Dwayne Allen

[Biffins]

I found the two clips you posted:



I talked about this play elsewhere, but this is my first time seeing this angle. To me it looks like Allen was blocking as if it were a draw play. However the the pulling tackle is more a run key, so maybe this is wrong. It looks less like Allen is slow out of his stance, and more like he thought the DE was going to pass rush into him. Perhaps Allen misunderstood his assignment.



I agree on this one. Terrible whiff on the block.

----

I still don't know I would call him a bad blacker generally just because of a couple of plays, but thanks for providing some examples!

Allen is not a better blocker, or receiver, than Bennett. We made a big mistake not keeping Bennett.

 

[NE-VT]

We made a big mistake not keeping Bennett.

I think you are being way too result biased in you evaluation of personnel moves. Our HC/GM has a track record. Sometimes good bets don't work out. If you think the Bennett move was wrong, critique the logic that went into it:

Should we have given a 30 year old TE #2 with some injury history the huge contract he wanted before he tested the market and took a lesser deal? Did we want to get into a bidding war? You realize that Bennett's new contract has way more dead money than Allen's right? Even if we cut Allen, moving on from Bennett was likely the right call.

Dwayne Allen Contract Details, Salary Cap Charges, Bonus Money | Over The Cap

Martellus Bennett Contract Details, Salary Cap Charges, Bonus Money | Over The Cap

Allen is not a better blocker, or receiver, than Bennett.

I am still not convinced on the blocking one. I don't think a couple of whiffs is enough to show he is generally bad at it. I do think a couple of blocking mistakes plus a poor understanding of the passing offense would be enough to get him benched.

What were people were expecting? In April he admitted he was having trouble learning the offense.

Dwayne Allen: 'Extremely hard' to learn Pats' offense

Former Colts TE Dwayne Allen on adjusting to Patriots: "You can't cry because it's hard."

The fact that he admitted that is a good sign, IMO. Maybe he will never get it, and we will just move on. We have an powerful, unique, innovative offense, that asks much of receivers and our QB. This is not the first time an offensive tool failed to pick it up for us. (As a side note, look at how much trouble O'Brien had with the Texans trying to find a QB that could do it. "System QB", SMH.)

I just don't get why people want to just say "he sucks". It is not a very interesting perspective. Why not look for some nuance into the situation?

 

[captain stone]

Dwops Allen sucks.


That is all...

 

[JoeB]

Throw him a short drag route to give him some confidence. He had 400 yards 6 tds last year so we should be able to get some production out of him. I was under the impression he was supposed to be as good of a blocker as bennent.

 

[Biffins]

I think you are being way too result biased in you evaluation of personnel moves. Our HC/GM has a track record. Sometimes good bets don't work out. If you think the Bennett move was wrong, critique the logic that went into it:

Should we have given a 30 year old TE #2 with some injury history the huge contract he wanted before he tested the market and took a lesser deal? Did we want to get into a bidding war? You realize that Bennett's new contract has way more dead money than Allen's right? Even if we cut Allen, moving on from Bennett was likely the right call.

Dwayne Allen Contract Details, Salary Cap Charges, Bonus Money | Over The Cap

Martellus Bennett Contract Details, Salary Cap Charges, Bonus Money | Over The Cap



I am still not convinced on the blocking one. I don't think a couple of whiffs is enough to show he is generally bad at it. I do think a couple of blocking mistakes plus a poor understanding of the passing offense would be enough to get him benched.

What were people were expecting? In April he admitted he was having trouble learning the offense.

Dwayne Allen: 'Extremely hard' to learn Pats' offense

Former Colts TE Dwayne Allen on adjusting to Patriots: "You can't cry because it's hard."

The fact that he admitted that is a good sign, IMO. Maybe he will never get it, and we will just move on. We have an powerful, unique, innovative offense, that asks much of receivers and our QB. This is not the first time an offensive tool failed to pick it up for us. (As a side note, look at how much trouble O'Brien had with the Texans trying to find a QB that could do it. "System QB", SMH.)

I just don't get why people want to just say "he sucks". It is not a very interesting perspective. Why not look for some nuance into the situation?

I'm so tired of this whole "Bennett just turned 30" ********. Who cares. He's a TE, not a RB. Why do you or others think he'll have a drop-off

Here are Antonio Gates stats. Note he turned 30 in 2010!! He's had 4000 yards and 53 TDs since 2010. Who cares he turned 30.

CAREER STATSMORE
Season Team Receiving Rushing Fumbles
G GS Rec Yds Avg Lng TD Att Yds Avg Lng TD FUM Lost
2017 Los Angeles Chargers 6 1 12 115 9.6 16 1 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2016 San Diego Chargers 14 9 53 548 10.3 27 7 -- -- -- -- -- 1 1
2015 San Diego Chargers 11 4 56 630 11.3 40 5 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2014 San Diego Chargers 16 14 69 821 11.9 34 12 -- -- -- -- -- 1 0
2013 San Diego Chargers 16 15 77 872 11.3 56T 4 -- -- -- -- -- 2 2
2012 San Diego Chargers 15 15 49 538 11.0 34T 7 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2011 San Diego Chargers 13 13 64 778 12.2 38T 7 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2010 San Diego Chargers 10 10 50 782 15.6 48T 10 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2009 San Diego Chargers 16 16 79 1,157 14.6 56 8 -- -- -- -- -- 1 0
2008 San Diego Chargers 16 16 60 704 11.7 34 8 -- -- -- -- -- 1 1
2007 San Diego Chargers 16 16 75 984 13.1 49T 9 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2006 San Diego Chargers 16 16 71 924 13.0 57T 9 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2005 San Diego Chargers 15 15 89 1,101 12.4 38 10 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2004 San Diego Chargers 15 15 81 964 11.9 72T 13 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2003 San Diego Chargers 15 11 24 389 16.2 48 2 -- -- -- -- -- 1 1
TOTAL 909 11,307 12.4 72 112 0 0 0.0 0 0 7 5

Here's Tony Gonzalez stats. He turned 30 in 2006. He had 7400 yards and 55 TDs after he turned 30.

CAREER STATSMORE
Season Team Receiving Rushing Fumbles
G GS Rec Yds Avg Lng TD Att Yds Avg Lng TD FUM Lost
2013 Atlanta Falcons 16 16 83 859 10.3 25 8 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2012 Atlanta Falcons 16 16 93 930 10.0 25 8 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2011 Atlanta Falcons 16 16 80 875 10.9 30 7 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2010 Atlanta Falcons 16 16 70 656 9.4 34 6 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2009 Atlanta Falcons 16 16 83 867 10.4 27 6 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2008 Kansas City Chiefs 16 16 96 1,058 11.0 35 10 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2007 Kansas City Chiefs 16 16 99 1,172 11.8 31 5 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2006 Kansas City Chiefs 15 15 73 900 12.3 57 5 -- -- -- -- -- 1 0
2005 Kansas City Chiefs 16 16 78 905 11.6 39 2 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2004 Kansas City Chiefs 16 16 102 1,258 12.3 32 7 1 5 5.0 5 0 -- --
2003 Kansas City Chiefs 16 16 71 916 12.9 67 10 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2002 Kansas City Chiefs 16 16 63 773 12.3 42T 7 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2001 Kansas City Chiefs 16 16 73 917 12.6 36 6 1 9 9.0 9 0 -- --
2000 Kansas City Chiefs 16 16 93 1,203 12.9 39 9 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
1999 Kansas City Chiefs 15 15 76 849 11.2 73T 11 -- -- -- -- -- 2 1
1998 Kansas City Chiefs 16 16 59 621 10.5 32 2 -- -- -- -- -- 3 1
1997 Kansas City Chiefs 16 0 33 368 11.2 30 2 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
TOTAL 1,325 15,127 11.4 73 111 2 14 7.0 9 0 6 2

Both Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez played very productively till 37 ish.

Tell me again why we were scared to give a 30 yr old Bennett a 3 yrd contract?

And for that matter, Gronk is 28 now and signed up till 2019 when he turns 30. Do you think there's a snowball's chance in hell they won't extend him. Gronk has been underpaid for his production and value to the team just because we're lucky the TE position is paid less and making him the highest paid TE still makes him cheap for his value to us. No way does Gronk not get extended.

So again, stop with the "he's 30" crap about Bennett. We messed up. That's it.

 

[Gumby]

I'm so tired of this whole "Bennett just turned 30" ********. Who cares. He's a TE, not a RB. Why do you or others think he'll have a drop-off

Here are Antonio Gates stats. Note he turned 30 in 2010!! He's had 4000 yards and 53 TDs since 2010. Who cares he turned 30.
TOTAL 909 11,307 12.4 72 112 0 0 0.0 0 0 7 5

Here's Tony Gonzalez stats. He turned 30 in 2006. He had 7400 yards and 55 TDs after he turned 30.
CAREER STATSMORE
TOTAL 1,325 15,127 11.4 73 111 2 14 7.0 9 0 6 2

Both Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez played very productively till 37 ish.
Tell me again why we were scared to give a 30 yr old Bennett a 3 yrd contract?
So again, stop with the "he's 30" crap about Bennett. We messed up. That's it.

MB is (and was) clearly a better TE than Allen. But it wasn't about solely quality. Desire and dollars count too.

I think the main issue is that MB DIDNT WANT TO STAY, not that bb didn't want an old guy. The age-Health is just a secondary criteria. (But a valid one considering gronk isn't usually there for 19 straight games). He turned down BB's fair market-value deal to go hunting for the SB winner payday. Bb took Allen before he was left with no one. And MB, then took less than bb's offer when market dried out. If you are already paying gronk to be the best Te in league you can't pay two that way.

You can't say Pats 'messed up' without saying: 'they should have overpaid, and here are the other FAs or other players we should NOT have paid, in order to overpay Bennett (~$3M ).'

if that is your argument, fair enough -- show us your list of cap savings and [cut] players .

 

[Biffins]

MB is (and was) clearly a better TE than Allen. But it wasn't about solely quality. Desire and dollars count too.

I think the main issue is that MB DIDNT WANT TO STAY, not that bb didn't want an old guy. The age-Health is just a secondary criteria. (But a valid one considering gronk isn't usually there for 19 straight games). He turned down BB's fair market-value deal to go hunting for the SB winner payday. Bb took Allen before he was left with no one. And MB, then took less than bb's offer when market dried out. If you are already paying gronk to be the best Te in league you can't pay two that way.

You can't say Pats 'messed up' without saying: 'they should have overpaid, and here are the other FAs or other players we should NOT have paid, in order to overpay Bennett (~$3M ).'

if that is your argument, fair enough -- show us your list of cap savings and [cut] players .

My argument is simply they should have handled the situation better. They could have told Bennett to test the market and that they'll match etc. They said that to Hightower and DMac and it worked out. They said that to Edelman (remember Edelman was a FA in 2011 and visited Giants, and Pats re-signed him for 1 yr). Pats have done this before.

There are other times the Pats FO didn't handle the situation well. I hated how we handled Vinateiri. He wanted $2.5m and we wanted to give $2m and he walked. It was stupidity and it was so bitter Vinateiri wouldn't even let them match. Same with Danny Woodhead, and Akiem Hicks (I think the $10m 2 yr deal from Chicago was fair and we should have matched/picked him up). Now Hicks just re-signed for 4yr $48m. This is the same guy we wouldn't pay $5m to. Hicks was a blunder. Bennett was a blunder. Pats FO is not immune to mistakes.

As for saving cap space. How about we don't get Allen or Harris, there's $10m for this year right there, with no loss in production on the field. Boom.

 

[Deus Irae]

How many catches did you expect? How many catches is average for a #2 TE on the patriots or anywhere else?

That can't be a serious question from a fan of the Patriots, particularly after the days of Gronk/Hernandez.

 

[Deus Irae]

My argument is simply they should have handled the situation better. They could have told Bennett to test the market and that they'll match etc. They said that to Hightower and DMac and it worked out. They said that to Edelman (remember Edelman was a FA in 2011 and visited Giants, and Pats re-signed him for 1 yr). Pats have done this before.

There are other times the Pats FO didn't handle the situation well. I hated how we handled Vinateiri. He wanted $2.5m and we wanted to give $2m and he walked. It was stupidity and it was so bitter Vinateiri wouldn't even let them match. Same with Danny Woodhead, and Akiem Hicks (I think the $10m 2 yr deal from Chicago was fair and we should have matched/picked him up). Now Hicks just re-signed for 4yr $48m. This is the same guy we wouldn't pay $5m to. Hicks was a blunder. Bennett was a blunder. Pats FO is not immune to mistakes.

As for saving cap space. How about we don't get Allen or Harris, there's $10m for this year right there, with no loss in production on the field. Boom.

Bennett's a guy who wears out his welcome. Knowing that, I don't see a problem with letting him move on. As is almost always the case, the real question isn't who you let walk. The question is who you bring in as a replacement.

 

[Biffins]

Bennett's a guy who wears out his welcome. Knowing that, I don't see a problem with letting him move on. As is almost always the case, the real question isn't who you let walk. The question is who you bring in as a replacement.

Well I disagree. Clearly I feel Bennett would have been great value at $7m.

 

[Mack Herron]

Well I disagree. Clearly I feel Bennett would have been great value at $7m.

The problem was that Bennett was seeking more than BB would pay. Had they decided to roll the dice and bet they would be able to eventually get him at their price, they could have been left holding the bag (Allen and Bennett could both have signed elsewhere). In hindsight, Bennett would have been the better choice, but nobody anticipated Allen's production would fall off a cliff. There is something to be said for a bird in the hand.

 

[Biffins]

The problem was that Bennett was seeking more than BB would pay. Had they decided to roll the dice and bet they would be able to eventually get him at their price, they could have been left holding the bag (Allen and Bennett could both have signed elsewhere). In hindsight, Bennett would have been the better choice, but nobody anticipated Allen's production would fall off a cliff. There is something to be said for a bird in the hand.

And you would thought the same way if they had signed someone else while Hightower or DMac were investigating the market.............

What if Patriots had signed Kiko Alonso at the 3yr $29m he got from the Dolphins instead of waiting for Hightower. You would have said "Makes perfect sense. There is something to be said for a bird in the hand.".

I am saying they mismanaged the situation.

 

[Mack Herron]

And you would thought the same way if they had signed someone else while Hightower or DMac were investigating the market.............

What if Patriots had signed Kiko Alonso at the 3yr $29m he got from the Dolphins instead of waiting for Hightower. You would have said "Makes perfect sense. There is something to be said for a bird in the hand.".

I am saying they mismanaged the situation.

It is not what I said. I am offering one view of what BB may have been thinking. The Pats tried unsuccessfully to reach a deal with Bennett before he became a FA. Once that effort failed, they moved on.

Packers sign Super Bowl champion TE Bennett

 

[NE-VT]

And you would thought the same way if they had signed someone else while Hightower or DMac were investigating the market.............

What if Patriots had signed Kiko Alonso at the 3yr $29m he got from the Dolphins instead of waiting for Hightower. You would have said "Makes perfect sense. There is something to be said for a bird in the hand.".

I am saying they mismanaged the situation.

First, thank you for providing the arguments above. I agree that 30 is not a magic number. I do think BB tends to move on from above average players before they become below average however. Gates and Gonzalez are/were much better receivers than the two we are discussing.

I just think your argument is based too much on how things worked out. Why do you think BB should have seen this coming? I think the best argument for that goes like this:

Because skill position players have historically had trouble learning our system, we should highly value players that have already successfully learned it and had success.

 

[Angelpats]

19 pages for this thread already. Most everyone here is arguing he has been a disappointment after six games. There's no argument there so why drag it out by defending what he's done so far. We have ten more games left for Allen to turn it around and when or if he does there will be a thread for his defenders to appreciate. Allen earned this thread, and he will have to earn his appreciation thread, as with every other player.

 

[Biffins]

I just think your argument is based too much on how things worked out. Why do you think BB should have seen this coming? I think the best argument for that goes like this:

Because skill position players have historically had trouble learning our system, we should highly value players that have already successfully learned it and had success.

No, that is exactly what I and others have argued. We need to keep whoever actually gets the system. Scott Chandler, Dwayne Allen and many WRs (Chad Johnson, Joey Galloway, Reggie Wayne and others) have just failed to adjust to our system. So since Bennett got it straight away, we should have kept him.

And btw this is not retrospective only. Lots argued at the time we need to keep Bennett. And even more argued that we should keep Hicks at the 2yr $10m he was being offered.

 

[NE-VT]

No, that is exactly what I and others have argued. We need to keep whoever actually gets the system. Scott Chandler, Dwayne Allen and many WRs (Chad Johnson, Joey Galloway, Reggie Wayne and others) have just failed to adjust to our system. So since Bennett got it straight away, we should have kept him.

And btw this is not retrospective only. Lots argued at the time we need to keep Bennett. And even more argued that we should keep Hicks at the 2yr $10m he was being offered.

Fair enough. I apologize for assuming it was retrospective.

I just don't think we know enough of the details of the contract negotiations to call it a bad move by BB. We also don't know if BB has principled reasons for thinking that Bennet won't age well. We don't know if BB thought comments like "I'm going into free agency as a Super Bowl champion," and "You know they overpay Super Bowl champions!" would be harmful to the team's culture. I am unwilling to call it a mistake, even if Allen never plays another snap. You win some, you lose some.

Its totally fine we disagree, I still really enjoyed this discussion. It makes much more sense to me why you would be so upset given you disliked this move since the offseason, and it sounds like you had principled reasons for not liking it back then. At the time I viewed it as business as usual, and we been owning the NFL for a while now.

NFL Team Win Trends - All Games

 

[Deus Irae]

Well I disagree. Clearly I feel Bennett would have been great value at $7m.

Bennett's a guy who wears out his welcome. Knowing that, I don't see a problem with letting him move on. As is almost always the case, the real question isn't who you let walk. The question is who you bring in as a replacement.

.

 

[Joker]

heh...Bennett WISHES he stayed here now, too...

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

I think when he makes his first catch im gonna go search my backyard for oil