Celtics trade Isaiah Thomas, Brooklyn 2018 pick & players for Kyrie Irving

[Joker]

I played ball at B.U. in the early 70's. I was a gym rat into my 30's. No matter what I was into back then, I knew I was playing ball somewhere that day. It was like my religion.

I'm not sophisticated enough in the ways and means of the current NBA landscape to judge this trade before there's been even one tipoff but I will say this with confidence...who do YOU want backing the other guy down for a last shot? Kyrie Irving is M-O-N-E-Y and he's 25. The Brooklyn pick is just that...a pick. Is Shaq coming out in this draft? Kobe? Jordan? LeBron? I've looked at the prospects...looks like a regular top of the draft player pool....could boom could bust. Jae Crowder is a JAG. Zizic is your typical euro big man. Has some length..meh. The unknown quantity is Thomas and his hip. The known quantity is it's Kyrie Irving right in the middle of his prime....and marketing in Boston is going to LOVE him.

Do I fear LeBron/Thomas more than LeBron/Irving?...uh...if I do I'm insane. Sometimes a GM has to make a deal to strengthen a lineup and a perrenial all-star, offensive maestro in his prime can't be a bad thing.

 

[Deus Irae]

When the hell did Irving become an offensive maestro? Was that 5, or 10, minutes ago?

Irving is a ball dominating driver. If he's got a legitimate all-around offensive game, he's never shown it with anything approaching consistency.

 

[Gronk]

Kyrie increases the ceiling of what the Celtics can do. That might just be "losing to GS" instead of "losing to CLE". But as noted he's still the best player, BY FAR, in this trade, so good for the Celtics. Personally I think ITs limitations are about to be exposed big time w/o the ball in CLE and on defense as well. Plus Lebron could walk to LA nezt year and the east will be Celtics to lose, no reason for Kyrie to leave, why to battle for a 5 seed in the west?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Well let me try and put some perspective on it, DB.

1. Kyrie Iriving is a better player than IT, and I LOVE IT. Who wouldn't. But the fact is that IT was rated the worst defender among point guards in the league. He will be 29 when the C's will have to give him a Max contract, and has a bad hip.

2. Irving is a much better defender than IT with the potential to be more than just average. How good a defender he will end up being will depend on Stevens.

3. Crowder is a good player, but the league is filled with guys like Crowder. BTW- Crowder was a great Stevens players. I wouldn't be surprised to see him take a step back outside of Stevens system.

4. Zizic is a BEST, a situational big man....and I'm not sure he's even that right now.

5. Then there is the Brooklyn pick.....again. First you have to recognize that there is no guarantee that it will get you a top 3 pick EVEN if Brooklyn winds up with the worst record....and they might not. They had the worst record when they drafted Brown with the #3. The C's had the worst record a couple of times and never sniffed the #1 or 2 pick.

5a. Yes next year looks like a good draft for big men, but first the draft is a crap shoot to begin with. Big men are the hardest to predict who will be great. Even if you get lucky and get the right big guy, it will take 3-4 years before he becomes a dominant player.

5b. As the game has evolved, none of the best teams have dominant big guys

5c. The C's now have to develop 3 high picks as it is. There is such a thing as having too much young talent

5d. Between the Laker/Sacremento picks and the others the C's own, they will likely own ANOTHER lottery pick or 2 over the next 2 drafts.

5e. By the time any big man pick from the 2o18 draft is ready to actually give you value (about 2021) there will be plenty of opportunities for the C's to add another big man who actually can play the game.

6. So F*ck the Brooklyn pick.

7. Think short AND long term.

Right now the C's have a legit big 3 in Horford, Haywood and Irving for 2 -3 year run. Then they can give a Max deal to Irving at 27 and have a new Big 3 in Irving, Brown, and Tatum

8. This team is good enought right now to be a final 4 team again, and young enough to keep on getting better. Better than that. It will be young and good enough to be a real go to destination for future FA's

9. BTW- I think Cleveland did the best they could in this trade. They get a great offensive point guard. They get a solid NBA forward and a POTENTIAL high draft pick in 2o18. So they will be competitive in the east for LaBron's last season, and have a few assets to start their rebuild. It was a much better job than what the INDY GM got for George

. So DB, as you can guess. I LOVE this trade. What Danny has done this off season will make the C's a contender to make the finals for the next 5+ years....and I think it can get better.

I agree with the vast majority of what you wrote, but I do have two bones to pick:

1) Kyrie isn't a much better defender than IT. IT is an awful defender, Kyrie is... slightly less awful.

2) Big men aside, this draft is looking like it'll have two potential franchise wings (Porter and Doncic - I absolutely love Doncic FWIW). Go watch his highlights right now, he's been kicking ass in the best non-NBA league since he was 16, and everything about him translates to the NBA.

As far as the bigs go, I'm not all that high on them. I hate Bagley as a prospect, and I wouldn't want to bet a top pick on someone with Ayton's inconsistent effort. I'm intrigued by Bamba and his ridiculous wingspan (he has longer arms than anyone in the NBA), but i won't be at all sold until I see him dominate the best NCAA bigs.

I'm fine with the trade mostly because Chicago and Indy are just the latest entrants into the aggressive tanking sweepstakes. More teams are going to tank this year and they're going to tank harder and earlier. If Lin doesn't miss half the season again the Nets pick will likely end up in the 5-10 range.

I think the Celtics feel the same way, and don't want to risk ending up with the 5th pick in what I suspect will end up being a 3-4 player draft. It's a calculated risk, but I understand it. Even if it costs us a chance to pick Bagley or Ayton I'll be happy. If the pick ends up in the top 2, though, they'll be kicking themselves.

 

[Joker]

When the hell did Irving become an offensive maestro? Was that 5, or 10, minutes ago?

Irving is a ball dominating driver. If he's got a legitimate all-around offensive game, he's never shown it with anything approaching consistency.

Irving in 2016 has better stats in FG%, 3 point%, rebounds and steals than Isaiah Thomas and he's three years younger. They are even in assists per game. Look it up.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

5c. The C's now have to develop 3 high picks as it is. There is such a thing as having too much young talent

And they still have two more extra first-rounders coming to them in 2018 and/or 2019.

 

[patsfan13]

It will be fascinating to see if the Lakers are worse than the Nets.

You have to go big in the NBA. Ainge may lose but he has gone big. He isn't playing not to lose, he is playing to win.

 

[Deus Irae]

Irving in 2016 has better stats in FG%, 3 point%, rebounds and steals than Isaiah Thomas and he's three years younger. They are even in assists per game. Look it up.

Thomas had a better eFG%, despite being the focal point of opponent defenses while Irving was getting the benefit of defenses keying on LBJ. He also had more assists per 48 minutes, drew fouls more often, had a better PER rating, had a better PER differential, and was better in the clutch.

 

[Joker]

Dwayne Wade had the lowest eFG% in the league. He shyt on Thomas at will. C'mon, you actually prefer that the C's kept Thomas over Irving? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Deus Irae]

Dwayne Wade had the lowest eFG% in the league. He shyt on Thomas at will. C'mon, you actually prefer that the C's kept Thomas over Irving? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Matchups matter.

As for Thomas v. Irving, I can see the logic behind making an even swap, and the logic behind refusing an even swap. I can even see the logic behind tossing in the guys needed to even the money, as part of the gamble that the younger Irving will sign and will fit the team. But, when you toss in the Brooklyn pick, it becomes a terrible deal.

And if this deal was heading in the other direction, the same people who are praising it now would be laughing their asses off at Cleveland.

 

[RobertWeathers]

No he should not. That is stupid knee jerk talk. Danny got us all of those picks with a brilliant trade. He turned quickly the lowly post-KG/Pierce Celtics back to a respectable status and just last season a trip to the ECF. He has created a young #1 or #2 team in the East for the forseeable future with a legitimate shot at a finals appearance now. And you all want to fire the guy? Get a fricking grip.

Ainge is gambling on BKN being a better team. If he turns out to be right, which is a legitimate possibility, the Celtics win the trade.

The Celtics, if they aren't favorites to win the East this season will be better positioned than Cleveland moving forward as the Celtics core is young while the Cleveland core is aging.

Ainge is aiming to win now instead of waiting for the post IT-era with hopes that Brown/Tatum/BKN '18 could become contenders. And I'm OK with the choice he made.

I don't think you comprehend what Danny has done.

Big money for Al.

Big money for Haywood.

The fact is he gave up a ton in collateral and team chemistry to swing this deal.

They are over the luxury tax.

He is rolling the dice to win now and next year.

Very similar to 07.

If Irving bolts in 2 years and they don't reach the Finals he will be fired.

 

[Doctor DDS]

The big question is if you believe 2016/2017 IT is what you will see going forward or if his year was an aberration. If IT plays like he just did for the next 3 or 4 years then the trade is a huge win for the Cavs. If not, and Tatum & Brown blossom in the next couple of years then the C's are set up to have an excellent team 2019 forward. For the current season, I do not think the C's improved as Crowder's minutes will be replaced by Brown/Tatum and I see that as a slight downgrade particularly defensively.

 

[DarrylS]

Was never a huge IT fan, not sure why, even though he was often heroic in the fourth quarter.. there was something about him I did not care for...

IMO this is a good trade adding Holford, Hayward and Irving in the past year has made this team much better on paper, will give the young'uns time to develop.. will miss Avery Bradley though, but Ainge has to do what he needs to do..

Great chemistry is fine, but if you have great chemistry and lack talent it all means crap..

 

[PatsFan2]

People seem to forget that this Celtic Team was down 2-0 by a Bulls Team with Rondo in the backcourt. Minus that Rondo injury the Bulls win the series beating a #1 seed. Yes and that was with a healthy IT. And before his injury IT look really Great against the Cavs...Not!

 

[Bill Lee]

We definitely overpaid in this trade. Should've been the Lakers 1st. The other compensation was fine outside of that.

I'm sure CLE would NOT have been interested if the BKN pick wasn't in the deal. It gives them something to go back to their fan base with. Instead of freaking out about Kyrie being gone, their fans can all now focus on the allure of that shiny new draft pick. It's about as good a look as possible for their new GM, but in the end all it is is a draft pick, one that is not all that likely to be a lottery.

However it makes one wonder what happens if BOS walks away from the table and sees if a better deal is on the table in a few weeks or months. Could they then get Kyrie with only the LAL pick? Does somebody else swoop in and get Kyrie, a player Danny obviously values higher than many on this forum? Does it become obvious a few weeks into the season that other teams are tanking/sucking and that the BKN pick doesn't have as much value so the deal isn't as interesting to CLE?

Who knows? Danny had to make a judgement call. Given he pulled the trigger, he put a very high valuation on Kyrie, and felt confident he can get Kyrie to sign an extension. Given CLE pulled the trigger, they felt the BKN pick had a lot of value. Maybe it's a good thing for us that the deal got done right now.

5c. The C's now have to develop 3 high picks as it is. There is such a thing as having too much young talent

5d. Between the Laker/Sacremento picks and the others the C's own, they will likely own ANOTHER lottery pick or 2 over the next 2 drafts.

5e. By the time any big man pick from the 2o18 draft is ready to actually give you value (about 2021) there will be plenty of opportunities for the C's to add another big man who actually can play the game.

6. So F*ck the Brooklyn pick.

I loved your post. It brought out a lot of things I was thinking, and in particular these things. How young did BOS really want to get? How much talent did it want to develop? What would it do as much of this talent rolled off their rookie contracts? Wouldn't it be better to have some skilled young veterans in the mix?

It's interesting to think back to the beginning of our off-season a handful of weeks ago when the big questions were all around what we'd do as IT and Bradley's contracts ran out. The mind boggles...

I guess it all comes down to timing. Danny has been sitting on a horde of draft picks ever since the BKN trade and it's pretty clear he felt it was time to use some of those assets and take the next step. Time will tell if his valuation of Kyrie vs the BKN draft pick was the right one.

I don't think you comprehend what Danny has done.

Big money for Al.

Big money for Haywood.

The fact is he gave up a ton in collateral and team chemistry to swing this deal.

They are over the luxury tax.

He is rolling the dice to win now and next year.

Very similar to 07.

If Irving bolts in 2 years and they don't reach the Finals he will be fired.

I guess you have a much different picture of Danny's job security than most of us do. He's not on the verge of losing his job based on this trade. He's got a big time track record, he's in tight with the owners and the coach, and he's not going to get kicked to the curb if Kyrie leaves in two years without a Finals appearance. There would have to be a total team melt down for such a thing to happen, like all the young talent and the next two years draft pics would all have to miss AND the Kyrie / Hayward / Irving "big 3" will need to be a disaster (i.e. not just fail to make the Finals) for that to happen.

IMHO Danny is very safe, barring some sort of epic melt down that requires a GM swap.

That being said, CLE is probably pretty happy with their new GM after this trade. It seems he's positioning them well for the post-LeBron era.

 

[goheels22002]

Please feel free to explain how this deal even has a chance to make Ainge immortal.

Ainge is stacking up one-and-done Dookies like cordwood. They'll love him in Krzyzewskiville.

 

[primetime]

Matchups matter.

As for Thomas v. Irving, I can see the logic behind making an even swap, and the logic behind refusing an even swap. I can even see the logic behind tossing in the guys needed to even the money, as part of the gamble that the younger Irving will sign and will fit the team. But, when you toss in the Brooklyn pick, it becomes a terrible deal.

And if this deal was heading in the other direction, the same people who are praising it now would be laughing their asses off at Cleveland.

Yeah, as a neutral party here, I'm perplexed by the reaction. Like you say, an even swap might make sense, but considering what Irving cost versus what Butler and George cost earlier this summer, and considering the Celtics passed on drafting a point whose ceiling is higher than Irving's, universal acclaim for the trade doesn't make a lot of sense.

48 hours ago, I bet everyone in this thread would have argued passionately that IT was better than Irving. I saw people claiming he was a top 3 point guard back in the NBA draft thread!

Then again, hey, Nets fans greeted the Pierce/Garnett trade with near universal acclaim and Celtics fans groaned.

 

[Nehalem]

I follow the NBA enough to know that you're talking out of your ass.

• Brooklyn had no incentive to tank last year, yet they still finished at the league's worst team.
• Brooklyn finished 4 games behind the second worst team last year.
• Just based upon last year's standing, therefore, Brooklyn would have to pass 9 teams to get to the 10-15 range (not talking lottery vagaries, here).

It is far from a certainty that the Nets aren't worse than last year, nevermind being improved enough to leap 9 teams.

As an example from last year. Minnesota was a pre-season pick to be greatly improved and possibly make the playoffs... instead they won 2 more games over the previous season and improved from 5th to tied for 6th worse record.

And this was with a core of young talent(including 2 #1 overall picks). And going from having a temporary coach due to their old coach dying right before the season to a new coach who is generally well regarded.

So I would certainly be careful about claiming Brooklyn is going to go from #1 to #10+

 

[BlacknGold77]

I love IT, but Irving is a completely different tier of player.

Also, I had concerns about IT and his hip. He is a small player who relies on his quickness to be effective. A hip injury and about to be 30 is a recipe for him to potentially fall off fast.

did the Celtics overpay a bit? Sure, but you have to. Youre asking your biggest competitor in the East to give you a franchise player. This is like the Sox getting Judge from the Yankees with Benintendi as the main piece going back.

Lastly, Irving has the killer instinct. He wants the ball in the pressure spots and delivers.

His last 10 Finals games he's averaging 30.1 ppg (30, 34, 41, 23, 26, 24, 19, 38, 40, 26).

Dont forget he was the one that made the game winning step back 3 at the end of game 7 to win the title 2 years ago, not Lebron

 

[Froob]

Dwayne Wade had the lowest eFG% in the league. He shyt on Thomas at will. C'mon, you actually prefer that the C's kept Thomas over Irving? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I get why people don't like the trade but wanting IT over Irving at this point is crazy. Anyone who had us seriously contending for the title next year is fooling themselves. This trade is huge for the future, IT's game won't age well, relies too heavily on speed. Kyrie is 3 years younger and his game will age very well.