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Do Patriot fans have less loyalty to Tom Brady than Browns fans did to Bernie Kosar


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You have the GOAT who is playing near his peak.
Any future decisions revolve around maximizing what you get from Brady not maximizing what you get from a potential replacement.


Please type this sentence up on team stationery and circulate it to the Patriots coaching staff, including Bill Belichick. It's all or nothing, a toggle switch not a slider, checkers not chess.

A binary choice.

If the team weighs probability rather than views every question as a binary choice, there is a chance that they will disobey your edict ordering the universe via bulletin board posts. We can't have that.

At this point 2 years of Brady plus 4 of next man up is better than a 6 year contract of JAG as the potential replacement.
If Brady falls apart in 2017 that may change (which is the reason for no trade this off season btw).

Re: "No trade in the offseason":
You get "Brady suddenly declines" insurance, "Brady gets injured insurance," etc. However you also get the March 2018 decision. With the trade you get Brissett at backup. We could have gotten significant value in the 2017 draft or free agency for the rights to Garapollo.

I think it's reasonable to conclude that "any old backup" is not what he is considered, or else Brissett would be the "next man up," we'd walk away with some value while he's under contract, etc. He is considered a promising enough talent - even as insurance - that you'll give up tangible value to keep him around.

I see very little chance of that happening.
So in March of 2018 when a decision had to be made, it looks to be a no brainer.

If you're a carpenter everything looks like a nail. I don't know what that makes you if everything looks like a no brainer.
 
Addendum: Maybe a brain surgeon? :)
 

Please type this sentence up on team stationery and circulate it to the Patriots coaching staff, including Bill Belichick. It's all or nothing, a toggle switch not a slider, checkers not chess.

A binary choice.

If the team weighs probability rather than views every question as a binary choice, there is a chance that they will disobey your edict ordering the universe via bulletin board posts. We can't have that.
I don't have to tell belichick he knows.

Not sure how you determine that getting everything you can out of the GOAT is a binary decision but I'm sure it's just a case if binary being a word you thought would be cool to post so you chucked it in there.



Re: "No trade in the offseason":
You get "Brady suddenly declines" insurance, "Brady gets injured insurance," etc. However you also get the March 2018 decision. With the trade you get Brissett at backup. We could have gotten significant value in the 2017 draft or free agency for the rights to Garapollo.
Perhaps but you can still tag and trade him next year.

I think it's reasonable to conclude that "any old backup" is not what he is considered, or else Brissett would be the "next man up," we'd walk away with some value while he's under contract, etc. He is considered a promising enough talent - even as insurance - that you'll give up tangible value to keep him around.
He is the current backup. He is at this point the best option as insurance. That is why he is still here.



If you're a carpenter everything looks like a nail. I don't know what that makes you if everything looks like a no brainer.
Everything isn't a no brainer. Keeping tom Brady when he is near his peak of play is.
 
I don't have to tell belichick he knows.

Not sure how you determine that getting everything you can out of the GOAT is a binary decision but I'm sure it's just a case if binary being a word you thought would be cool to post so you chucked it in there.

Okay, that's the difference between you and me, Andy. I am not Bill Belichick. You are. Naturally decisions are no-brainers, because you're the guy making the decisions for the team. I'm not wasting time on educating you on either vocabulary or logic at this point, as I'd be buying ink, pixels, what have you by the barrel.

Quick posts. Shallow discussions. Easy answers. That's the common denominator you want, fine.

I don't know why I see coaches going batsh1t over who to pick in the 5th round at their spot in the draft every year. They make way too much out of these things. But then, only the Pats have access to you.
 
There's no "unthinkable" in pro sports. I really hope you guys are right and I'm just Devil's-advocating. I hope he gets number 6 and goes out on top, or number 8, or whatever, and we've just drafted a guy 10 times better than JG (when all is said and done). That way the Pats could have figured out everything perfectly, Brady could have spent his whole career here, the Pats would have those SBs (and Brady would too), etc.

All the rest is "what if interests align otherwise."

Maybe I am emphasizing known incentives too much, and putting too little emphasis on Brady's internal state, of which I have little evidence. Perhaps he has an intrinsic motivation to write the storybook ending.

Even so we're dependent on the Pats evaluating Garappolo as "average" taking together injuries, performance, potential, etc. I treat their true evaluation of JG as both unknown and fluid over the next year. If we declare "he sucks" we're golden. The storybook ending can happen, just with another heir apparent. If they really think they've got something, the decision window closes sooner than we'd like.

I'm rooting for whatever BB decides on this one.
I saw Brady once at a store in Chestnut Hill. As great as he is and as much as I appreciate all he's done, I didn't gawk or run over to him like a few dopes did.

In the end, he puts on his pants the same way the rest of us do and he's not above anyone else outside of football.

Having said that, I also know he likes his privacy. If it was Gronk, I may have said something or fist bumped him
 
Okay, that's the difference between you and me, Andy. I am not Bill Belichick. You are. Naturally decisions are no-brainers, because you're the guy making the decisions for the team. I'm not wasting time on educating you on either vocabulary or logic at this point, as I'd be buying ink, pixels, what have you by the barrel.

Quick posts. Shallow discussions. Easy answers. That's the common denominator you want, fine.

I don't know why I see coaches going batsh1t over who to pick in the 5th round at their spot in the draft every year. They make way too much out of these things. But then, only the Pats have access to you.
For some of us, this is a logic-based discussion while for some others, it's emotion-based

Despite the fact emotion has no place in the discussion. Must be the "OMG!" crowd
 
For some of us, this is a logic-based discussion while for some others, it's emotion-based

Despite the fact emotion has no place in the discussion. Must be the "OMG!" crowd

Andy's arguments are based on logic he just happens to be steadfastly rooted to it.

'Brady is playing at an elite level. JG has played one and a half games. Brady is without question the guy who should start the season. '

That's the basis of his argument.

If Brady continues to play at an elite level why would you replace him with an unproven albeit promising backup? One can get you to the SB while the other can get you through almost two regular season games.

IMO, it is the JG supporters who are using emotional based opinions because it is they that "feel" or "think" JG is the future.
 
That's an excellent point (also in the realm of the internal state of the actors, which we can only even putatively evaluate by weighing their known objective "moves.")

But it could be a "thing" just as much as it could be a "thing" that Brady has a huge desire to retire a Patriot, play for league min. if necessary, etc.

I bet he does have a desire to retire a Patriot. He also said he'd play until "he sucks" - his words. That's why I think he will know when it's "time" and so will the rest of us.

I call bullsh1t. If the Pats and Brady have to part I hope it's amicable, and I think that all players on the board value professionalism and minimization of distractions enough for that to happen. But no, it doesn't minimize what TFB has done for us if he ends up elsewhere. Even Favrevruh, who specifically wanted to play for the arch-rival Vikings, is once again a fixture in the GB pantheon by now.
No actually I was talking about BB not Brady. If BB pushes Brady out the door because he wants to prove he can win without him then that would be disappointing and run against the philosophy and mindset he brought here in 2000. That's what I meant.

I agree on all counts. That's why I constantly temper my thoughts on JG. You never want to wish instead of plan. Scratch the surface and there are a lot of ways a coach could say, meh, some potential but better be ready to win with defense and a serviceable "Dilfer" level QB.

It's really hard to see a Dilfer winning today. Different league than it was back then. Sure a broken down Forehead won in 2015 but his cerebral game never left like his physical game did. I don't think JG has that part of the game down pat just yet.

Plus the Broncos had a sick defense. I love our D but I don't believe they're at that level just yet.

If that's their evaluation, time pressure disappears, which eases us into the 2018 and beyond time frame.

The whole 2018 "drop dead" date is premised on thinking that BB thinks that JG is the heir apparent. That is an unknown to me. You're right about his 6 quarters of NFL experience - that's a small amount to bet the farm on. Of course the Pats staff sees him in practice, etc., and are much better at talent evaluation than anybody here.

I think that is precisely the reason why the Pats were unable to trade him. 6 quarters was all any other team had to look at him. They saw a guy that was very good with no tape on him but could not finish what he was asked to do. Maybe there was a second rounder offer out there but I will never believe that there was an offer out there for a first rounder. No team would do that imo. There was at least nothing that trumped the Pats need for a good solid insurance for the GOAT if something bad happened this year.

You can't coach a guy out of being injury-prone, although you can condition him out of some injuries. You can coach a guy out of being sack-prone. I would imagine they're working on that, to the extent one can work on it. You know, just in case... if it's okay to even say that they might spare a thought to improving weaknesses in a backup, where TFB is concerned.

Yep. Also if you believe reports that the team expected JG to be ready vs BUF this year and at the last minute he was unable to go - that is very concerning to me as far as his durability. Brissett should have never played that game and the results were predictable.
 
Okay, that's the difference between you and me, Andy. I am not Bill Belichick. You are. Naturally decisions are no-brainers, because you're the guy making the decisions for the team. I'm not wasting time on educating you on either vocabulary or logic at this point, as I'd be buying ink, pixels, what have you by the barrel.
Sorry Mr Arrogant, there is nothing you can educate me in except using many words to say nothing.

Quick posts. Shallow discussions. Easy answers. That's the common denominator you want, fine.

I have discussed in great detail my opinions on this.
You say "BB will decide".
Talk about shallow discussions and easy answers.

I don't know why I see coaches going batsh1t over who to pick in the 5th round at their spot in the draft every year. They make way too much out of these things. But then, only the Pats have access to you.
I'm sorry, snowflake, I sounds like I made you cry.
 
Andy's arguments are based on logic he just happens to be steadfastly rooted to it.

'Brady is playing at an elite level. JG has played one and a half games. Brady is without question the guy who should start the season. '

That's the basis of his argument.

If Brady continues to play at an elite level why would you replace him with an unproven albeit promising backup? One can get you to the SB while the other can get you through almost two regular season games.

IMO, it is the JG supporters who are using emotional based opinions because it is they that "feel" or "think" JG is the future.
Yes my argument has clearly been as if now it would be moronic to get rid of Brady. I suspect the same will be true in a year because I don't expect him to fall apart this season.
To have the discussion today you can only basebit on where you expect Brady to be in one year and I expect little to have changed.
It's pretty simple actually.
 
For some of us, this is a logic-based discussion while for some others, it's emotion-based

Despite the fact emotion has no place in the discussion. Must be the "OMG!" crowd
I see no one in this thread acting on emotion. Certainly not me.
 
Andy's arguments are based on logic he just happens to be steadfastly rooted to it.

'Brady is playing at an elite level. JG has played one and a half games. Brady is without question the guy who should start the season. '

That's the basis of his argument.

If Brady continues to play at an elite level why would you replace him with an unproven albeit promising backup? One can get you to the SB while the other can get you through almost two regular season games.

IMO, it is the JG supporters who are using emotional based opinions because it is they that "feel" or "think" JG is the future.
I don't think any Jimmy G supporters exist...yet. It's more about the philosophy of risk. Or taking one approach vs another Tony

I don't see any sides other than different ways we'd like our winning tradition to continue

One thing is for sure (I think) and that's Belichick's mind. I don't think there's any doubt he'll do what he believes is best for the team.

And we'll have no choice other than to accept his decision

Why not just take the "In Bill we trust" attitude and leave this discussion behind?

In my opinion, I couldn't care less if we're better or worse fans than in some other city. It's not even relevant to anything.

And honestly, no one has a right to question Patriot fan loyalty to Brady
 
Andy's arguments are based on logic he just happens to be steadfastly rooted to it.

'Brady is playing at an elite level. JG has played one and a half games. Brady is without question the guy who should start the season. '

That's the basis of his argument.

If Brady continues to play at an elite level why would you replace him with an unproven albeit promising backup? One can get you to the SB while the other can get you through almost two regular season games.

IMO, it is the JG supporters who are using emotional based opinions because it is they that "feel" or "think" JG is the future.

Right on the money. Not only is Brady elite but he is by all accounts the best player in football, and he has gotten better over the past three seasons. At some point people should realize and recognize that performance is far more important than age is, and you do not get rid of the best player in football for an unproven back up. And what is truly remarkable is that everyone in and around football realizes the Patriots have the best and most important player in the league and its Patriot fans who are casting doubt on him despite his actual performance. Every other fan base in football wants him to retire so the dynasty will be over and some Patriot fans want him to accommodate them. Screw that, I want him to play as long as he's great and for the dynasty to continue to rack up Lombardi's and leave no doubt as to who the greatest player, coach, and franchise is. Jimmy Garrapolo could end up being a good player but he is never going to be Tom Brady, and that's not a knock on him because no one is. I can't fathom why any Patriot fan would want this run to end, it makes absolutely no sense at all.
 
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There have actually been fans here who said that the Patriots should go to Garrapolo after 2017 because he could be Tony Romo.

Seriously

That's a compelling argument.
 
As greatness goes the Patriots are on the precipice of establishing themselves as the greatest franchise in league history, and now that Brady and Belichick have 5 rings that's what matters most to me as a fan. #6 is not a lock , no championship ever is, but their chances of adding another Lombardi this season, as well as the 2018 season will give them an opportunity to distance themselves from Noll's Steeler's, Landry's Cowboy's, and the Bill Walsh 49er's as the greatest team in history. If Brady and Belichick win #6 they become without argument the greatest team in history, and #7 is not a fantasy by any means as they are in excellent shape on contracts, personal, and the cap..
 
Andy's arguments are based on logic he just happens to be steadfastly rooted to it.

'Brady is playing at an elite level. JG has played one and a half games. Brady is without question the guy who should start the season. '

I agree with every one of these points, and the conclusion that you rightly complete the series with. However, the conclusion Andy reaches is "Brady should therefore start every season ever." (Actually proud that I got Andy to take 2027 off the table).

That's the basis of his argument.

If Brady continues to play at an elite level why would you replace him with an unproven albeit promising backup? One can get you to the SB while the other can get you through almost two regular season games.

IMO, it is the JG supporters who are using emotional based opinions because it is they that "feel" or "think" JG is the future.

I don't think there are JG supporters here. There are Patriots supporters and there are people trying to build a shrine to a player, not a football team. I've got no real desire to support JG, or support a transition to JG, specifically. Liked what I saw, he went down, now he's got a strain in training camp, I'm like "oh hell, he might be one of those."

JG just becomes representative of the future divergence of interests between the Patriots and Brady because his number is up first, and because he shows promise. This is really about Brady. (And apparently some guy called Kellerman).

There's an inflection point in 2018 due to two contracts; and you might buy another year to waffle by tagging Garapollo. That's why we're determining JG's value at all. And the question isn't "Is he better than Brady?" It's "What's the total estimated value of JG vs. next guy up vs. TFB for the indefinite future."

Lots of mad love for Brady. 2 interceptions. Granted, that's in 12 games. But who does that? (You can say "3 interceptions if he had a full season" to compensate, and promote his 28 TDs to 35, amortized.) That was 2016.

I will keep Brady for the 2016 season every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Now comes 2017. Then 2018. Then 2019. Etc. Then comes 2020-22, the Andy Johnson range. WHY???? He just had a historically great season in 2016! If he was better in '16 than '15, shouldn't he be better in '17 than '16, and much better by 2020 than 2017?

For my part I've said from the beginning that it's not about what happened in 2016 and it's only tangentially related to Brady's "heir apparent."

People hemmed and hawed about the GOAT argument based on rings, until that was put to rest in epic fashion. Well, let's put that to rest too but properly recount just how GOATy the GOAT is. Since 2007 inclusive, just after they changed the game to get Manning a ring, Brady's had 5 seasons with ratings over 100, 3 of them over 110. Montana had 2 his whole career. Montana never played a full season with fewer than 7 interceptions - by the way, that 7 was against 13 TDs, playing with the Chiefs. He also played only 11 games that year, fwiw. Brady's thrown 7 int.s or fewer for three regular seasons, in each case doubling that number of TDs, in 2 out of 3 cases nearly tripling it.

It's comparing across eras, but the comparisons are pretty flattering to Tom.

As a snapshot, Brady's never had a better year than 2016 (if we forget that it was a shortened season)...and come to think of it, I don't know who has. It's really an incredible body of work within the incredible body of work that Brady's career has been.

But it does not stand to reason that TFB has just gotten a glimpse of what he could be by age 49.

We haven't seen 2017 yet. If he comes back with an improvement over 2016, or anything like a semblance of 2016, that's one thing. If he takes a step back, that's another thing. If there's a "small decline" with the upgrade in talent, that's a third thing. And if there's a really sub-par year, that's yet another thing.

The certainties are the contracts and the "just a number" representing TFB's age.

I do not know the answer in the gray areas. That's all I've ever asserted.

On the emotional side we have claims of clairvoyance into the 2017 and 2018 results, Brady's longevity, etc., and claims that Garapollo is not judged as anything special in Foxborough (whatever you and I think).

The game plan seems to be "Eff the future, Brady plays whether that's best for the team or not." I'm not old enough for that.

One certainty is that one talent TFB does not have is the ability to objectively judge his own future worth to the team. This is because he is a human being not a fugging robot. That's not his job. So if TFB says he's going to play until he's 45 or until he sucks, fine, but it might not be in NE.
 
Sorry Mr Arrogant, there is nothing you can educate me in except using many words to say nothing.



I have discussed in great detail my opinions on this.
You say "BB will decide".
Talk about shallow discussions and easy answers.


I'm sorry, snowflake, I sounds like I made you cry.
'

So far you've directly addressed me as "snowflake" and "Mr. Arrogant," listed me among a purely theoretical grouping of "morons" who want an outcome that I have not said I want, and said that it "sounds like" you made me cry.

Yeah I'm thinking we've identified our emotional posters.

No big long post. Tick tock.
 
'

So far you've directly addressed me as "snowflake" and "Mr. Arrogant," listed me among a purely theoretical grouping of "morons" who want an outcome that I have not said I want, and said that it "sounds like" you made me cry.

Yeah I'm thinking we've identified our emotional posters.

No big long post. Tick tock.
I didn't call you a moron but I stand by the other comments.
 
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