Do Patriot fans have less loyalty to Tom Brady than Browns fans did to Bernie Kosar

[Ring 6]

Look at the image again.

The most obvious word on there is PERSISTENCE. It's all in caps in red and is the largest text in the entire thing.

And in typical AndyJohnson fashion, you ignore the most obvious thing, then try to spin the rest into some false assumptions about what the other person is trying to say.

Again, thank you for the laugh. It was a nice way to end the day.

No point carrying on the discussion, you've already convinced yourself it means I want Brady gone and nothing I can say will change that so feel free to keep your next post brief since I'm skipping it entirely.

I won't put you on ignore because I think you have a lot of good stuff to say, but there are moments where you go off on your own and this is obviously one of those.

Apparently you were attempting to be clever. It failed.

 

[StockingAnarchyNumber12]

Brady will not play until 45 and I highly doubt his wife will let him. Can he play til 45 as an almost elite quarterback? Possible. Will it happen? No. Why? His family will end up more important within 2-3 years.

I am so confident that it might even happen after this season. If not, within the next 2.

 

[sb1]

I know a 40+ year old Brady is not as far off from the end as we'd all like him to be and yes I think there's a decent chance his exit won't be voluntary.

With that said I agree that a lot of Pats fans seem "ready" to move on to JG. I'm not anywhere near sold that JG is the heir and I bet the team isn't either. In fact I'm not yet convinced he's as good as people want to believe he is. I trust BB knows what he is doing.

 

[ivanvamp]

So why throw one away when playing at his peak?

What is the likelihood that the Patriots win the Super Bowl with Brady as the starting QB next year? I'd suggest they are pretty good. Less than "the field", but the highest number of any individual team in the NFL.

What is the likelihood that the Patriots win the Super Bowl with JG as the starting QB next year? I'd suggest that they are clearly much worse than if Brady was the starting QB. However, I'd also suggest that they would still be a solid playoff team with a legitimate shot at winning the SB with JG. Not the favorite, but still, a legitimate shot.

What is the likelihood that the Patriots win the Super Bowl in 2022 with Brady as the starting QB? Not high. Brady is a totally unique athlete but I cannot see him playing at this level in 2022. In fact, I'd suggest that it's more likely than not that even if he wants to be, Brady won't be the starting QB in 2022.

What is the likelihood that the Patriots win the Super Bowl in 2022 with JG as the starting QB? I'd suggest that an in-his-prime JG offers the 2022 Patriots a better chance of winning a Super Bowl than a 45 year old Brady, as great as Brady is.

What is the likelihood that the Patriots win the Super Bowl in 2022 with an as-of-right-now-unknown-guy as the starting QB? NO. IDEA. Because we have no idea who that guy will be. But I bet it's not very good. Finding a really good NFL QB is not easy. As most of these teams are finding out. If JG is let go, and they count on Brady, and he can't play at a high level in 2022, and someone else has to be the QB, I'd think that that guy won't be very good compared to TB or JG.

See, the Patriots (Kraft, Belichick) have to think about NOW but also down the road. It's entirely possible that letting JG go and going with TB would be a benefit in 2017 and 2018. I'd say, in fact, that that's a good bet. But at some point in the next few years, it's almost certain that Brady will not be as good. He's an incredible athlete, but he's not superhuman. He's not a cyborg. Avocado ice cream may be great for you, but it's not going to make you superman forever. So BB is thinking about the next great Patriots QB. It may be that he thinks JG is that guy, and that not only will he be that guy in 2022 (and beyond), but that he'll also STILL give them a great shot in 2017-18.

Now don't think for a minute that I'm suggesting that BB will, or should, trade or cut Brady. I think that's about a zero chance of happening. But I also think that BB knows that finding a great QB is not easy, and if he thinks that JG is (or is about to be) a great one, then he may try to find a way to keep them BOTH. It would require some painful and creative roster management, but figuring out what that might take is the point of a separate thread, one that you seemed quite content to contaminate.

 

[StockingAnarchyNumber12]

I know a 40+ year old Brady is not as far off from the end as we'd all like him to be and yes I think there's a decent chance his exit won't be voluntary.

With that said I agree that a lot of Pats fans seem "ready" to move on to JG. I'm not anywhere near sold that JG is the heir and I bet the team isn't either. In fact I'm not yet convinced he's as good as people want to believe he is. I trust BB knows what he is doing.

I'm not sold on Jimmy G either. Heck, I'm not even sold we will be a good team in 5 years post Brady.

 

[Ring 6]

What is the likelihood that the Patriots win the Super Bowl with Brady as the starting QB next year? I'd suggest they are pretty good. Less than "the field", but the highest number of any individual team in the NFL.

What is the likelihood that the Patriots win the Super Bowl with JG as the starting QB next year? I'd suggest that they are clearly much worse than if Brady was the starting QB. However, I'd also suggest that they would still be a solid playoff team with a legitimate shot at winning the SB with JG. Not the favorite, but still, a legitimate shot.

No team with an unproven QB who has played 1 1/2 NFL games had a legitimate shot.

What is the likelihood that the Patriots win the Super Bowl in 2022 with Brady as the starting QB?

Not high. Brady is a totally unique athlete but I cannot see him playing at this level in 2022. In fact, I'd suggest that it's more likely than not that even if he wants to be, Brady won't be the starting QB in 2022.

I don't think anyone expects that. It's 2018,2019 and maybe 2020 that are the real concerns.

What is the likelihood that the Patriots win the Super Bowl in 2022 with JG as the starting QB? I'd suggest that an in-his-prime JG offers the 2022 Patriots a better chance of winning a Super Bowl than a 45 year old Brady, as great as Brady is.

Actually Brady would be 46. At that point the question becomes whether the chance of winning with JAG is really any higher than the chance of winning with whoever else (someone equally as unproven) and is that worth pissing away a chance to win more rings with the GOAT in 18-20. To me it's clearly not.

What is the likelihood that the Patriots win the Super Bowl in 2022 with an as-of-right-now-unknown-guy as the starting QB?

NO. IDEA. Because we have no idea who that guy will be. But I bet it's not very good. Finding a really good NFL QB is not easy. As most of these teams are finding out. If JG is let go, and they count on Brady, and he can't play at a high level in 2022, and someone else has to be the QB, I'd think that that guy won't be very good compared to TB or JG.

At this point they are pretty much the same as with JAG. There is no guarantee that JAG is better than "next guy".
It's seems insane to sacrifice 4 years for the sake of what might happen in the 5th.

[quoye]See, the Patriots (Kraft, Belichick) have to think about NOW but also down the road. It's entirely possible that letting JG go and going with TB would be a benefit in 2017 and 2018. I'd say, in fact, that that's a good bet. But at some point in the next few years, it's almost certain that Brady will not be as good. He's an incredible athlete, but he's not superhuman. He's not a cyborg. Avocado ice cream may be great for you, but it's not going to make you superman forever. So BB is thinking about the next great Patriots QB. It may be that he thinks JG is that guy, and that not only will he be that guy in 2022 (and beyond), but that he'll also STILL give them a great shot in 2017-18.[/quote]
There is simply no chance that JAG is better than a healthy Brady any time soon. If Brady had a debilitating injury well that's why they kept him for this year and potentially beyond.

Now don't think for a minute that I'm suggesting that BB will, or should, trade or cut Brady. I think that's about a zero chance of happening. But I also think that BB knows that finding a great QB is not easy, and if he thinks that JG is (or is about to be) a great one, then he may try to find a way to keep them BOTH. It would require some painful and creative roster management, but figuring out what that might take is the point of a separate thread, one that you seemed quite content to contaminate.

Contaminate? Because my opinion is that it's silly to talk about the possibility of keeping a player around without addressing that he won't stay?

Why in the world would garopollo accept a 5th and 6th season as a backup? I can tell you right now that if he would he should be dumped quickly because he isn't the guy to succeed Brady if he is content to sit on the bench when he could be playing.

At the end of the day you have unique and incredible player, the GOAT, who is playing as well as he ever had and is currently the best QB in the NFL. If losing him is the opportunity cost of keeping any other player you let the other player walk.
The correct move for the franchise is to drain every ounce of greatness ou of the GOAT, have an heir ready, keep them as long as feasible and then replace them.

 

[Ring 6]

Brady will not play until 45 and I highly doubt his wife will let him. Can he play til 45 as an almost elite quarterback? Possible. Will it happen? No. Why? His family will end up more important within 2-3 years.

I am so confident that it might even happen after this season. If not, within the next 2.

Based upon absolutely nothing.

 

[StockingAnarchyNumber12]

Based upon absolutely nothing.

I think saying Brady playing to 43 is pretty fair. I could see Brady lasting three more seasons MAX and needing to pick his family over football.

 

[RayClay]

You can find another Gropllo. You can't find another Brady. Brady has shown no sign of slowing down, though that is inevitable.

Also, what do we know about Gman? Next to nothing, when you think about it.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I've watched this week as many posters on this board have essentially said they would be fine with getting rid of Brady to keep Garoppolo while others are basically requesting him to retire and get out of JAGs way.

When belichick benched and cut Kosar, who had nothing left, Browns fans wanted to lynch him.

How can it be that less than 4 months after Brady played the greatest SB ever by a QB (after being the best QB in the NFL all season) to win his record 5th SB fans are almost asking Belichick to dump him?

First of all, I do not count myself among those saying "bye bye Brady" a couple months after he played the best game evah, at the highest level, in a game that should just be called "That's It We Might As Well Stop Playing Now Nothing Can Be Better Than That."

(It'll probably remembered as "The Comeback," and any other game claiming to be "The Comeback" can suck it.)

But secondly, while you're locked into the Kosar era, you've got the wrong QB.

No, New England did not lynch him for letting Drew go. Drew was our Kosar.

The NFL today works as follows.

Loyalty + 2.85 = a cup of starbucks. Vente.

Our interests coincide with Tom's. He wins, we are ecstatic, and we love him. He doesn't get to own us, the fans, even though there is absolutely no way he could have done better by us. We owe him exactly what he's already gotten from us, big old man crushes, our love and support (of course) on the field, because he gets "us" championships, etc. Yeah we owe him all sorts of acknowledgments.

But loyalty?

You want me to cry for Drew too? You want me to tip my hat to Cleveland for wanting to lynch BB over Kosar? Should I be screaming that those bastards in SF had no right to make Joe Montana play for the chiefs, those disloyal bastards?

I'm loyal as a fan of the NE Patriots. Put me between the head coach and the QB and make me theoretically disloyal for toeing that pro-team line? Nah I don't buy that.

The ultimate in "In BB we trust," innit?

I got no "loyalty" to Brady. I am batcrap crazy about him as the Pats' QB. I want everything to be perfect, and for him to retire at 45, and Garappollo to declare it is the highest honor to carry his clipboard, and for us to win the next 5 super bowls, and for TFB to throw 65 TDs and no INT.s every season until 2022. I really do.

But it is also possible that this scenario will not materialize. There are a continuum of other scenarios that are possible, that might actually set up the moment of dread for Patriots fans.

Nice to have recently won the SB in spectacular fashion, because it pushes it back at least this season...

But impugning our "loyalty" to one player, when we're Patriots fans? That's a little much. I've never seen anybody post that they want the Pats to lose... I have seen people saying you have to start to think about the future... those folks sometimes think JG is the future.

I don't see the data necessary to be very sure about that. And I have no data for what they think about this apparent conundrum in Foxborough.

No, I'm not loyal to Tom Brady. Of course, Bridget Moynahan is my sister. JUST KIDDING.

I'm loyal to Tom as long as the Patriots are loyal to Tom. After that, I suppose some talking head on a football game will be enthusing "This team's fanbase hates its coach." Feh.

When it's time, it's time. The team and TFB might not agree on when it's time. Tom's dad said so in print at the end of last season (way to go, minimizing those distractions, Dad LOL).

Does he deserve our loyalty? In any other situation, oh hell yes. If he'd performed like that as my friend, or my business partner, or whatever kind of personal relationship applies, sure.

But this is pro sports. You won't see me picketing the stadium with a sign demanding the heads of everybody from BB up.

The decision's in the team's hands, and Brady's, and here's hoping we don't have to deal with it, that it's all framed as an amicable something or another that lets Tom retire a Patriot etc. etc. etc.

But team's needs vs. This One Guy Who's REALLY Really Really good? Team's needs, every time.

It'll be with certainty that we'll never see his likes again, but the present management/coaching staff is why we saw his likes for the last 15 years. One without the other might not have done it.

So we might be looking at the sunset or the next chapter. Don't look forward to it.

But even in this regard in BB I trust.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Nobody is throwing him under the bus we are realists simply put I'd bet my house a 26 year old Grap is the better move than a 41 year old Brady.
That's 15 years difference
Also watching this draft I saw desperate teams mortgage the future to reach for QBs that weeks prior we're said to be third round fliers, late second at best.
I think Bill saw that too which is one of the many reasons he did not trade Jimmy G
I think you need to rewatch the Arizona and Miami games it's a small sample size but he shredded two very good defenses.
Is smart has a rocket release BB said is tough like a linebacker.
Now you want to give that up to what maybe get another season or two out of Tom who is the greatest QB of all time but between his familys pull and father time you think BB wants to trade Jimmy G then watch Tom decline or decide to retire.
Then frantically look for QB?
Why would he do that when he's already on the roster under our control deeply into our system the team mates it makes no sense to trade him unless BB can say with certainty that Tom will be elite for 5 more years and keep playing regardless of his familys wishes and health?
Now which horse would you bet on if your BB?
Better yet which horse would you bet your and your staffs career and livelihood on?

Tom is the greatest of all time no question a warrior and in increidble shape but he's also whipped and has a family he loves kids to spend time with if the concussion stories happen to be true better reason yet to bow out.
If he doesn't trade him to any team of his liking for fair compensation Tom has earned the right to control his destiny and career if he wishes to still pursue one in the NFL in the future.

Just to be solidly in the middle of the road, did BB say JG was "tough like a linebacker" before or after the injury?

 

[Deus Irae]

How can it be that less than 4 months after Brady played the greatest SB ever by a QB (after being the best QB in the NFL all season) to win his record 5th SB fans are almost asking Belichick to dump him?

Because, paradoxically, many fans have no loyalty.

 

[luuked]

I've watched this week as many posters on this board have essentially said they would be fine with getting rid of Brady to keep Garoppolo while others are basically requesting him to retire and get out of JAGs way.

When belichick benched and cut Kosar, who had nothing left, Browns fans wanted to lynch him.

How can it be that less than 4 months after Brady played the greatest SB ever by a QB (after being the best QB in the NFL all season) to win his record 5th SB fans are almost asking Belichick to dump him?

Because BB is not only in the heads of our opponents but also in the heads of our fanbase with everyone trying to show off that they "get it" while ironically demonstrating the complete opposite.

 

[ivanvamp]

No team with an unproven QB who has played 1 1/2 NFL games had a legitimate shot.



I don't think anyone expects that. It's 2018,2019 and maybe 2020 that are the real concerns.

Actually Brady would be 46. At that point the question becomes whether the chance of winning with JAG is really any higher than the chance of winning with whoever else (someone equally as unproven) and is that worth pissing away a chance to win more rings with the GOAT in 18-20. To me it's clearly not.


At this point they are pretty much the same as with JAG. There is no guarantee that JAG is better than "next guy".
It's seems insane to sacrifice 4 years for the sake of what might happen in the 5th.

See, the Patriots (Kraft, Belichick) have to think about NOW but also down the road. It's entirely possible that letting JG go and going with TB would be a benefit in 2017 and 2018. I'd say, in fact, that that's a good bet. But at some point in the next few years, it's almost certain that Brady will not be as good. He's an incredible athlete, but he's not superhuman. He's not a cyborg. Avocado ice cream may be great for you, but it's not going to make you superman forever. So BB is thinking about the next great Patriots QB. It may be that he thinks JG is that guy, and that not only will he be that guy in 2022 (and beyond), but that he'll also STILL give them a great shot in 2017-18.
There is simply no chance that JAG is better than a healthy Brady any time soon. If Brady had a debilitating injury well that's why they kept him for this year and potentially beyond.



Contaminate? Because my opinion is that it's silly to talk about the possibility of keeping a player around without addressing that he won't stay?

Why in the world would garopollo accept a 5th and 6th season as a backup? I can tell you right now that if he would he should be dumped quickly because he isn't the guy to succeed Brady if he is content to sit on the bench when he could be playing.

At the end of the day you have unique and incredible player, the GOAT, who is playing as well as he ever had and is currently the best QB in the NFL. If losing him is the opportunity cost of keeping any other player you let the other player walk.
The correct move for the franchise is to drain every ounce of greatness ou of the GOAT, have an heir ready, keep them as long as feasible and then replace them.

Yes you contaminated the other thread because that thread was about the possibility (which exists, despite your protestations to the contrary) that BB will try to keep both JG and TB, and to examine what it would mean financially and roster-wise. You seemed to think it was yet another forum for you to express your well-known view that JG will not be around. We get it Andy. We get it.

As for this topic, I am on record as saying that I think they should have traded JG this offseason because I think Brady has a few more outstanding seasons left, and I think that gives them time (and ammo) to solve the "Brady succession" problem.

But because JG was NOT traded, it seems like there's the possibility that BB sees it differently, and that it's worth exploring what kind of reasoning he might have. And I laid out what some aspects of that thinking might be.

As always, none of us has ANY idea what BB is thinking, or what will actually transpire. Given that JG is still here and that BB apparently turned down at least a first round pick for JG, it seems absurd for you to insist that it's silly to think that either Brady might be gone after 2017 (or 2018) or that BB might be looking to find a way to keep both for a few years until Brady retires and JG can take over.

 

[MassPats38]

I haven't read the OP as the prevalent sentiment here, but maybe I missed something.

If the OP suggests when TB is comparable to Kosar in his career progression, i.e., his abilities have declined to such a degree that there are better available options to help the team win, then I disagree with loyalty over logic. Standing by a lesser option out of nostalgia is like riding the barrel over the falls when you can get out and choose the healthier option. Too many stay too long when the glory days have passed them by and become the testament to the aging competitor. In the Seinfeld world, "It's go-time!"

With that said, I would disagree with anyone calling for JAG (or anyone) over Brady now. I don't believe anyone is a better option until I see Brady slip substantially. JAG is a 1.5 game hero against mediocre to crappy teams. Matt Flynn looked better in one game, and we know how he turned out as a starter. The only thing I see right now is safety measures given the relatively unfamiliar country of a QB Brady's age playing in the future. He may end quickly or slowly, but when he ceases to be the better option then his replacement needs to be here and ready to step in. That is football.

 

[ivanvamp]

A really crucial question that seems to not be getting enough play here is this:

The reports were that the Browns kept trying to trade for JG up until the draft, offering at least their #12 pick (and who knows what else). BB did not trade JG - that much we know.

The question is: Why? If the plan is for Brady to play at a high level for 4 more years, and JG simply will NOT, under any circumstances, accept a backup role during that time (as some here have suggested), why in the world would BB *NOT* have traded JG for a first round pick and possibly more?

Why keep him? None of us knows why BB does what he does - we can only speculate. But since we have many reports that the Browns made this offer, and we KNOW for a fact that BB did not trade JG, it's very reasonable to ask WHY. Given that BB (1) is not stupid, and (2) knows the situation better than any of us here, it may be prudent of us to actually try to figure this question out (or at least discuss it). Clearly, there's a reason. Let's try to work on this question.

 

[scout]

"Loyalty" means nothing to BB regardless of whether it's Cleveland or New England. BB's intent will alway be to make the team better and is not influenced by the fans, media, or NFL. I am enjoying the ride.

 

[ChessToCheckers]

IMO, Brady is currently the best player in the NFL, bar none. He beats you before the ball is snapped. His will to win and his ability to play his best when it matters most set him apart. He is dependable, durable, coach-able, and super-prepared. He is cap-friendly. He elevates his teammates. Arguably, he is playing better now than he ever has.

Jimmy G, in the short time we've seen him, looks pretty good and arguably better than any previous Brady backup. I also think that Jacoby Brissett has potential. But are these guys as good as Brady right now? I suspect few on this board really believe that. Even in the short time we've seen them, their durability has been suspect.

When you have the best quarterback in the NFL, you play him. You play him until you have a better alternative. I really don't see Jimmy G winning the starting job over Brady in the time he has left on the Pats.

I believe that when Brady declines, he will retire a Patriot. BB will continue to have good backup insurance policies in place and keep coaching them up until that day arrives.

However it plays out, it should be fun to watch! This Pats team is LOADED! Can't wait for the season to start!

 

[PatsDeb]

Say what now? I'll cry when Tom Brady leaves the Pats, whether by choice or not. I think a lot of people will agree with me. If BB trades him, it will be hard for me to watch the Pats.

 

[ivanvamp]

Let's say BB cuts Brady to make JG the starting QB. Brady then signs with the Jets.

When the Jets play the Patriots, who do you root for: Brady and the Jets, or JG and the Pats?