between. That game against the Falcons will be my first real checkpoint of the season before the proper BYE.

 

[stelfans]

What a cluster**** going on on that secondary. Now its clear, its a communication problem, and a big one.

Something(someone) is affecting that unit. The whole Butler thing and then bringing in Gilmore destroyed that unit. Lets see how this unfolds but i cant believe BB is gonna let this slide much more.

 

[luuked]

I love the gfycat clips @luuked ! I decided to make one. I might start doing it more going forward.


Just pointing out another bad tackle attempt by Rowe. I think he over respected Mccaffrey juking ability. This should have been an easy tackle given that he had the sideline to help him.

I still cant believe how stupidly Rowe "tackled" the Panthers player in this play. He pulled him to an extra 6 yard gain on what should have been a 4 yard dump off.

Poor fundamentals, communication issues and key players out of shape.

 

[luuked]

Butler is already off running deep leaving #17 open before Newton even starts a throwing motion.



I dont get why anyone would disagree that he played poker in this scene and assumed that Cam would not follow through on his progressions. There is clearly more than enough time for Newton to go to #17. He got lucky this time..

Even if it contradicts what I just posted.. BaldyNFL seems to agree with @ALP that this was not as much of a coverage bust as a positive play from Butler:



If Butler really did the right thing here then I wonder who is supposed to cover #17 in case Newton would check down ? Keep in mind this is a third down play (third & 4). @ALP any idea ?

 

[luuked]

Also BaldyNFL has posted a clip that has more of the pre-snap confusion from the Panthers TD visible:



What goes under in all the visible confusion created by the motion is how bad Elandon Roberts whiffed because he lost eyes on Whittaker. Even if DMac/Gilmore would have been in place there were two Carolina lineman ready for blocks right there.

 

[luuked]

Good view on the Rowe ****up on Funchess that we had discussed as well:

 

[long distance]

nice slow-mo of front 7 miscommunication - leaving B gap wide open for easiest QB run..

 

[luuked]

nice slow-mo of front 7 miscommunication - leaving B gap wide open for easiest QB run..

I mean.. if you put Marsh against a guard there is a good chance he will be taken out of the play and open up a running lane. Pretty weird defensive call against someone who can run. Especially because DMac playing the rat was out of the play immediately when McCaffrey went in to block.

 

[long distance]

A look at the last drive (no vid unfortunately) . epitome of Pats beating themselves early 2017 pattern:

• 3rd and 7 at CAR 27 - 2:23 to go.
  After Cam's missed throw and good run stop by Flowers and Marsh Pats have Panthers at 3rd and long. Pats show great pass rush w High-Flowers-Wise-Marsh w KVN spying behind. Wise breaks through for a great sack at CAR 16. All is set for a likely ugly NE win.
• But there's a flag on the play, Gilmore hands to face 2nd time in the game, 5yd 1st down CAR.

• 1st and 10 at CAR 32 - 2:11
  Stewart's easy run (almost walk in the park) for 15yds. Guys who were fired up before are spectators here (High,KVN..)
  
  
• 3rd and 3 at NE 46 - 1:05
  After Funchess is injured on missed pass on 1st down (Butler in great coverage almost intercepts) & Cam runs for 7 . Funchess returns to the game hobbling and is left all alone on the yellow line w Butler and JJ uncertain of coverage. I mean if you can't stop an injured receiver in a situation like this then that's just the end of it.. (this one was really frustrating)
  
  
• On the next 1st down there's a solid run stop by front 7 (incl. #59 M.Flowers who played all or at least most downs on this drive!) leaving CAR at 2nd and 8 at NE 41 but another stupid penalty (Chung's ridiculous holding) gives CAR another 5 yds and 1st down and the game is basically over.

 

[Kontradiction]

I agree. After Dussault wrote that he is more concerned about the front 7 than the secondary I am really curious how they looked.

Wise on a snap count, Branch either not 100% or declining, loss of leadership from Nink's retirement, Flowers looking at consistent double teams, Butler being a rookie, Hightower being injured, Van Noy being limited in what he can do, and Marsh being brand new. As Wise's snaps increase and the team adjusts further to life without Nink, a lot of the issues plaguing the front are also correctable.

 

[luuked]

Wise on a snap count, Branch either not 100% or declining, loss of leadership from Nink's retirement, Flowers looking at consistent double teams, Butler being a rookie, Hightower being injured, Van Noy being limited in what he can do, and Marsh being brand new. As Wise's snaps increase and the team adjusts further to life without Nink, a lot of the issues plaguing the front are also correctable.

I hope that Branch can return to form in the next couple of games. This just doesnt look good at all.

 

[PP2]

After watching all the individual break downs I personally cant continue harping at Gilmore if there are sequences where Rowe or Butler screw up with Gilmore not even being close to the scene of the crime. I understand that people have higher expectations from him given his salary but at the same time the other defensive backs (except for Rowe who came very early last year) have been together for years.

What is their excuse ?

First and foremost, this problem didn't exist last year, especially at the end. So it's hard to point the finger at anyone with the team last year, but-

I can't help but wonder if there's a superbowl hangover- it's generally difficult for most teams/players to continue competing at a high level after winning the superbowl (Tom Brady excepted), because there's a "we won, so now what?" mentality.

This is not to say that I don't believe that this defense will eventually get its act together, but Gilmore DOES have bad habits that are carrying over from Buffalo- particularly the inability to not repeat the same mistakes (two back to back illegal hands to the face, especially when you know you've got Boger and his crew, who are the biggest jackasses east of the Mississippi). There are high standards around here, especially the expectation that you visibly improve every single game, and we have yet to see that from Gilmore.

The fact is that he is directly responsible for 3 of the 4 big breakdowns from the game.

That being said, it took Revis until the 5th game to really click and he then played lights out the rest of the year, so... hopefully we see something similar.

I would just play more zone to avoid big plays and try to grind out a win via our offense. I said it before the mini BYE after the Bucs game gives us 17 days or so to work on those fundamentals and get everyone onto the same page for the Falcons game with a game against the Jets in between. That game against the Falcons will be my first real checkpoint of the season before the proper BYE.

I would actually avoid playing too much zone because zone requires a lot more communication and coordination as coverage is passed from one zone to another. Playing zone against bunch routes- that's just asking for trouble at this point as there's a lot more switching. It'll be interesting to see what happens Thursday night and to see how BB deals with the problem. He is by far the best in the league at self-scouting.

 

[Love The Drake]

I love the gfycat clips @luuked ! I decided to make one. I might start doing it more going forward.


Just pointing out another bad tackle attempt by Rowe. I think he over respected Mccaffrey juking ability. This should have been an easy tackle given that he had the sideline to help him.

He's clearly playing hurt

 

[Love The Drake]

I think that at this point, it's no longer an X and O problem. It's a chemistry problem, it's a trust issue.

I think that as mentioned, the wild card is Gilmore. He clearly is experiencing severe cultural shock, not just from the big change in terminology, complexity of schemes, but also the culture, the accountability, which he probably never had in Buffalo. He is being called out in ways he probably never imagined possible.

We took him out of Buffalo, but the question here is, can we take the Buffalo out of him?

This tweet by Hurley is not encouraging at all:



It would be interesting to see how they proceed from here. I believe that if Rowe is good to go for Thursday (highly doubtful), Gilmore will be benched.

But if not, I wonder how we can proceed from this point on- do we simply isolate Gilmore on a man (TB's 2nd best player) the entire game, and all over the field, and play our regular covers with the rest of our backfield? As both Harmon and MCD have mentioned the defense has been simplified as much as it possibly can, but this is not helping at all.

If the mini-bye doesn't improve things, I wouldn't be surprised if we picked up the phone and dialed Revis's number.

I think if you bench Gilmore your setting a bad precedent for down the road and we are committed to him.
I think last thing he needs is to feel alienated.
I think the opposite you encourage you coach you keep the playmaker out there.
It's the secondary coaches Job to be reminding no hands to the face and I saw in the KC Was game they called a ticky tack hands to the face in the 4th.
So maybe we are seeing a new trend?
However Gilmore said he's not going to change the way he plays and I respect that I don't want him to all of a sudden become passive and timid we don't need that on any players on defense.
That being said a call to Revis isn't a terrible idea someone communicating and has respect and field awareness.
Maybe the problem is that Butler and Gilmore can't coexist Butler is but hurt over money and Gilmore feels odd coming in and taking command.
This is Chung and Mccourty job to reel in this secondary which we we're talking like they could be other worldly but the early returns have been quite opposite.
Watching ED ****son fly past Mccourty is one of the most discouraging things I've seen out of this defense.
I'm bag to closing my eyes when the opposing offense is on third down.
To much talent in the secondary for anything but great success.
Next finger needs to be pointed at the coaches.
If you can't get a pass rush you need to manufacture one.
I was waiting for the defense to pop Newton even late just to know you can't push this defense but it never happened.
If this isn't fixed by the bye week we will blow this thing up.
Nink retiring and Rivers getting hurt is very painful indeed.
I'm at the point right now where I would trade anyone on this offense not named Brady Gronk or Cooks for someone who can scare a quarterback.
As Much as I love Lewis I would offer him on a platter to Minnesota for one of their pass rushers.