Celtics trade Isaiah Thomas, Brooklyn 2018 pick & players for Kyrie Irving

[BradyFTW!]

Couldnt disagree more. Curry is nowhere close to Irving. I don't consider Westbrook a pg- he's a top 5 player but not a pg. Right now I'd take irving over Paul,due to their ages.
In no particular order, LeBron,(still easily#1), Anthony Davis, Westbrook,Leonard and Irving. That's your top 5. Irving can take over a game by himself.

Westbrook is absolutely a PG. Or, to put it another way: if he isn't, then neither is Kyrie. Because the exact same argument against Westbrook being a PG--that he scores a lot and not always with a ton of efficiency--also applies to to Kyrie.

But it's a moot point, because Westbrook is a PG. He's ball dominant and he scores a lot, but that's true of all the good PGs these days, and it's as true of Kyrie as it is of any of the other guys. Westbrook is a PG, as is Harden, as is Curry as is CP3, and all four of them are definitely better than Kyrie. At least right now, in 2-3 years that'll likely no longer be the case for at least a couple of them.

I'd put Kyrie on the second tier of PGs after those four, alongside John Wall, Damian Lillard and Kyle Lowry. Kyrie and Wall both have the upside and youth to get to the first group, but neither has yet.

 

[jimnance]

Holy crap are there really multiple people who believe Irving is a "top 5 player in the league"

Most NBA experts agree.

 

[Deus Irae]

Most NBA experts agree.

No, they don't

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

I feel they gave up too much. Thomas will give the cavs the same production unless i am missing something and Thomas will be a scrub with a chronic hip problem. Crowder's a decent player. I find it hard to believe that the nets will win 40 games next season. Likely will be a lottery pick maybe top 4.

 

[jimnance]

Westbrook averaged 10.3 assists per game last season and was the primary ballhandler for his team. Irving averaged 5.8 assists per game last season and was the secondary ballhandler for his team.

Do you know what a point guard is

Considering I played the point, yeah. Assists are not the most important stat for a pg- assist/ turnover ratio are. Westbrook averages almost as many tos as assists. He's also not in Irving league as far as ball handling. Paul is the best all around pg in the NBA but I'd take irving due to age. Westbrook is really a 2 guard.

 

[supafly]

If they don't get past CLE Danny should be fired

Vegas still has CLE as the odds on fave to win the Eastern conference.

You may be right that BOS can overtake them if/when LBJ leaves, but I think a lot of people would favor the Cavs in the upcoming season.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

Vegas still has CLE as the odds on fave to win the Eastern conference.

You may be right that BOS can overtake them if/when LBJ leaves, but I think a lot of people would favor the Cavs in the upcoming season.

Which makes the deal even more ridiculous. Is Kyrie Irving going to stay beyond two years?

 

[drewskie]

Actually, the numbers in Cleveland indicate that Irving couldn't get it done without LeBron.

Lebron-led teams are always built around Lebron-ball meaning a lot of his secondary stars have to take a backseat because he only knows how to dominate the ball. Good for fantasy stats, but against elite defenses this style of play becomes exploitable. How else do you explain Bosh and KLove being relegated to spot up shooters? Its because Lebron-ball requires his bigs to clear the lane for him to drive and kick to shooters. Its really effective like Peyton Manning-led offenses in the regular season, the concepts are simple but most teams are bad enough they cant stop it. But its a predictable style of play that has thus far gotten Lebron's teams on the brink of elimination in 7 out of 8 Finals, only to get bailed out by Ray Allen and Kyrie Irving in 2 game 7 wins. The other 5 losses were by margins of 4-0, 4-1 twice, and 4-2 twice. He's closer to being 1 and 7 in the Finals than he is at being .500.

His teams become reliant on his "heroics" and he knows if he gets his stats like averaging a triple double in the Finals, he will be absolved of blame. Never underestimate Lebron's PR team.

This trade is a fair one imo for both sides. The BKN pick is the wild card. Ainge wasnt prepared to max out Thomas (he is right imo). The PG13 and Butler trades were steals, especially for Minnesota. OKC got rid of Oladipo's contract and if PG13 leaves for nothing next offseason, its still a win for OKC in that respect. The Bulls FO I'm not sure what they were thinking with Butler. Lavine is a solid young player but they should have gotten more in any trade.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

I remember in the summer league Tatum sitting down because of some knee tendonitis. I hope that was some bogus injury report.

 

[Urgent]

Who wins trades in the NBA?

The team that lands the best player in the group.
Irving is a younger, more athletic point guard. Celtics upgraded. It's a star-based league.
Risk that Irving leaves? I guess. But a similar risk that Thomas would leave.
There's a risk that the Brooklyn pick is a star but that is a literal lottery.

Celtics are better than they were before the trade.

I think the best argument against is simply waiting out Golden State but that's not a winner's strategy.

 

[supafly]

If you put it that way, you swapped elite PGs, one of whom was 5 years older, is damaged goods and was a total liability on the defensive end (not that Irving is a great defender but he's also not 5'6) .

Brooklyn picks next year ends up at 10. IT walks becauses he Cavs aren't gonna pay a 30 year old 5'6 PG the max. That's if he's even the same player with his hip. Meanwhile, the Lakers suck and the Cs end up with pick 2-4.

Not saying it will go that way, but it certainly is possible.

Big difference between his actual 5'9" and what you're repeatedly referring to as 5'6."

Thomas had very similar stats to Irving last year. Actually, he had a higher PPG with similar assists per game. Obviously, he isn't as good, but adding in Crowder, the big guy (2016 first rounder,) and the potential to have a top 3-5 pick in the entire draft certainly seems to make up for any gap.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Vegas still has CLE as the odds on fave to win the Eastern conference.

You may be right that BOS can overtake them if/when LBJ leaves, but I think a lot of people would favor the Cavs in the upcoming season.

I'm taking the Cs in a tight series.

They added enough to get past CLE

 

[rochrist]

I think the bigger issue is that, while this trade is fine for the Celtics absent context, it's a lot to give up when you consider what happened earlier this summer. They could have traded basically nothing for an arguably superior player in Jimmy Butler and just stood pat and drafted Fultz.

Butler isn't a superior player.

 

[rochrist]

Big difference between his actual 5'9" and what you're repeatedly referring to as 5'6."

Thomas had very similar stats to Irving last year. Actually, he had a higher PPG with similar assists per game. Obviously, he isn't as good, but adding in Crowder, the big guy (2016 first rounder,) and the potential to have a top 3-5 pick in the entire draft certainly seems to make up for any gap.

Everyone who's actually seen him in person says he's closer to 5'6 than 5'9. Crowder is a JAG and the Brooklyn pick could just as easily be 10-15 as 3-5.

 

[rochrist]

The top 5 players in the league are LeBron, Curry, Westbrook, Durant, and Harden. Season with Kawhi Leonard, Anthony Davis, Giannis, Jimmy Butler, and Draymond Green to taste. The Celtics could have traded for Butler and did not. Kyrie is talented but far behind any of those guys.

JImmy Butler is no where CLOSE to that good.

 

[rochrist]

Most NBA experts agree.

To be fair, most NBA experts think there are at least 25 'top 5' players in the league.

 

[Deus Irae]

the Brooklyn pick could just as easily be 10-15 as 3-5.

I'm not sure where you're coming up with that theory, but come on...

 

[rochrist]

Actually, the numbers in Cleveland indicate that Irving couldn't get it done without LeBron.

Without LeBron Kyrie was a first and second year player on a garbage team.

 

[rochrist]

I'm not sure where you're coming up with that theory, but come on...

I'm coming up with it thru the Nets making some improvements in the offseason, have zero reason to tank, while a boatload of teams got way worse and have an extreme incentive to tank.

 

[Deus Irae]

Without LeBron Kyrie was a first and second year player on a garbage team.

And, without LeBron on the court last year, the Cavs numbers took a nose dive.