Do Patriot fans have less loyalty to Tom Brady than Browns fans did to Bernie Kosar

[Ivan]

Ivan and Andy assume this is the Brady Fans Forum not the Patriots Fans blog. Or at least they act that way. They are free to open their own Brady f

This coming from a guy who trashes Brady's Super Bowl performance and tries to use it as evidence that it's time for Jimmy Six Quarters.

 

[Ivan]

You copiously spam the board with caricatures of what you wish others had said.

I consider the interests of the principals and ponder the nature of future risk/opportunity.

To this board's credit, both approaches appear to draw responses.

Now, answer the question, unless you are afraid to.

Do you believe that Brady will be our starter in 2022?

Ill ignore your Charles Krauthammer impressions and answer that question. I take Brady at his word and believe he will play into his mid forties, he could retire anywhere between 2020 and 2022. I doubt he will there in 2022 and think his successor will be drafted in the next year or two. I would like to see Belichick deal Garrapolo to Cleveland this August for their first next year and see the Patriots use that pick to draft his successor, I doubt we will see much if any drop off in his game and believe he will go out on his own terms. I think the cliff argument is complete bullsh.t and those using it do so because they don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[PatriotsReign]

The awesome aspect of this discussion is that whatever is going to happen, will happen regardless of our opinions

The question will be, how we handle whatever happens?

I think I'll be ok with whatever. Maybe it's because of my age combined with the fact I've been blessed as a New England/Boston sports fan. Especially the past 17 years or so.

 

[Ivan]

Your arguments are just humorously full of insane BS.

"To this point there's only a few athletes in all of pro sports that I would say with no doubt in my mind that HGH is not something they'd get into if it kept them at the peak of their game. Brady is one of them. But I've been wrong about this sort of thing before (thinking of Manny here as well as Lance Armstrong) so no matter who the pro athlete is you just can't shake that tiny sliver of doubt."

So are you admitting Brady is playing at a high level but now attribute it to possible HGH use?

"I can't even blame the people who are in denial. It's like a little kid who is sitting there screaming that the ride isn't over despite the fact that the machine has stopped and everyone else is getting out. We're having so much fun we don't want it to end. But the ride is going to end soon whether we like it or not, and I really hope nobody in the franchise is in this kind of denial about it."

Denial of what? That Brady is still playing at a high level? WTF are you talking about? What is your argument?

The argument is or should be would you rather or not cut bait with Brady while still playing at a high level before losing JG to FA. That's the argument. It has nothing to do with HGH, it has nothing to do with a roller coaster analogy and it has nothing to do with denial because Brady is still playing at an elite level. Who denies that? You?

If Brady has another great year does he start the 2018 season? Of course he does. Why wouldn't he?

If Brady has a great 2018 season does he start the 2019 season? Woooooo what will you do then? Maybe you could make up a ferris wheel analogy or two.

"Father time is no stranger to the ferris wheel in the sky. It's like a fat dude named Cliff in a shaky cart ......you never know when that rusty bolt is going to snap"

No one will ever live up to their username the way Simpleton does.

I'm guessing he thinks Brady used HGH to drop muscle mass and become more lean.

 

[Ivan]

You copiously spam the board with caricatures of what you wish others had said.

I consider the interests of the principals and ponder the nature of future risk/opportunity.

To this board's credit, both approaches appear to draw responses.

Now, answer the question, unless you are afraid to.

Do you believe that Brady will be our starter in 2022?

Answered

Now it's your turn. Will Brady be the Patriots QB in 2018 and should they get rid of Brady for Garrapolo?

In less than 50,000 words, please.

 

[aluminum seats]

I have no confidence whatsoever that JG will ever play..even at a serviceable level

He's already done that.

I would like to see Belichick deal Garrapolo to Cleveland this August for their first next year

Many wanted to see a trade. The fact that he wasn't traded is what drives a lot of the conversation. (Conversation, btw, that you don't have to be so damn furious about all the time.)

 

[Ivan]

He's already done that.



Many wanted to see a trade. The fact that he wasn't traded is what drives a lot of the conversation. (Conversation, btw, that you don't have to be so damn furious about all the time.)

I'm not furious by any sense, I am sick of people using Brady's age instead of his play to argue for Garrapolo. This has been going on since October 2014 and at no time have those arguing for Garrapolo conceded that Brady's play is making their argument moot, instead they just keep moving the goalposts and insisting they are right. Brady has won this team 2 more Lombardi's and he has been the best player in football since the debate reared its ugly head again after the Chefs game, and he has proven the doubters wrong by every conceivable measure, the doubters should accept that he has proven them completely wrong and stop running their pie holes about how he almost cost them the Super Bowl.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Answered

Now it's your turn. Will Brady be the Patriots QB in 2018 and should they get rid of Brady for Garrapolo?

In less than 50,000 words, please.

Tl; dr

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Answered

Now it's your turn. Will Brady be the Patriots QB in 2018 and should they get rid of Brady for Garrapolo?

In less than 50,000 words, please.

I should really have just left it at that.

Above, you say you think that he will leave somewhere between 2020 and 2022 (going by memory, no intent to twist your words). That's a perfectly good position.

In 2018, barring unforeseen circumstances, I'd keep and start Brady. But I am not Bill Belichick.

I could see using the franchise on JG if they're really stuck on him and they want to push this off yet another year. If they do that, I would look for a dose of "it's Brady's job to lose" during 2018 camp. But I don't think they're wasting that cap space and I don't think TFB is losing that competition. So yes, I'd count that as an unforeseen circumstance. I am sure you have to say something about somebody called "Kellerman" to discuss it.

Do you believe that JG is a poor-to-average QB? Or do you place him in the "good, but bad timing" category?

I put him at "good, but possibly fragile." Once again, the timing is Belichick's lookout.

However, I would not be shocked out of my skull if the Pats parted ways with Brady, particularly after a "sub-par" season (which for Brady goes all the way to "lost AFC championship game" or possibly even "won AFCG, lost in SB.")

 

[Ring 6]

I should really have just left it at that.

Above, you say you think that he will leave somewhere between 2020 and 2022 (going by memory, no intent to twist your words). That's a perfectly good position.

In 2018, barring unforeseen circumstances, I'd keep and start Brady. But I am not Bill Belichick.

I could see using the franchise on JG if they're really stuck on him and they want to push this off yet another year. If they do that, I would look for a dose of "it's Brady's job to lose" during 2018 camp. But I don't think they're wasting that cap space and I don't think TFB is losing that competition. So yes, I'd count that as an unforeseen circumstance. I am sure you have to say something about somebody called "Kellerman" to discuss it.

Do you believe that JG is a poor-to-average QB? Or do you place him in the "good, but bad timing" category?

I put him at "good, but possibly fragile." Once again, the timing is Belichick's lookout.

However, I would not be shocked out of my skull if the Pats parted ways with Brady, particularly after a "sub-par" season (which for Brady goes all the way to "lost AFC championship game" or possibly even "won AFCG, lost in SB.")

Why would lost afccg or lost SB be a subpar season? For anyone.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Why would lost afccg or lost SB be a subpar season? For anyone.

Because, Tom Brady.

If they think it's time in Foxboro, it would be a much more acrimonious parting to say "thanks for another trophy, see ya." It would be such a straightforward statement of "I don't care where you are and what you're capable of, I can guess where you're gonna be."

Perhaps a lost SB is a stretch. On average, he "only" wins the SB every third year. He plays in the SB roughly every other year. For Brady to date, missing the AFCCG is "sub-par," as he's taken the team there 9 times out of 15. So let's call making the AFCCG the over-under.

How many times have we said in this thread "...who just won the Super Bowl...?"

Immediate proximity to another SB win makes the calculus very difficult; after all, winning is the goal and parting ways with him at the top of his game means you are purely relying on the breakdown of all other quarterbacks at that age to make your decision.

But I exaggerated for effect to an extent. On the down side, this isn't a guy who goes 10-6, goes one and done in the playoffs, and gets a big fat raise because he's going to take that next step any minute now. If we see an 8-8 season, that's an unprecedented decline. It's hard to see 8-8 out of Brady coupled with a grand statement of "He's our QB into the foreseeable future, good luck to Jimmy, there's only so much room at the top."

I don't think Garappolo is a very secure choice of "next man up" based on that little problem of having to be on the field to play. Nobody here thinks that JG or any other QB is Brady. The question is whether BB thinks he can build around JG, or whether he considers him an expendable JAG. His moves to date suggest that he does not consider JG a JAG.

Around here I see people occasionally talking about how the "real" next guy is Jacoby Brissett, but I haven't seen anything impressive out of that guy.

 

[PatriotsReign]

He's already done that.



Many wanted to see a trade. The fact that he wasn't traded is what drives a lot of the conversation. (Conversation, btw, that you don't have to be so damn furious about all the time.)

There is absolutely NOTHING about this conversation to get angry about.

It's bizarre the way some react to these things

 

[Clonamery]

Because, Tom Brady.

If they think it's time in Foxboro, it would be a much more acrimonious parting to say "thanks for another trophy, see ya." It would be such a straightforward statement of "I don't care where you are and what you're capable of, I can guess where you're gonna be."

Perhaps a lost SB is a stretch. On average, he "only" wins the SB every third year. He plays in the SB roughly every other year. For Brady to date, missing the AFCCG is "sub-par," as he's taken the team there 9 times out of 15. So let's call making the AFCCG the over-under.

How many times have we said in this thread "...who just won the Super Bowl...?"

Immediate proximity to another SB win makes the calculus very difficult; after all, winning is the goal and parting ways with him at the top of his game means you are purely relying on the breakdown of all other quarterbacks at that age to make your decision.

But I exaggerated for effect to an extent. On the down side, this isn't a guy who goes 10-6, goes one and done in the playoffs, and gets a big fat raise because he's going to take that next step any minute now. If we see an 8-8 season, that's an unprecedented decline. It's hard to see 8-8 out of Brady coupled with a grand statement of "He's our QB into the foreseeable future, good luck to Jimmy, there's only so much room at the top."

I don't think Garappolo is a very secure choice of "next man up" based on that little problem of having to be on the field to play. Nobody here thinks that JG or any other QB is Brady. The question is whether BB thinks he can build around JG, or whether he considers him an expendable JAG. His moves to date suggest that he does not consider JG a JAG.

Around here I see people occasionally talking about how the "real" next guy is Jacoby Brissett, but I haven't seen anything impressive out of that guy.

BB will let TB play as long as TB wants to. TB is the consummate professional and teammate...he's his own harshest critic. He will walk away when he sees the the mighty Cliff of Kellerman or if BB whispers in his ear. There will be no acrimony, only respect for the greater good of the team.

The rest of the drama is just the great BB putting the best roster together to encounter as many probabilities as possible. JG is great value on a SB competitive team....why risk that if TB were to get hurt? Even Cleveland could not equate his value to the Patriots.

Now, see, there's no need to run out and get more ink for your quill.

 

[sb1]

I should really have just left it at that.

Above, you say you think that he will leave somewhere between 2020 and 2022 (going by memory, no intent to twist your words). That's a perfectly good position.

In 2018, barring unforeseen circumstances, I'd keep and start Brady. But I am not Bill Belichick.

I could see using the franchise on JG if they're really stuck on him and they want to push this off yet another year. If they do that, I would look for a dose of "it's Brady's job to lose" during 2018 camp. But I don't think they're wasting that cap space and I don't think TFB is losing that competition. So yes, I'd count that as an unforeseen circumstance. I am sure you have to say something about somebody called "Kellerman" to discuss it.

Do you believe that JG is a poor-to-average QB? Or do you place him in the "good, but bad timing" category?

I put him at "good, but possibly fragile." Once again, the timing is Belichick's lookout.

However, I would not be shocked out of my skull if the Pats parted ways with Brady, particularly after a "sub-par" season (which for Brady goes all the way to "lost AFC championship game" or possibly even "won AFCG, lost in SB.")

I doubt the Pats would ever trade Brady. There is no market for him imo, unless you count Denver or the Jets who would do anything to get their name all over the NY papers. I can't see the first happening and and pigs will fly in the latter case.

I really believe Tom will walk away at the right time. Legacy matters to him and I think he saw what Forehead looked like in 2015 and knows that would put a dent in his legacy. I also think we will hear a vibe from the team that they know Tom is ready to move on. Right now I don't hear any such thing.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

BB will let TB play as long as TB wants to. TB is the consummate professional and teammate...he's his own harshest critic. He will walk away when he sees the the mighty Cliff of Kellerman or if BB whispers in his ear. There will be no acrimony, only respect for the greater good of the team.

The rest of the drama is just the great BB putting the best roster together to encounter as many probabilities as possible. JG is great value on a SB competitive team....why risk that if TB were to get hurt? Even Cleveland could not equate his value to the Patriots.

Now, see, there's no need to run out and get more ink for your quill.

Forgive me, but at the point that Tom does not think he sucks, and BB thinks future returns improve by moving on from Brady, their interests diverge. If the timing of this point is perfect, TFB retires a Patriot. If not, I don't think it's going to be a whisper in the ear scenario. I also don't think it'll be an angry knock-down drag-out in the media.

Ultimately it's just a question of their interests converging or diverging.

One note, and sorry if this counts as buying ink by the barrel: Since Brady says he'll play until he sucks, are you invoking the infamous Kellerman Cliff? (Christ, people say this like it's a thing, like "Tommy John surgery" or something) - Aren't you just invoking it and saying when Brady falls off it, that's the best time to agree for him to depart or whisper in his ear?

Seems like it would minimize Brady's trade value and disregard the quality of available replacement personnel.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I doubt the Pats would ever trade Brady. There is no market for him imo, unless you count Denver or the Jets who would do anything to get their name all over the NY papers. I can't see the first happening and and pigs will fly in the latter case.

I really believe Tom will walk away at the right time. Legacy matters to him and I think he saw what Forehead looked like in 2015 and knows that would put a dent in his legacy. I also think we will hear a vibe from the team that they know Tom is ready to move on. Right now I don't hear any such thing.

There's no "unthinkable" in pro sports. I really hope you guys are right and I'm just Devil's-advocating. I hope he gets number 6 and goes out on top, or number 8, or whatever, and we've just drafted a guy 10 times better than JG (when all is said and done). That way the Pats could have figured out everything perfectly, Brady could have spent his whole career here, the Pats would have those SBs (and Brady would too), etc.

All the rest is "what if interests align otherwise."

Maybe I am emphasizing known incentives too much, and putting too little emphasis on Brady's internal state, of which I have little evidence. Perhaps he has an intrinsic motivation to write the storybook ending.

Even so we're dependent on the Pats evaluating Garappolo as "average" taking together injuries, performance, potential, etc. I treat their true evaluation of JG as both unknown and fluid over the next year. If we declare "he sucks" we're golden. The storybook ending can happen, just with another heir apparent. If they really think they've got something, the decision window closes sooner than we'd like.

I'm rooting for whatever BB decides on this one.

 

[Ring 6]

Forgive me, but at the point that Tom does not think he sucks, and BB thinks future returns improve by moving on from Brady, their interests diverge. If the timing of this point is perfect, TFB retires a Patriot. If not, I don't think it's going to be a whisper in the ear scenario. I also don't think it'll be an angry knock-down drag-out in the media.

Ultimately it's just a question of their interests converging or diverging.

One note, and sorry if this counts as buying ink by the barrel: Since Brady says he'll play until he sucks, are you invoking the infamous Kellerman Cliff? (Christ, people say this like it's a thing, like "Tommy John surgery" or something) - Aren't you just invoking it and saying when Brady falls off it, that's the best time to agree for him to depart or whisper in his ear?

Seems like it would minimize Brady's trade value and disregard the quality of available replacement personnel.

You have the GOAT who is playing near his peak.
Any future decisions revolve around maximizing what you get from Brady not maximizing what you get from a potential replacement.
At this point 2 years of Brady plus 4 of next man up is better than a 6 year contract of JAG as the potential replacement.
If Brady falls apart in 2017 that may change (which is the reason for no trade this off season btw).
I see very little chance of that happening.
So in March of 2018 when a decision had to be made, it looks to be a no brainer.

 

[sb1]

There's no "unthinkable" in pro sports. I really hope you guys are right and I'm just Devil's-advocating. I hope he gets number 6 and goes out on top, or number 8, or whatever, and we've just drafted a guy 10 times better than JG (when all is said and done). That way the Pats could have figured out everything perfectly, Brady could have spent his whole career here, the Pats would have those SBs (and Brady would too), etc.

All the rest is "what if interests align otherwise."

Maybe I am emphasizing known incentives too much, and putting too little emphasis on Brady's internal state, of which I have little evidence. Perhaps he has an intrinsic motivation to write the storybook ending.

Even so we're dependent on the Pats evaluating Garappolo as "average" taking together injuries, performance, potential, etc. I treat their true evaluation of JG as both unknown and fluid over the next year. If we declare "he sucks" we're golden. The storybook ending can happen, just with another heir apparent. If they really think they've got something, the decision window closes sooner than we'd like.

I'm rooting for whatever BB decides on this one.

Personally... if BB does tell Brady "it's time", it is hopefully a decision based on football only and not of the mindset that he wants to prove he can win without Brady. The temptation would be hard to resist but I hope he does.

Otherwise that will not be helpful at all to the Patriots and in my view would put a dent in his legacy here as hard as that is to believe.

As far as JG is concerned - my view is possibly very good though his performance in those 6 quarters to me is overstated quite a bit. And also possibly sack prone and fragile. 8 sacks in 94 attempts with virtually no scouting done on you should not be written off. Not a trait the Patriots should be investing in in a long term future after the GOAT.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Personally... if BB does tell Brady "it's time", it is hopefully a decision based on football only and not of the mindset that he wants to prove he can win without Brady. The temptation would be hard to resist but I hope he does.

That's an excellent point (also in the realm of the internal state of the actors, which we can only even putatively evaluate by weighing their known objective "moves.")

But it could be a "thing" just as much as it could be a "thing" that Brady has a huge desire to retire a Patriot, play for league min. if necessary, etc.

Otherwise that will not be helpful at all to the Patriots and in my view would put a dent in his legacy here as hard as that is to believe.

I call bullsh1t. If the Pats and Brady have to part I hope it's amicable, and I think that all players on the board value professionalism and minimization of distractions enough for that to happen. But no, it doesn't minimize what TFB has done for us if he ends up elsewhere. Even Favrevruh, who specifically wanted to play for the arch-rival Vikings, is once again a fixture in the GB pantheon by now.

As far as JG is concerned - my view is possibly very good though his performance in those 6 quarters to me is overstated quite a bit. And also possibly sack prone and fragile. 8 sacks in 94 attempts with virtually no scouting done on you should not be written off. Not a trait the Patriots should be investing in in a long term future after the GOAT.

I agree on all counts. That's why I constantly temper my thoughts on JG. You never want to wish instead of plan. Scratch the surface and there are a lot of ways a coach could say, meh, some potential but better be ready to win with defense and a serviceable "Dilfer" level QB.

If that's their evaluation, time pressure disappears, which eases us into the 2018 and beyond time frame.

The whole 2018 "drop dead" date is premised on thinking that BB thinks that JG is the heir apparent. That is an unknown to me. You're right about his 6 quarters of NFL experience - that's a small amount to bet the farm on. Of course the Pats staff sees him in practice, etc., and are much better at talent evaluation than anybody here.

You can't coach a guy out of being injury-prone, although you can condition him out of some injuries. You can coach a guy out of being sack-prone. I would imagine they're working on that, to the extent one can work on it. You know, just in case... if it's okay to even say that they might spare a thought to improving weaknesses in a backup, where TFB is concerned.