Incognito suspended indefinitely by Dolphins

[Fencer]

You backtracked in your post, with this obviously incorrect fall back:



although I guess it's possible that you just can't communicate your points well.


Must be your fault.

I was trying to give you benefit of the doubt -- more than you frankly deserve.

And I've said repeatedly that communication difficulties are generally the fault of both parties.

 

[Deus Irae]

When a player is placed on the NFI list — and this is important — his team doesn’t have to pay his weekly salary. Martin, making a little more than $607,000 this year in base salary, would have forfeited $35,733 for every week he was on the NFI list.

So yes, it’s fair to ask: Did Martin go AWOL without realizing the financial consequences, and now his people — most likely his agents — are trying to clean up the mess?

Dolphins? troubles may be about more than hazing - Sports - The Boston Globe

 

[Deus Irae]

I was trying to give you benefit of the doubt -- more than you frankly deserve.

No, you weren't. Had you been doing that, you'd have avoided the idiotic snark line you put in there. You knew you were wrong, but you didn't have the balls to admit it, so you half-assed your retreat.

And I've said repeatedly that communication difficulties are generally the fault of both parties.

You tossed out that "MINIMUM" assertion without bothering to think. You got called on it, because it's simply not true. Instead of saying something like "Good point, maybe there are exceptions and I should have acknowledged that", you went ad hominem. Was that a communications issue, or are you just a complete hypocrite?

 

[Fencer]

And yes, my "both sides are to blame" goes both ways. E.g., if -- as sure seems to be the case -- Martin was taking Incognito's (and other teammates') attacks more severely than the teammates realized, he shares blame ... well, for them not realizing that.

 

[shmessy]

Says more about the test and the experts doesn't it. I mean can we conclude from Brady's combine reports he's secretly not a very good QB, or that the experts were flat out wrong?

This is a psych/mental test.

Very different from Brady's combine tests you refer to which were all about his speed/arm, etc.

Obviously, the guy's psych/mental non-fit is what is holding him back in Miami. This report of the testing 18 months ago suggests the possibility that that particular environment was a factor. it is possible that a change of scenery (plus, what would probably be a huge chip on his shoulder) may be a bargain for a team with a different environment.

 

[Deus Irae]

About that $15k "shakedown":

"Every year, as tradition, the offensive line goes on a big Vegas trip. Everything is paid for in advance, from hotesl to a private jet to show tickets. Martin oritinally verbally commited to the trip, then later backed out after everything was booked. Now, if you can't go because of an emergency then it's okay, but to say your'e going and then decide you don't want to spend the money later? Everything was paid for, and then when it was time to pay up he didn't want to go anymore. You don't do that to your brothers. The veterans who paid for it, including Incognito and others, asked for Martin's share, and he gave it to them. End of story."

Hyde5: Is Martin case all about money? - Sun Sentinel

 

[shmessy]

Dolphins? troubles may be about more than hazing - Sports - The Boston Globe

"So yes, it’s fair to ask: Did Martin go AWOL without realizing the financial consequences, and now his people — most likely his agents — are trying to clean up the mess? "

I agree - - it's a very fair question to ask. Central to this affair is whether or not it is a calculated money grab by Martin. Excellent analysis from Volin (who - by a reading on the Finheaven board, is very much respected by the Miami fans). I think the Globe may have found a good one after losing a good one.

One thing that diminishes that scenario he puts out as a possibility, however, is the report that came out last night that Martin did not drop the bomb about this for the first time last Sunday, but that his agent contacted Ireland before going AWOL on 10/28 and was advised to punch Incognito.

Alot of Volin's possible scenario hinges on whether last night's report is true or not - - it could be Martin's agent throwing something out that can never truly be verified (unless it was taped).

Timeline is key. If Martin went to Philbin, Ireland or anyone else in authority before going AWOL, told them of his situation and was told to go fight Incognito, then the guy was in a corner. Telling him to slug a veteran who is 20 lbs heavier, is the leader of the lockerroom and on the "Leadership Council" is akin to advising him to jump off a cliff.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't want to run afoul of the quoting policy, so I'll have to edit this next one pretty heavily. Before commenting, people should first go to the link and read the whole thing, for context. Now....

The voice mail...Damning.

Except ...

The voice mail which Martin kept was later played in the Dolphins locker room around a group of players ... And Martin was the one who played it, according to two players. And he joked about it...

There's another thing. According to a source close to Incognito, the transcript of the voice mail is not complete. It omits the last line.

After Incognito went on this apparent diatribe, his voice softens, and matter-of-factly he says, "Ok, call me back."...

Do this add context? Yes.

About that voice mail again ... new information | Miami Dolphins In Depth

 

[upstater1]

I'm astounded by what Salguero reported, that the black players think of Incognito as being black, while Martin isn't. I never made this accusation in my life, but holy cow, that is some bigotry there. Just ugly.

Let's play this out a bit first in terms of Ireland's advice to Martin's agent: What happens if Martin goes after Incognito and gets clocked? The next day, Incognito goes after him and continues to bully him. What's Ireland's advice then?

Also, the black guys on Miami (if Salguero is right) have a very limited and proscriptive view of what being black is. If you're educated, you're not black. If you're a bully who has beaten up regular people for no reason all you're life, you're black?

Incognito has a history a mile long. This guy has crushed the skulls of small guys for absolutely no reason. That's black? Is that what being black is about? Whereas a guy raised in an educated family from Stanford can't hang? I have to doubt Salguero here because that is just ugly. I can understand not getting along with a guy or not being friendly, but you're telling me now that blackness is defined in such proscriptive traits? Horrible.

By the way, Incognito's father has some interesting things to say about Mike Pouncey and blacks on the Dolphins. If that's OK too, then the big weirdos are all these Miami Dolphins. I have lost a lot of respect for Hartline too, and Tannehill. If for some awful reason Hartline ever ended up on the Patriots, I would have a very difficult time rooting for him.

Martin's Stanford teammates are all sticking up for him--but they're from Stanford. At the end of the day, Martin's high school coach may have the absolute best view of this. It's a culture clash. And that may be so. But I'm very uneasy here with all these descriptions of racial traits.

 

[PP2]

You're making the mistake I alluded to earlier of evaluating this affair from the perspective of adult behavior. This is what has everyone fooled. These are man-children living in an alternate reality; our commonly accepted societal frames of reference do not apply.

This is exactly my sentiment. As lucrative and encompassing as the NFL is, at the end of the day, football is still just football.

I think it is erroneous to first and foremost point the finger at the players. In the right circumstances at the right time, anyone will do anything, as the infamous Stanford prison experiment proves (not to draw such a drastic parallel).

If the fault lies anywhere, it lies at the very top, with the person(s) responsible for creating the proper atmosphere. The fact that players have been speaking out (Hartline, Clabo, etc) suggests that they either were not told to handle it in-house, or are ignoring those instructions. Either way there is a major disconnect between the club and those in charge.

 

[Ring 6]

This is a psych/mental test.

Very different from Brady's combine tests you refer to which were all about his speed/arm, etc.

Obviously, the guy's psych/mental non-fit is what is holding him back in Miami. This report of the testing 18 months ago suggests the possibility that that particular environment was a factor. it is possible that a change of scenery (plus, what would probably be a huge chip on his shoulder) may be a bargain for a team with a different environment.

Or the conclusion of the psychological testing is wrong which happens a lot.

 

[Deus Irae]

Murtha, a former teammate weighs in on MMQB. Here's the full story:

Richie Incognito never bullied Jonathan Martin, Lydon Murtha says | The MMQB with Peter King

 

[Fencer]

One of the people most hurt by all this may be Tannehill, and I mean that in the most literal way.

Anyhow, it makes sense that Martin's teammates are surprised to discover that he's mightily upset by what they thought he was taking in stride. On the other hand, if you're bullied, it's usually not a good idea to keep letting the bullies see they're getting to you.

 

[Fencer]

Murtha, a former teammate weighs in on MMQB. Here's the full story:

Richie Incognito never bullied Jonathan Martin, Lydon Murtha says | The MMQB with Peter King

Sounds like bullying to me. While I accept his fact, I see Martin not fitting into the culture differently than he does. (But then, I'm also an educated guy who went to a top school and so on.)

Where I buy what he's saying starts:

• He's persuasive about the $15K.
• The lunchroom prank was obviously not a real issue so much as a trigger; I think that was clear from the getgo.
• The racist word is a bit of a red herring too. As I said from the getgo, different subcultures have VERY different rules as to how it's used (or not used).

 

[Kontradiction]

So they had to make one up?

I'm sorry, Kontra, that's not OK if this guy didn't do anything wrong. That would be making up a lie and putting it out there to the public. If they did that, then that front office deserves to be screwed.

By inserting the words "conduct detrimental to the team" and following it up with verbage about treating others with mutual repsect in the lockerroom, the franchise publicly pointed a finger at Incognito.

They easily could have stated that they were suspending him while they further investigate the allegations. Instead they stated that he, in fact, DID committ actions detrimental to the team.

They didn't have to make one up. What he did could have easily been considered "conduct detrimental to the team", so they had a reason to do it. But that's not the debate here. The debate is whether or not what he did was truly detrimental or if it was just a way of one teammate busting another teammate's hump. Given what's come out of the Miami locker room since then, with more details emerging, I would say that Martin's reaction and subsequent behavior is more detrimental to the team than Incognito's.

 

[Deus Irae]

Wake showers praise onto Philbin, culture he has fostered

 

[upstater1]

Sounds like bullying to me. While I accept his fact, I see Martin not fitting into the culture differently than he does. (But then, I'm also an educated guy who went to a top school and so on.)

Where I buy what he's saying starts:

• He's persuasive about the $15K.
• The lunchroom prank was obviously not a real issue so much as a trigger; I think that was clear from the getgo.
• The racist word is a bit of a red herring too. As I said from the getgo, different subcultures have VERY different rules as to how it's used (or not used).

About the racism here, one BIG thing people are missing is "half-xxxx." That's very different that having even white guys colloquially use the N-word with black friends. It personalizes it.

It's a totally different thing.

 

[Kontradiction]

In my experience, you don't suspend people whilst you're gathering intelligence to establish their guilt or innocence. You send them on a paid leave of absence.

Perhaps the fault is with the Dolphins for using the term suspension or they simply know more than we do?

You suspend if you're about to go into damage control with a story that's about to spin out of control within the first week. I doubt even the Dolphins know the full story at this point. That's probably the reason why Incognito remains on suspension instead of being outright cut. If they had all of the evidence or if what he did was so horrible, he would be cut by now and wouldn't officially be on an NFL team.

 

[shmessy]

Or the conclusion of the psychological testing is wrong which happens a lot.

Definitely a possibility. But if it not, and if the guy can come cheaply and with a chip on his shoulder, a different team may be able to benefit from him.

It is just interesting that his psych problems were not uncovered throughout high school, 4 years of major college football and a battery of NFL pre-draft psych tests.

It's also possible the psych condition manifested during the last 18 months for reason that had nothing to do with the Dolphins. But it may not be a huge risk for another team to give him a low-ball, non-guaranteed contract to come in and see if he could thrive.

 

[Kontradiction]

I think this is worse than the Riley Cooper situation.

And anyone standing up for Incognito or trying to justify his actions is plain ignorant.

This is what I was talking about earlier. Ignorance is not having enough experience with friendships outside of your own race, which I could bet is your issue. White guys call black guys the "N" word all the time if they're friendly enough with one another. It can be used in three ways...

1. An insult.

2. A term of endearment.

3. A ball busting crack.

If your friendship is tight enough, numbers two and three would be the meaning behind the word. If you're an idiot and don't have any experiences outside of your own race, it would be number one. It's not the black and white issue the media makes it out to be. That word isn't automatically an insult or racist term anymore. What the Dolphins players are saying about Incognito should make this evident to you. Try making some friends outside of your own race and you'll find that your ultra sheltered point of view regaring that *GASP* horrible, terrible word might change as you find that it can be used in more than one way by even a white guy.