Incognito suspended indefinitely by Dolphins

[Ring 6]

The black players then said some really ugly things, like Incognito is more black than Martin. Based on what? Seriously, you're about to defend that racist horse****? You're one of the best posters on here. I always enjoy your posts. But please don't defend that crap. Come on. The guy isn't black because he doesn't talk like them? REALLLY??????

I took this to mean Incognito fit in better with the black players group than Martin did. Those statements seem to revolve around the question of whether the black players considered Incognito a racist. (if they were made in response to something else, please clarify).

 

[upstater1]

I took this to mean Incognito fit in better with the black players group than Martin did. Those statements seem to revolve around the question of whether the black players considered Incognito a racist. (if they were made in response to something else, please clarify).

Salguero went into much greater depth than that. He started talking about how the players considered Incognito black. He said players told him that they thought Martin wasn't black. I am not saying that those players think of Incognito as a racist. I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying they harbor bigoted notions about blackness, and this is a controversial topic in the black community.

Beyond that, Incognito came up against a guy who simply doesn't abide by his use of the term "half-n****". If Martin is raised all his life to realize the power of that word, then it comes as no surprise that he's not OK with it. I'm not sure if that's relevant at all, since he apparently didn't tell Incognito to stop using that word in reference to him. For me, I don't care how comfortable Incognito is in using that word with other black players. He has no right to use that word to refer to Martin. But that's not the crux of this whole mess for me.

The big thing is the culture clash between black players who are OK with Incognito (and I admit I am heavily against this guy for all he stands for, from his past of bashing people for no reason, to his current antics, to his father's history--not just this week--), and a black guy with an education.

 

[upstater1]

It's pretty apparent that you didn't understand the meaning behind what they said, then. But I do appreciate the compliment.

Explain. I mean, what's the meaning behind, Incognito is more black than Martin? How should I interpret that?

 

[GrogansArmy]

Explain. I mean, what's the meaning behind, Incognito is more black than Martin? How should I interpret that?

Probably means Incognito is more gangsta than Martin.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

Salguero went into much greater depth than that. He started talking about how the players considered Incognito black. He said players told him that they thought Martin wasn't black. I am not saying that those players think of Incognito as a racist. I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying they harbor bigoted notions about blackness, and this is a controversial topic in the black community.

Beyond that, Incognito came up against a guy who simply doesn't abide by his use of the term "half-n****". If Martin is raised all his life to realize the power of that word, then it comes as no surprise that he's not OK with it. I'm not sure if that's relevant at all, since he apparently didn't tell Incognito to stop using that word in reference to him. For me, I don't care how comfortable Incognito is in using that word with other black players. He has no right to use that word to refer to Martin. But that's not the crux of this whole mess for me.

The big thing is the culture clash between black players who are OK with Incognito (and I admit I am heavily against this guy for all he stands for, from his past of bashing people for no reason, to his current antics, to his father's history--not just this week--), and a black guy with an education.

You're problem is you are letting your own bias and "dddddism" keep you from examining facts.

Most of the players do not seem to be bothered because they are the ones with intimate knowledge. They actually know these guys.

Actions speak louder than words is always a great way to view these things.

In your case, isolated words speak much louder than actions because it reinforces what you seem to truly want to believe.

 

[upstater1]

Probably means Incognito is more gangsta than Martin.

That's what I thought. It's why I'm responding the way I am.

 

[Ring 6]

I doubt they instructed him to word the call that way.

And I would bet a lot of money they weren't surprised that he did. It sounded like the way he communicates to his teammates, which is not that out of whack with many lockerrooms IMO.

To repeat my opinion: If you say something that on the face of it is wrongful, and the target indeed feels wronged, then you're to blame AT THE MINIMUM for a poor job of communicating.

I personally feel that the 'words hurt' approach is overused, but I recongize many people disagree with that.
In this case, again, I think you have to know the relationship to understand the intent as well as the feelings of the target.
I am far from convinced that this voice mail, or other interactions with Incognito are the real reasons Martin walked away.

When one acts as abusively as Incognito did, in the expectation that the target would actually take it well, failure to get a good response is NOT an acceptable option.

Again, IMO, you need to know the relationship. Hearing someone call a person the N word means something different to me, to you, to African Americans, to white people who are the minority in an organization where blacks are the majority (NFL teams).

By way of contrast, I'd be surprised if McGinest or Vrabel or Wilfork or Brady or other BB-blessed locker leaders went NEARLY as far beyond BB's own way of phrasing things.

Why? That implies you know them personally, which you certainly do not.

Yeah, BB swears at people a lot; I have little doubt that McGinest did too. But was he a lot HARSHER than BB? I'd be shocked.

Again, on what basis?

(I'm using rap mogul McGinest as the example because I suspect his style was a bit harsher than, say, funny man Vrabel's, everyman Bruschi's, gentle giant Wilfork's, or metrosexual Brady's.)

That actually could be interpreted as a racist comment.

 

[Kontradiction]

Explain. I mean, what's the meaning behind, Incognito is more black than Martin? How should I interpret that?

Okay, I'll hash it out for you. Most of Miami's locker room is black. Incognito fit in better with them than Martin did. He understood their jokes better, he understood their ball busting better, he took it better and he gave it back to them better than Martin did. He was closer to them and they considered him a "brotha" because of that.

Martin, on the other hand, came from a different way of life. He came from Stanford and, as his own coach even admitted, was not used to the meathead personalities that came from places like Nebraska and LSU. He was well spoken and articulate, came from a more wholesome family background, and as such, had trouble relating to the meathead personalities that were in Miami's locker room. Now that the issue of supposed "racism" has been raised, because this country is way too PC and is too afraid to possibly insult someone, the Dolphins players are coming to Incognito's back because they related to him better on a personal level than "the Big Weirdo", hence the "he's one of us", type comments. It's not racism, it just is what it is.

That doesn't make Incognito a good person, Martin a bad person, and vice versa. It just means that Martin, personality wise, was a lesser fit in the locker room than Incognito.

 

[upstater1]

You're problem is you are letting your own bias and "dddddism" keep you from examining facts.

Most of the players do not seem to be bothered because they are the ones with intimate knowledge. They actually know these guys.

Actions speak louder than words is always a great way to view these things.

In your case, isolated words speak much louder than actions because it reinforces what you seem to truly want to believe.

The fact that they know these guys is precisely why I am saying this. They're the ones who said Martin isn't black. They are twisted idiots. It's no surprise they back Incognito because he's more gangster.

Martin would fit in much better on another team, and there are teams without twits out there. As bad as we think Richard Sherman sounds when he pops off in the media, the guy is on a Seattle team that has a very down-to-earth non-gangster locker room, and he's a big part of it. Michael Robinson's behind the scenes videos pretty much show what they do.

Martin's high school coach had this down from the start. The Phins drafted a guy who didn't fit in with the team.

 

[upstater1]

Okay, I'll hash it out for you. Most of Miami's locker room is black. Incognito fit in better with them than Martin did. He understood their jokes better, he understood their ball busting better, he took it better and he gave it back to them better than Martin did. He was closer to them and they considered him a "brotha" because of that.

Martin, on the other hand, came from a different way of life. He came from Stanford and, as his own coach even admitted, was not used to the meathead personalities that came from places like Nebraska and LSU. He was well spoken and articulate, came from a more wholesome family background, and as such, had trouble relating to the meathead personalities that were in Miami's locker room. Now that the issue of supposed "racism" has been raised, because this country is way too PC and is too afraid to possibly insult someone, the Dolphins players are coming to Incognito's back because they related to him better on a personal level than "the Big Weirdo", hence the "he's one of us", type comments. It's not racism, it just is what it is.

That doesn't make Incognito a good person, Martin a bad person, and vice versa. It just means that Martin, personality wise, was a lesser fit in the locker room than Incognito.

I've been saying the same thing. But the initial post you responded to focused on the comments about Martin not being black. That's bigotry right there. That's what I'm responding to.

 

[Kontradiction]

I've been saying the same thing. But the initial post you responded to focused on the comments about Martin not being black. That's bigotry right there. That's what I'm responding to.

They didn't say that Martin wasn't black. They were saying that Incognito was more of a "brotha" than Martin was. BIG difference.

 

[Ring 6]

Salguero went into much greater depth than that. He started talking about how the players considered Incognito black. He said players told him that they thought Martin wasn't black. I am not saying that those players think of Incognito as a racist. I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying they harbor bigoted notions about blackness, and this is a controversial topic in the black community.

Wait, it sounds like you are criticizing the way black people feel about racism toward black people, and putting yourself out as an expert on the black comminuity. If you are in fact African American and live in a black community that may be a valid insight however I'm not sure how it qualifies you to criticize how the Miami Dolphin players feel about their individual teammates. If you are not, why go there?

Beyond that, Incognito came up against a guy who simply doesn't abide by his use of the term "half-n****".

We really don't know that. The player walked away from the team 7 months after that voicemail. He was hanging out with him in NO a month ago, he texted him that he had no problem with him, and teammates have called them best friends. How you conclude that this whole thing is about one phrase in a voicemail 7 months ago is startling.

If Martin is raised all his life to realize the power of that word, then it comes as no surprise that he's not OK with it

But the power of that word is very different among AA friends who use it like white people use 'buddy' or 'dude'. If one of Incognitos teammates just called him an 'honorary' black guy, why would the 'power of that word' not be in question in this case?

. I'm not sure if that's relevant at all, since he apparently didn't tell Incognito to stop using that word in reference to him

Still to my point, maybe he did. Reading Jonathan Martin's mind and passing judgment based on what we think he thought, how we thing he reacted, and why, is just a dangerous path.

. For me, I don't care how comfortable Incognito is in using that word with other black players. He has no right to use that word to refer to Martin. But that's not the crux of this whole mess for me.

Unless Martin is OK with it.

The big thing is the culture clash between black players who are OK with Incognito (and I admit I am heavily against this guy for all he stands for, from his past of bashing people for no reason, to his current antics, to his father's history--not just this week--), and a black guy with an education.

Wow. That is not good.

 

[Deus Irae]

You do what you always do.

You make claims with absolutely nothing said to support them. What is wrong with the analysis?

AND, word of advice: when you bold something in a post, that's internet etiquette to highlight exactly what you are referring to. You bolded the quote. Then below you said it was untrue.

This is why it is nearly impossible to have any sort of discourse with you. You move goalposts constantly and no one knows what you're going on about half the time.

1.) I haven't moved the goalposts here, at all.

2.) I know what I bolded. As I said, the spoken word part was accurate, according to the reports, and the analysis/assertion

This is different ground

was incorrect.

3.) In the real world, people say things to other people that, depending upon context, can be bad, or not bad. You seem not to have learned that lesson from this thread, despite all that's come out since the initial firestorm. While you, personally, may feel that using "half" automatically changes things, that doesn't make it true. I know this from actual, personal situations.

As for "absolutely nothing said to support them", you had absolutely nothing to support your position, yet you posted it as if you were positive of your position.

 

[Deus Irae]

....Beyond that, Incognito came up against a guy who simply doesn't abide by his use of the term "half-n****"...

Reports are that he played the voicemail in front of other teammates and laughed about it. How is that not abiding? Are you reading tears into his laughter?

See, the problem here is that you're trying to force a highly feminized and white(i.e. mainstream) viewpoint onto a very masculine and blended-race culture that's nothing like it is down by the water cooler at the local accountant's office. You're assuming absolutes that don't exist.

 

[patchick]

\Incognito fit in better with them than Martin did. He understood their jokes better, he understood their ball busting better, he took it better and he gave it back to them better than Martin did. He was closer to them and they considered him a "brotha" because of that.

Martin, on the other hand, came from a different way of life. He came from Stanford and, as his own coach even admitted, was not used to the meathead personalities

This makes sense to me, but it also makes it very easy to picture a team ganging up to make life miserable for the outlier. Back-and-forth "ball busting" is usually friendly. All-against-one often isn't, especially when class differences are involved.

 

[Kontradiction]

This makes sense to me, but it also makes it very easy to picture a team ganging up to make life miserable for the outlier. Back-and-forth "ball busting" is usually friendly. All-against-one often isn't, especially when class differences are involved.

There aren't any reports of the team ganging up on Martin more than anyone else. For instance, it's been widely reported from within Miami's locker room that most of their players (particularly within the OL) have been "victims" of that lunch room prank. Martin was the only one to flip out about it.

 

[Songin]

Honestly, I'm loving this situation. Everyone is getting their feathers ruffled by the bullying angle(he's physically fine so it doesn't register with me), but all I see are potential Dolphin losses due to their offensive line dysfunction.

^^^
This +1.

While everyone's playing semantics with the 'N' word (or was it "Half-'N'??.. wtf? lol), there's good money just sitting on the table FROM A FOOTBALL STANDPOINT considering the fallout from all of this. ******o Incognito imho is a Conrad Dobler 2.0 POS and a presumptuous one at that in taking it upon himself to use that 'N' term, notwithstanding whatever 'cred' he thinks he's established with his men-of-color teammates.

But beyond all that, here you have an additional major crack (Miami's OL) that's developed in a unit that's proven to be a glaring weakness and on top of that, now there's a discussion developing about whether or not the coaches were involved as well??? That's gold. To the "divide & conquer" fracturing of an already bad pass-protecting OL, you can now add "the Phish rots from the head on down" Philbin component to that as well which further serves to dismantle the Dolphins 2013 season.

Last year's AFC East pre-season media darlings: Buffalo Bills
This year's AFC East pre-season media darlings: Miami Dolphins

Sit back, microwave some popcorn and enjoy the current shlt show down in Miami in which yet another supposedly pre-season media darling (ESPN: "Will the Dolphins Challange the Pats?") bites the big one--hard. : ) jm2cts.

 

[upstater1]

They didn't say that Martin wasn't black. They were saying that Incognito was more of a "brotha" than Martin was. BIG difference.

We're operating under two different sets of information. Salguero said they thought Martin wasn't black.

 

[upstater1]

There aren't any reports of the team ganging up on Martin more than anyone else. For instance, it's been widely reported from within Miami's locker room that most of their players (particularly within the OL) have been "victims" of that lunch room prank. Martin was the only one to flip out about it.

And Salguero also reported that much of what the Dolphins are saying was prepared for them by Philbin. Salguero focused on the Murtha story, the Ireland story, and on Ellerbe's claims, and he said they showed the Dolphins have circled the wagons, because taken all together, the claim that the Dolphins didn't know that Martin felt bullied by Incognito was hard to justify. You could only believe it if you believe that Ireland never spoke to Philbin about what Martin's agent told him, or that--against what Murtha said--the Phins coaches were totally unaware of what was going on. Salguero thinks the Phins players and management knew Martin was not happy with his relationship with Incognito and they ignored it.

 

[upstater1]

Reports are that he played the voicemail in front of other teammates and laughed about it. How is that not abiding? Are you reading tears into his laughter?

See, the problem here is that you're trying to force a highly feminized and white(i.e. mainstream) viewpoint onto a very masculine and blended-race culture that's nothing like it is down by the water cooler at the local accountant's office. You're assuming absolutes that don't exist.

Essentializing black people again. Man you are being very racist here. Black people aren't the same everywhere. Many of them NEVER feel cheery at being called a n-----.