**Official New England @ Denver Broncos Post-Game Thread**

[SHOWTIME15]

It seemed to me the broncos receivers, both sanders and thomas, were coming back on their routes to fool the DBs (Butler expecially) and that it worked very well. I wonder if BB can teach Butler not to bite. Butler was going stride for stride with Sanders and then Sanders makes one little juke move and butler is thrown off.

 

[long distance]

I wrote this up explaining to a Texans fan how we exploit match ups in our offense, and comparing it to what O'Brien has attempted to do in Houston. It applies to our game plan vs. Denver:

The way that you use the EP flexibility is to manipulate match-ups. Suppose you think a team's LBs are bad in pass-coverage. You go to 21 personnel (RB, FB, TE) to get their team into their base defense (only 4 DBs). Then you spread the field with 4 or 5 wide, often putting the FB lined farthest wide. The other team either puts a LB in the normal outside CB spot, or wastes a CB on your FB. If they choose the former, the entire defense is playing in roles they are not used to. If they chose the latter, you now have your receivers lined up against their LBs. Furthermore, you can figure out if they are in zone even before you put a guy in pre-snap motion. You can rip teams apart in the passing game like this, and you keep going no huddle so they can't get out of base.

Eventually, they might realize they cannot defend the pass in base against 21 personnel. They swap out a LB for a DB, and you pound them in the running game. This is how scrub running backs put up 200 yards against Colts.

To be able to achieve any of that described above, you need smart RBs, WRs, TEs, etc. Every player needs to understand every part of every route concept. The FB needs to know the inside, middle, and outside of the three man. This is why the Patriots value versatility and game-intelligence in their players. Perhaps OB wants to be flexible like this, but he does not have personnel that can do it. The Patriots have moved on from talented players because they could not pick up the concepts.

*(I am talking about EP as the Pats (and sometimes OB) do it. The article linked goes into Pats style EP more. I am not convinced that all teams that use EP actually employ these themes enough. The Steelers' take on EP always seemed a bit more bland to me.)

Great post.

Hence the importance of “star“ position. Since BB knows best how to exploit offensive concept you described so well he also knows best how to defend it. Being able to play legitimate big nickel w your base line-up is huge and not only against this (mobile QBs, explosive outside RBs etc).

Pats are trying it on occasion with Chung, Richards, M.Flowers and even D-Mac. But I don't think they found “the“ guy yet. (D-Mac would be very good but is too valuable in the secondary). M.Flowers, as you know, was intriguing signing for me for this reason. He has great size, athletic ability and some versatile positional experience (although limited) to be that guy. But as you mentioned, other less tangible things are more important. Im happy to see his snap count on D increasing, looking forward re-watching him @DEN. I wonder if Pats coaches can make a player out of him.. Of course stopping the run will always be BBs top priority.

Next draft is rich in solid hybrid options so I hope one of them finds his way to Foxboro..

 

[BobDigital]

Regarding the Steelers...they are a good team, very good, with several superstar players.

They also HAD been lucky in the injury department. The biggest reason that front seven has been running wild is because Joe Haden brought a new swagger to the secondary, and he looked like the old Joe Haden out there, which is very, very good.

He broke his leg. Let's see the thread begin to unravel.

Last night, just a couple of eye-test reactions:

Big (unexpected) contributors: La'Adrian Waddle, Kyle Van Noy, Phillip Dorsett, and Dwayne Allen was inches from 2 tds (and also looked like an OT in manhandling Shane Ray a couple of times.

Great to see Bennett looking like Bennett - use him sparingly.
Rex Burkhead is a guy they need to lock up forever.

There's nothing to not like about this team right now. They've been hammered by injuries and still, anyone picking against them to win the AFC is hoping, not predicting.

The Steelers are a good team but only relative to the NFL right now. In a different year they would very well be outside of the playoff picture as opposed to looking for a bye.

Their offense is what is it and it is not changing. People thinking Ben will bounce back and be Ben from 5 years ago need to let that hope (or fear) go. This is what he is. His body took way too much of a pounding due to the style he has played and his days of being elite/borderline elite are over. Right now he is actually one of the 10 worst starters in the NFL.

His passer rating is 24th so that is not hyperbole. Also he has that passer rating with 2 of the top 10 weapons in all of football and also he finally has a 3rd option who has shown shown some flashes in Juju and one of the better OLs in the NFL. despite all that this offense averages only 20.8PPG.

Part of it is cause they don't have a great depth of weapons with just 3 legit guys but really is it just bad QB play.

So though they have a fairly talented offense it is wasted.

On defense Haden will be back at some point but you need to wonder how much that injury will effect him the rest of the year. Their run defense is average and they give up 4.2 YPA so it isn't super exploitable but not really impressive.

Their defense is really built around their pass defense which has been one of the best in the NFL. I do wonder about level of competition though. The best QBs they have faced this year are Alex Smith (on one of his worst nights this year) and Stafford (who put up over 400 yards but failed to get his team in the end zone).

I don't think they have played a top QB or even a good QB on his game once this year.

Their pass defense is very simple. Blitz and blitz some more. They have 29 sacks on the year which is tied for 2nd most and a lot of that is cause none of the QBs they faced could read the free man coming and adjust protection.

They have a talented front 7 that is fast but I have seen a lot of sacks which have just been free guys coming off the edge on a blitz. If your plan to beat Brady is to blitz him 20 times then good luck!

 

[rexxar]

I'm sorry if this question was already answered.

I thought that this play was funny but was it a penalty? What would the ref have done if Lewis hadn't taken the ball back?

 

[FourierSeries]

Regarding the Steelers...they are a good team, very good, with several superstar players.

The Steelers have struggled against the likes of Cleveland, Chicago, Jacksonville, Detroit, and Indy.

I don't care how many "superstar players" they have. Until someone can convince me that Mike Tomlin can outcoach Bill Belichick (literally impossible) I can't take the Pittsburgh Little Sisters seriously.

 

[NE-VT]

Great post.

Thanks! I have really enjoyed talking with those Texans fans this year. You might like reading the original posts in the context of the conversation. This came up as a comparison to Kubiak's offensive system. You might also like this convo about why the HC should have full roster control.

Non-football aside: (They have also been nice enough to invite me into their restricted area where they talk about politics and other non-football things. We have started to dive deep into political things. As an overly analytic progressive "yankee" I have enjoyed the cultural exchange. I have found that they have been refreshingly willing to engage with a different political perspective in a constructive way.)

Hence the importance of “star“ position. Since BB knows best how to exploit offensive concept you described so well he also knows best how to defend it. Being able to play legitimate big nickel w your base line-up is huge and not only against this (mobile QBs, explosive outside RBs etc).

Nice bringing it back to a theme we have been discussing for a while! That point is right on. The way that you don't get destroyed by the Patriots spread run personnel attack is to have good coverage linebackers or safeties that are stout against the run. I.e. hybrid players.

M.Flowers, as you know, was intriguing signing for me for this reason. He has great size, athletic ability and some versatile positional experience (although limited) to be that guy. But as you mentioned, other less tangible things are more important. Im happy to see his snap count on D increasing, looking forward re-watching him @DEN. I wonder if Pats coaches can make a player out of him.. Of course stopping the run will always be BBs top priority.

I actually forgot you were high on him. I am embarrassed to admit that he was flying under my radar a bit. That will be a very fun thing to check out in the re-watch.

I also watch to check out the snaps where we had a TE#2 in the game. It seemed like Bennett did not block much, and Allen was doing quite well as a run blocker. Sorry to toot our own horns, but this is exactly what some of us (us, @luuked , @Tony2046 @Wheelman , many others. ) had been saying.

Patriots at Broncos Snap Count Report: Rex Burkhead has taken over as the top running back

Next draft is rich in solid hybrid options so I hope one of them finds his way to Foxboro..

I have not been paying attention to this much at all. Need to read up on the good ones!

 

[Tony2046]

What a thread!

Broncos will upset Pats 21-14

Dude! Are you a troll?

 

[maineman209]

I'm sorry if this question was already answered.

I thought that this play was funny but was it a penalty? What would the ref have done if Lewis hadn't taken the ball back?

I noticed that live and wondered about the implications.

I think the player who receives a KO in the EZ must formally down the ball (or himself as the ball-carrier) for the touchback. I'm not really certain what happens if he's tackled before doing so - possibly it's a safety?

Also, if the receiving player simply drops the ball without downing it/himself, it might be considered a fumble, so the kicking team might get a TD by recovering it.

Anyway, Lewis tosses the ball to the ref before downing it/himself. It may still be a live ball at that point. But, the kicking team can't actually tackle the ref to make the "fumble" recovery, and I'm not sure what the implications would be if the ref hands it to a member of the kicking team or simply drops the ball and runs away.

So, the ref tossing the ball back to Lewis and Lewis downing it/himself averts all sorts of "crises".

Quick (and generous) thinking on the ref's part, I guess.

 

[long distance]

Not meaning to nitpick your post, but I’ve seen this idea that Mexico City is 2x as high in several different threads lately. It’s simply not true.

Denver is approx 5,300 feet.
Mexico City is approx. 7,300 feet.

Good that they’re staying out West in order to acclimate themselves, of course.

I know the numbers, sadly..

Took some poetic licence to compensate for actually knowing such insignificants..

 

[FourierSeries]

Steelers fans' take on last night's game, and more importantly, their outlook for the rest of the season. It's always nice seeing the hopes of other fanbases being deflated. Hilarious read.

steelerfury.com • View topic - Around the NFL - SNF

 

[QuantumMechanic]

I noticed that live and wondered about the implications.

I think the player who receives a KO in the EZ must formally down the ball (or himself as the ball-carrier) for the touchback. I'm not really certain what happens if he's tackled before doing so - possibly it's a safety?

Not a safety. The kicking team provided the impetus for the ball to enter the endzone, not the receiving team. And even if the kick returner fumbled in the endzone and he or a teammate recovered it is still a touchback and not a safety because impetus doesn't even potentially switch until the ball comes out of the endzone.

 

[Kontradiction]

Dude! Are you a troll?

View attachment 18558

I troll this forum from time to time. It stands to reason that I would partake in the trolling of a rival team's forum.

 

[long distance]

Here is the clip in case anyone is wondering:

And here's the young captain's answer..

 

[long distance]

KVN:

 

[Tony2046]

I troll this forum from time to time. It stands to reason that I would partake in the trolling of a rival team's forum.

I'm surprised that you don't have Viper's quote in your Orange crush sig.

 

[PatsDeb]

I didn't know this video of Brady vs. Atlanta's defense existed from last year's Super Bowl - thanks for posting! ;-)

 

[Raymond]

Steelers fans' take on last night's game, and more importantly, their outlook for the rest of the season. It's always nice seeing the hopes of other fanbases being deflated. Hilarious read.

steelerfury.com • View topic - Around the NFL - SNF

This is a precious tidbit.

 

[AtomicDawg]

KVN:

Speaking of KVN.....he's going to bat for Bennett.

 

[Tony2046]

He did not go back and edit it that quickly because both myself and Victor Prime had time to respond to his orig post. It was several minutes. The proof is I was told by a poster that Reflex Blue meant in Denver, I had plenty of additional time to go back and reread and requote (copy and paste) it again to show this poster that IN Denver was never mentioned. None of this was accomplished in under a minute.

I have no problem with someone editing a post. Where the issue is is that he edited his post and then CLAIMED I changed his post in my response. This also meant that Victor Prime also would have been guilty of changing his post and removing the in Denver part. Why would anyone do that in the first place?

Anyway, what he did was bottom of the barrel low BS and I expect it will be taken care of. There is no room for that on here.

To be fair Bruins your initial reply to Reflex has the words "in Denver" in the quoted portion so it could have been edited while you were responding which happens.

So I think he saw your post with the quoted words "in denver" in it and thought you changed it. While you responded to the post without the "in Denver" in it and are pissed because of the accusation.

It's a misunderstanding. I think Ross handled it fairly.

 

[maineman209]

Not a safety. The kicking team provided the impetus for the ball to enter the endzone, not the receiving team. And even if the kick returner fumbled in the endzone and he or a teammate recovered it is still a touchback and not a safety because impetus doesn't even potentially switch until the ball comes out of the endzone.

That makes complete sense, now that you mention it. But what happens if the ball is not in the possession of a player from the receiving team - just on the ground whether "fumbled" or not - and the receiving team covers it? Wouldn't that be a touchdown?