Do Patriot fans have less loyalty to Tom Brady than Browns fans did to Bernie Kosar

[Huckleberry1]

Just need to make a few things clear before I ask my question. I agree with your basic premise that right now Brady is playing at an MVP caliber level and is without question the best QB on the team for 2017. He has showed ZERO signs of decline and has in fact gotten better in whatever small part of his game (pocket movement, deep ball arc, etc) he chooses to work on. Its inhuman and nobody has deserved the name freak like he does. I believe even at 50 just calling out the protections and not running a bad play Tom could still be a top 20 QB.

All of that said there will come a point in the next couple of years where decline WILL happen. Is that this year? Next year? 3 years? 5 years? Who the he'll knows. Before the draft I was firmly in the trade Grop for any first rounder above 15 camp. I was baffled after multiple reports that #12 and more was offered and turned down. Then we have the schefter report saying Grop is in their long term plans. So my question to you is if Brady is going to be the QB for the next 5 years, as he wants to be and you so clearly think he is capable of, then why wasn't Grop traded and according to as reliable a source as we have is in their long term plans?

My answer is I don't think Brady plays 5 more years. I think he plays 2 and I am not willing to give up a QB they obviously think of so highly for one extra year of Brady. That doesn't make me an idiot or clearly wrong. It means I have a different opinion and don't deserve to be called names for it. It doesn't mean I hate Brady and want to get rid of him it means I am looking at the long term health of the franchise based on the only information I have, Bill's actions and IMO those actions say he thinks the world of Grop. Is he gonna be Brady? Hell no Brady is the GOAT but I do think he will be at least an above average starter for the next 10 years right from day one. He will have 4 years in the system and know the offense intimately something no rookie or second year player can have. That's why I think Bill kept him and with the core of this team i expect the patriots to continue to be yearly playoff contenders on par with Pittsburg green bay Baltimore or Denver.

I didn't see a question in there but I'm
going to guess it is why did Belichick keep Garrapolo instead of trading him? Imo it's because Brissett hasn't shown he is ready to be the back up, they have a championship caliber team, and because next year's draft is much much stronger at the QB position than this one was. If Brissett does take a big step forward they can still move Garrapolo this summer for a first next year, if he doesn't they can hang on to Garrapolo in case Brady gets hurt this season.

As far as Brady goes I don't believe in the cliff at all, and here's why:

Brady's game has never been based upon athleticism, if it were then a sudden deterioration due to age would be far more likely.

Brady's game is based upon his football IQ, which is if anything getting higher and higher each season. That's why Brady told Peter King that it makes no sense for him to stop playing "when I have all the answers to the test." And according to Belichick Brady's greatest strength as a QB is that he always puts them in the best possible play, and that isn't going to change either.

Brady's game is also based upon his accuracy, and given the way he works on his mechanics there is absolutely no reason to believe that his accuracy is going to deteriorate, especially given that it has been getting better with his age.

His arm and his training. People focus on Brady's diet all the time but imo the reason he has actually gotten better athletically as he has gotten older is because he went away from traditional training for football players and went to yoga, core, and pliability training. Instead of becoming bulky and more brittle Brady has become more flexible and his balance and overall athleticism have improved significantly as a result.

The team around him. This the most talented team Brady has ever had around him and it's really really difficult to see how or why his play is going to go downhill over the next few years, and it's also impossible to see the logic in moving on from a player who gives them the best possible chance to win Lombardi's.

Given everything Brady has shown as both a player and athlete in recent seasons there is not one valid argument that anyone has made as to why his play will go downhill any time soon, instead they just keep repeating his age over and over and over, as if that by itself is an argument. It isn't, and it's "moronic"that anyone would try to pass it off as a legitimate argument. Imo Kellermans Cliff doesn't exist, and I'm still waiting for anyone to make a fact based argument as to why Jimmy Garrapolo should replace Brady.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

on the millennial vs joe kerr subject, I wanted to note...

Bizarre deer fight caught on trail camera goes viral

 

[Joker]

 

[Tunescribe]

Shoving Joker into a shopping cart would be a triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. Shoving Joker into a cart may feed your need for instant satisfaction but it's Joker's revenge that will end you.

This is a nonstarter unless you can find a retail establishment providing reinforced shopping carts. Home Depot, maybe?

 

[Joker]

This is a nonstarter unless you can find a retail establishment providing reinforced shopping carts. Home Depot, maybe?

 

[Jackson 2]

As a "seasoned veteran" (read old), my money's on Joker. Simple reason: you can prepare for any type of offense you wish, but there is one type of offense that eludes rational thought and common strategic thinking: batshit insanity. Good luck and enjoyoy your evening...

 

[Huckleberry1]

Nobody is throwing him under the bus we are realists simply put I'd bet my house a 26 year old Grap is the better move than a 41 year old Brady.
That's 15 years difference
Also watching this draft I saw desperate teams mortgage the future to reach for QBs that weeks prior we're said to be third round fliers, late second at best.
I think Bill saw that too which is one of the many reasons he did not trade Jimmy G
I think you need to rewatch the Arizona and Miami games it's a small sample size but he shredded two very good defenses.
Is smart has a rocket release BB said is tough like a linebacker.
Now you want to give that up to what maybe get another season or two out of Tom who is the greatest QB of all time but between his familys pull and father time you think BB wants to trade Jimmy G then watch Tom decline or decide to retire.
Then frantically look for QB?
Why would he do that when he's already on the roster under our control deeply into our system the team mates it makes no sense to trade him unless BB can say with certainty that Tom will be elite for 5 more years and keep playing regardless of his familys wishes and health?
Now which horse would you bet on if your BB?
Better yet which horse would you bet your and your staffs career and livelihood on?

Tom is the greatest of all time no question a warrior and in increidble shape but he's also whipped and has a family he loves kids to spend time with if the concussion stories happen to be true better reason yet to bow out.
If he doesn't trade him to any team of his liking for fair compensation Tom has earned the right to control his destiny and career if he wishes to still pursue one in the NFL in the future.

Thanks for proving the point. The only thing Jimmy Garrapolo has proven is that he can't make it through two games in a row. Brady is the best player in football and getting rid of him to turn the team over to Garrapolo is as stupid as stupid gets. Brady is going to be 41, great argument.

And yes, you are throwing him under the bus, to say otherwise is complete and utter bullsh.t.

 

[Love The Drake]

Look all I care about at the QB position is the team doesn't go to the dark ages.
I can't go from the Goat to a vet stopgap.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Look all I care about at the QB position is the team doesn't go to the dark ages.
I can't go from the Goat to a vet stopgap.

So get rid of the best player in the league for a guy who didn't last two games?

Based upon what?

Go ahead and lay out the case for the deterioration of Brady's game, he's so old that should be really really easy to do.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Hey, we aren't talking sh/t about Brady we just want to get rid of him.......

 

[Huckleberry1]

"Many people". Name them. We're at 41 pages now. Let's hear some names.

ChrisR222, Azpatsfan, PatsfaninVa, to name just a few, there are plenty more, that's why these threads have been going in since the Chiefs game in 2014. It doesn't matter what Brady does on the field they just keep moving the goalposts and saying he's going to be 37,38, 40, and now 41.

 

[Bradyking12]

It WILL end at some point my son. Don't be greedy

Not if JG is next in line, like I said before since teams we're offering 1st round picks for em and we didn't jump speaks wonders on we feel about him

 

[Ring 6]

Yes yes. I was referring to this year in response to Ivan.

As for 2018, there are too many potential variables in play, some we probably don't know about, for fans to reasonably dig in their heels on either side of this "debate."

Under the assumption that brady doesn't fall apart this year it is easy to dig your heels in

 

[Ring 6]

"Many people". Name them. We're at 41 pages now. Let's hear some names.

Read. Its there

 

[Tunescribe]

Under the assumption that brady doesn't fall apart this year it is easy to dig your heels in

And THAT is the problem with this goofy thread. Everyone is "assuming something" waaaaaay before the fact. I'm willing to bet the Brady-Garoppolo "situation" will resolve itself one way or the other before July 2018 without our needless angst. This team, right now, is blessed with two good quarterbacks. Let's enjoy that and let it play out.

 

[pazrul72]

I didn't see a question in there but I'm
going to guess it is why did Belichick keep Garrapolo instead of trading him? Imo it's because Brissett hasn't shown he is ready to be the back up, they have a championship caliber team, and because next year's draft is much much stronger at the QB position than this one was. If Brissett does take a big step forward they can still move Garrapolo this summer for a first next year, if he doesn't they can hang on to Garrapolo in case Brady gets hurt this season.

As far as Brady goes I don't believe in the cliff at all, and here's why:

Brady's game has never been based upon athleticism, if it were then a sudden deterioration due to age would be far more likely.

Brady's game is based upon his football IQ, which is if anything getting higher and higher each season. That's why Brady told Peter King that it makes no sense for him to stop playing "when I have all the answers to the test." And according to Belichick Brady's greatest strength as a QB is that he always puts them in the best possible play, and that isn't going to change either.

Brady's game is also based upon his accuracy, and given the way he works on his mechanics there is absolutely no reason to believe that his accuracy is going to deteriorate, especially given that it has been getting better with his age.

His arm and his training. People focus on Brady's diet all the time but imo the reason he has actually gotten better athletically as he has gotten older is because he went away from traditional training for football players and went to yoga, core, and pliability training. Instead of becoming bulky and more brittle Brady has become more flexible and his balance and overall athleticism have improved significantly as a result.

The team around him. This the most talented team Brady has ever had around him and it's really really difficult to see how or why his play is going to go downhill over the next few years, and it's also impossible to see the logic in moving on from a player who gives them the best possible chance to win Lombardi's.

Given everything Brady has shown as both a player and athlete in recent seasons there is not one valid argument that anyone has made as to why his play will go downhill any time soon, instead they just keep repeating his age over and over and over, as if that by itself is an argument. It isn't, and it's "moronic"that anyone would try to pass it off as a legitimate argument. Imo Kellermans Cliff doesn't exist, and I'm still waiting for anyone to make a fact based argument as to why Jimmy Garrapolo should replace Brady.

Yes it's why did Bill not trade Grop if Brady has shown zero decline and will be an MVP caliber player for the next 5 years. After all 45 is just a number. Before the draft I was completely onboard with your position and wanted Grop traded. We got three new data points in the no trade, schefters report, and giselles comments. All three IMO point to Brady not making it five more years. The first two in particular say to me that while there will obviously be a drop in QB play from GOAT to mere mortal Bill doesn't think it will be the cliff you and Andy keep telling everyone it is. IF, and yes that's a monster IF Grop is say Drew Brees good then with that very solid talented and deep roster I don't think the championship window is closed.

Here's the difference I really just wanted you to think about. I am not SO sure in my opinion to say yours is wrong. You could be right and Brady is the man until 2022 and retires with 7 or 8 rings. Quite frankly nothing could make me happier. However I would not bet the house on that and can also see the senerio where Tom retires after 2018 and the pats are left looking for a starting caliber QB for 15 years like the rest of the AFC east has been. Based on what I have seen, yes it was only 6 quarters but they were an impressive 6 quarters, and more importantly the actions Bill has taken I believe Grop IS a top 10 QB that can win championships. It will just be the one year everything goes right kind instead of the once every 3 years cuz GOAT gonna GOAT.

 

[PYPER]

I'm a loyalty guy. Brady has enabled this franchise to succeed not only with his play on the field but also b/c of his willingness to share the wealth with cap friendly contracts. When a player's career journey reaches a point where it defines the franchise, that franchise owes that player the right to leave on his own terms.

Brady should stay as long as he's the best option on the roster. If Jimmy or another QB is good enough to beat him out...fine but until that day, no way no how should we be even thinking about getting rid of him. This whole conversation is embarrassing. I gotta think all the people who want to ship him out must teenagers or early twenty-somethings who have never experienced fandom beyond the glory of the past 16 years.

I want to see his legacy continue to grow. Let's see Brady do it longer and better than any QB ever has before. I want to see the guy who was once the youngest QB to ever win a SB also become the oldest to do the same. I want to see Brady surpass Mannings career TD and yardage records and then extend them so far out they will never be broken in our lifetimes. Long live the GOAT!

 

[goheels22002]

What's the over/under for the number of posts this thread will have when it mercifully keels over and dies?

 

[PatsFanInVa]

ChrisR222, Azpatsfan, PatsfaninVa, to name just a few, there are plenty more, that's why these threads have been going in since the Chiefs game in 2014. It doesn't matter what Brady does on the field they just keep moving the goalposts and saying he's going to be 37,38, 40, and now 41.

Bullsh1t.

Although I'll admit in '14 I was like "holy crap, maybe we're seeing it happen." I sure wasn't rooting for it to happen, and I was plenty happen that Brady came back stronger.

You'll notice that in the 07 offseason, f'rinstance, they got Moss, Welker, and Stallworth, having whiffed on Jackson and Maroney (although at that point the jury was still out,) and with a Brady in his prime, unwilling and unable to send him out there another year without the firepower to do what they needed to do the previous season. (The rules had also just been changed to favor airing the ball out, although the NFL* phrased it as a "point of emphasis.")

This offseason they did add offseason firepower but they have also made moves (some during last season, some this offseason) to shore up the defense and (apparently) to have more options to pick from in the running game.

I don't think that means "Brady is out the door and soon," I think that means that BB et al. are managing risk. Of course one natural response is that "Yeah, that's why they kept JG, because you don't want to have a Cassel situation in 2017 without someone to play the Cassel role."

Either way they have a choice to make after 17, or after 18 if they want to spend double-digit millions of cap dollars to put the decision off a year. Whoever Kellerman is, if "age is a number" and Brady just gets better this year, I dunno WHO has the balls to show him the door.

OTOH if they're looking at him the way we'd look like a stock, can you think of a better example of buying low and selling high?

The alternative narrative -- that he's the GOAT so he always starts forever and ever until he dies of heart surgery complications at the age of 80 -- is the opposite. You'll end up getting nothing for him.

So don't name me as wanting him gone. Count me as wanting to trust professional risk managers to manage risk.

And stop being simpleminded and looking for an enemy. Risk is never simple. You don't know the future. Neither do I.

I have a friend who urged me to buy Apple stock when that first bowling-bag-sized MacIntosh came out. He turned out to be right. He drank all the Kool-Aid. He knew Steve Jobs dropped acid and Bill Gates didn't. He knew that Steve Jobs learned calligraphy. He told me all the stories of the Apple II and the garage. He bought a few shares of Apple and told me he was going to plow whatever he made into more shares of Apple. We were both in our 20s. Then we lost touch.

If he held on when Jobs was kicked out he still made a tidy little sum, but he's not super rich. If he held on through the Scully years, I am sure he's filthy rich.

On the other hand, if he decided he has a crystal ball, fell in love with some Dot Com entrepreneur in the 90s, and loaded up on Enron or something, not so much.

People who brag about their smart stock choices aren't usually keeping a moving balance sheet and tracking against the moving average of a broad basket of stocks. They brag and brag, note that they just made 40K by taking a big risk on a stock that doubled, buy a sweet new ride, and disregard the other 40K of risk they have hanging out there (then dot-commiserate when a market or a stock tanks).

Just a more tangible example of how risk works. Of course nobody on the board has anything but emotional stock in Brady. And of all the emotional stockholders, I think that you've bought in up to the eyeballs.

Great bet, to start out with. We're lucky - we all got to buy low in 2001. If Brady were a stock, this would be the wrong time to re-invest. The quibbling is over a year or two or three here or there, not on whether the stock will tank.

I am all for him making it to 45 with 5 more SB rings in a Patriots uniform. And by the way in that Chiefs game season, you really think hearing/seeing "this might be the end for Brady" had no effect on him?

If you think a fan like me is lining up at that door ready to kick TFB through, well, that's bullsh1t. You're making up an imaginary me and sticking him into your cookie cutter of "brady hating" Pats fans. But if Brady responds to such opinions by proving them wrong... you want me at that door. You need me at that door.

 

[scout]

ChrisR222, Azpatsfan, PatsfaninVa, to name just a few, there are plenty more, that's why these threads have been going in since the Chiefs game in 2014. It doesn't matter what Brady does on the field they just keep moving the goalposts and saying he's going to be 37,38, 40, and now 41.

I'm very disappointed I didn't make your list.