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Wtf happened with Brissett deal?


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I've been corrected in how the deal went down, but it seems to look worse and worse. The Patriots contacted the Colts and either asked for Dorsett or asked for what the Colts would give for Brissett, as they were trying to trade him, and they accepted the offer. That seems pretty idiotic, or at the least, it seems like a terrible approach to maximize the value on a trade, but it seems to be the same way the Garappolo deal went down as well. There were GMs commenting to writers about the Garoppolo trade that they had no idea he was available, but the 49ers got a sweetheart deal as the only bidders. Call one team and take their first low-ball offer rather than actually getting value for better players/draft picks, in the midst of being very short-stacked when it comes to young talent.

Even if Dorsett ends up being good, this was still a bad deal, and it's crazy to think that there's no market at all times for a good starting or backup QB when teams are still trading multiple high picks to move up in the draft for college QBs but rarely any other position. I think the Patriots themselves were trying to move up themselves this season to grab a quarterback (not sure which one, or maybe more than one.) Yet they just gave away a couple of QBs that are valuable to other teams and got a whole second round draft pick to show for it.

Name the QBs on other teams that have been moved in recent years for high draft capital. The only two I can think of are Bradford and Tyrod Taylor, and both trades were considered bad overpays. But at least those two guys were longtime starters going somewhere to start. There really hasn't been this huge market for back up QBs. Sure, the draft is still very much so a seller's market when it comes to moving up for a QB. But it simply isn't the case when it comes to veterans, even more so with backups.

Also, what info are you going on to conclude we accepted the 49ers first low ball offer?
 
Oh look.. 16-23 175 yards. Brissett getting better..:cool:
 
I've been corrected in how the deal went down, but it seems to look worse and worse. The Patriots contacted the Colts and either asked for Dorsett or asked for what the Colts would give for Brissett, as they were trying to trade him, and they accepted the offer. That seems pretty idiotic, or at the least, it seems like a terrible approach to maximize the value on a trade, but it seems to be the same way the Garappolo deal went down as well. There were GMs commenting to writers about the Garoppolo trade that they had no idea he was available, but the 49ers got a sweetheart deal as the only bidders. Call one team and take their first low-ball offer rather than actually getting value for better players/draft picks, in the midst of being very short-stacked when it comes to young talent.

Even if Dorsett ends up being good, this was still a bad deal, and it's crazy to think that there's no market at all times for a good starting or backup QB when teams are still trading multiple high picks to move up in the draft for college QBs but rarely any other position. I think the Patriots themselves were trying to move up themselves this season to grab a quarterback (not sure which one, or maybe more than one.) Yet they just gave away a couple of QBs that are valuable to other teams and got a whole second round draft pick to show for it.
You are free to believe that Bill Belichick built the greatest NFL dynasty ever by goofing off on the job and doing half-assed things like deciding to trade a player, making one phone call and asking what they will offer and taking it with no negotiation but it would put you in the flat-earther realm.
 
You are free to believe that Bill Belichick built the greatest NFL dynasty ever by goofing off on the job and doing half-assed things like deciding to trade a player, making one phone call and asking what they will offer and taking it with no negotiation but it would put you in the flat-earther realm.

I think it’s very out-of-character for him with both of these trades.
 
Let's call Indy and ask if they'll take Dorsett for Brissett now that Luck is coming back... Hmm. What are those chances.. lol
 
Let's call Indy and ask if they'll take Dorsett for Brissett now that Luck is coming back... Hmm. What are those chances.. lol
Why would we do that?
We didn’t want Brissett a year ago, and his play last year simply confirmed all the reasons we didn’t.
 
That should be your first clue that your impression of what happened is wrong.

Or maybe you could consider that even the best of them don’t get everything right. I’ll take Belichick in a heartbeat over any coach/GM combo in the NFL. I still think the Patriots crapped the bed with dealing away two quarterbacks and not getting close to their value back. He can be the greatest coach and GM in football history and still sign off on mistakes. Both can be true.

I’m pretty sure it didn’t go down exactly as I’ve suggested. But I’m certain that ultimately these were two badly misplayed hands.
 
You are free to believe that Bill Belichick built the greatest NFL dynasty ever by goofing off on the job and doing half-assed things like deciding to trade a player, making one phone call and asking what they will offer and taking it with no negotiation but it would put you in the flat-earther realm.

John Lynch must be lying, and other GMs who said they didn’t even know Garoppolo was available are all in on the conspiracy to smear Belichick for no good reason. I’m in on it too. I must be secretly angry at him about benching Butler and second guessing everything, right? My goal here is to push some anti-Belichick or anti-Patriots agenda because that’s totally what I always do.

Everyone says, “oh, at the time Garoppolo and Brissett” blah blah blah. Do we use the same criteria when evaluating the Randy Moss trade? Every trade in NFL history is a wash because teams didn’t know at the time how it would unfold?
 
Or maybe you could consider that even the best of them don’t get everything right. I’ll take Belichick in a heartbeat over any coach/GM combo in the NFL. I still think the Patriots crapped the bed with dealing away two quarterbacks and not getting close to their value back. He can be the greatest coach and GM in football history and still sign off on mistakes. Both can be true.

I’m pretty sure it didn’t go down exactly as I’ve suggested. But I’m certain that ultimately these were two badly misplayed hands.

I dunno one of those hands is still very much playing out. A CB who'll see considerable action as a slot corner, a LB who'll possibly be a STer, a mid second rounder and a mid 3rd in 2019 rounder is pretty decent.
 
Or maybe you could consider that even the best of them don’t get everything right. I’ll take Belichick in a heartbeat over any coach/GM combo in the NFL. I still think the Patriots crapped the bed with dealing away two quarterbacks and not getting close to their value back. He can be the greatest coach and GM in football history and still sign off on mistakes. Both can be true.

I’m pretty sure it didn’t go down exactly as I’ve suggested. But I’m certain that ultimately these were two badly misplayed hands.
You are suggesting that a man who has structure to everything he does just forgot to handle trades correctly because it fits your narrative.

I think given the circumstances he did just fine. People are being stupid thinking Brissett had any value more than what he got. It’s turned out to be a good trade.

Garaopolo probably could have netted more at draft time but Belichick opted for the insurance policy. Very arguably a second plus the insurance had more value than a first.
 
You are suggesting that a man who has structure to everything he does just forgot to handle trades correctly because it fits your narrative.

I think given the circumstances he did just fine. People are being stupid thinking Brissett had any value more than what he got. It’s turned out to be a good trade.

Garaopolo probably could have netted more at draft time but Belichick opted for the insurance policy. Very arguably a second plus the insurance had more value than a first.

I can’t say the brissett trade has been a good one for us. It certainly may turn out that way but to this point Dorsett hasn’t shown that much.
 
I've been corrected in how the deal went down, but it seems to look worse and worse. The Patriots contacted the Colts and either asked for Dorsett or asked for what the Colts would give for Brissett, as they were trying to trade him, and they accepted the offer. That seems pretty idiotic, or at the least, it seems like a terrible approach to maximize the value on a trade, but it seems to be the same way the Garappolo deal went down as well. There were GMs commenting to writers about the Garoppolo trade that they had no idea he was available, but the 49ers got a sweetheart deal as the only bidders. Call one team and take their first low-ball offer rather than actually getting value for better players/draft picks, in the midst of being very short-stacked when it comes to young talent.

Even if Dorsett ends up being good, this was still a bad deal, and it's crazy to think that there's no market at all times for a good starting or backup QB when teams are still trading multiple high picks to move up in the draft for college QBs but rarely any other position. I think the Patriots themselves were trying to move up themselves this season to grab a quarterback (not sure which one, or maybe more than one.) Yet they just gave away a couple of QBs that are valuable to other teams and got a whole second round draft pick to show for it.

You seem to be assuming that BB just called the Colts randomly and out of the blue, without him, Caserio, Adams and others having done their homework on the state of the Colts roster - and everyone else's.

I mean, these guys aren't exactly the NSA, but they certainly maintain a file (+tape) on pretty much every player in the NFL - files that, in many cases, were probably started back when those players were juniors, or even sophomores in college. They certainly have records of all their prior dealings with players' agents. They probably have a file on nearly every NFL coach from the positional level on up - their scheme preferences, their playcalling tendencies, their training methods, etc. They also know the GMs and personnel guys from all the other teams - how to approach them, what kinds of deals might appeal to them, how much they're likely willing to pay, or to ask for, etc.

They've done (and proposed) a lot of deals themselves, over the years, and probably have more accurate information on a lot of deals that didn't involve the Pats than we'll ever know.

In short, these guys know a metric crap-tonne of stuff that WE have no idea that they even know - because it's their damn job.

It seems to me absurd to think that Caserio and his staff don't have constantly-updated, player-replacement contingency plans in place for pretty much every situation. It's not really significantly different than maintaining a draft board. It seems absurd to me that anyone thinks that BB goes into any deal blindly.

When the Pats suddenly lost both Edelman and MM late in Camp, Caserio probably had a half dozen potential replacement WR acquisition plans to present within a couple days. There was some sort of discussion among decision makers that ranked those deals according to lowest "cost" (in terms of players, 2018 draft picks, cap hits, etc.), and ranked according to the likelihood that each deal could happen quickly and without much extraneous bargaining. Apparently, BB's call to the Colts was at the top of their list - and the deal got done. If it hadn't, there was another deal ready to be tried with another team for a different WR (that may or may not have involved Brissett).

And, no, I'm NOT making this up.

This kind of thing is NOT unique to the Pats. Most good FOs do something very similar. Last winter, I read a fairly long article describing in detail how the Seahawks' FO handles acquiring injury replacements. The readiness and the process for them is pretty much what I've describe above.

Sure, every team gets calls out-of-the-blue, like the one Lynch made to BB about JG. But it's not as if BB was at all unprepared. Sure, sometimes the players that the Pats acquire end up not meeting the Pats expectations (or ours). None of that means that BB, Caserio, et al, didn't perform due diligence and follow their best estimates.

The fact that we don't know or understand all the sh it that these guys work through for 100 hours a week for most of the calendar year does NOT mean that they're freakin' bumbling idiots who are simply making sh it up as they go along and, thus, getting constantly screwed on deals when OBVIOUSLY there were MUCH BETTER DEAL out there.
 
You are suggesting that a man who has structure to everything he does just forgot to handle trades correctly because it fits your narrative.

I think given the circumstances he did just fine. People are being stupid thinking Brissett had any value more than what he got. It’s turned out to be a good trade.

Garaopolo probably could have netted more at draft time but Belichick opted for the insurance policy. Very arguably a second plus the insurance had more value than a first.

You seem to be assuming that BB just called the Colts randomly and out of the blue, without him, Caserio, Adams and others having done their homework on the state of the Colts roster - and everyone else's.

I mean, these guys aren't exactly the NSA, but they certainly maintain a file (+tape) on pretty much every player in the NFL - files that, in many cases, were probably started back when those players were juniors, or even sophomores in college. They certainly have records of all their prior dealings with players' agents. They probably have a file on nearly every NFL coach from the positional level on up - their scheme preferences, their playcalling tendencies, their training methods, etc. They also know the GMs and personnel guys from all the other teams - how to approach them, what kinds of deals might appeal to them, how much they're likely willing to pay, or to ask for, etc.

They've done (and proposed) a lot of deals themselves, over the years, and probably have more accurate information on a lot of deals that didn't involve the Pats than we'll ever know.

In short, these guys know a metric crap-tonne of stuff that WE have no idea that they even know - because it's their damn job.

It seems to me absurd to think that Caserio and his staff don't have constantly-updated, player-replacement contingency plans in place for pretty much every situation. It's not really significantly different than maintaining a draft board. It seems absurd to me that anyone thinks that BB goes into any deal blindly.

When the Pats suddenly lost both Edelman and MM late in Camp, Caserio probably had a half dozen potential replacement WR acquisition plans to present within a couple days. There was some sort of discussion among decision makers that ranked those deals according to lowest "cost" (in terms of players, 2018 draft picks, cap hits, etc.), and ranked according to the likelihood that each deal could happen quickly and without much extraneous bargaining. Apparently, BB's call to the Colts was at the top of their list - and the deal got done. If it hadn't, there was another deal ready to be tried with another team for a different WR (that may or may not have involved Brissett).

And, no, I'm NOT making this up.

This kind of thing is NOT unique to the Pats. Most good FOs do something very similar. Last winter, I read a fairly long article describing in detail how the Seahawks' FO handles acquiring injury replacements. The readiness and the process for them is pretty much what I've describe above.

Sure, every team gets calls out-of-the-blue, like the one Lynch made to BB about JG. But it's not as if BB was at all unprepared. Sure, sometimes the players that the Pats acquire end up not meeting the Pats expectations (or ours). None of that means that BB, Caserio, et al, didn't perform due diligence and follow their best estimates.

The fact that we don't know or understand all the sh it that these guys work through for 100 hours a week for most of the calendar year does NOT mean that they're freakin' bumbling idiots who are simply making sh it up as they go along and, thus, getting constantly screwed on deals when OBVIOUSLY there were MUCH BETTER DEAL out there.

Fellow Pats Fans,

I’m not saying this is all on BB. I’ve already suggested it may be time for a shakeup in the intel (poor reading of the market on the quarterbacks), scouting (consistently yielding zero value picks, possibly due to drafting higher risk injury players than they thought), and that certainly the Kraft/Brady dynamic complicated the quarterback situation. Am I suggesting I shouldn’t bow to BB for his greatness or that it’s time to start stripping him of responsibilities? That would be mad. I’ve pointed out that the drafting, personnel moves, and in particular, the return value on the on quarterback trades, are very concerning. The overall organization decisions have yielded poor - not just subpar, but just poor - results for several years now.

This is a bottom line business. As I stated, we love to talk about the “steal” we got in Randy Moss, but the Raiders could use the same excuses. They had no idea how much he still had left, the organization had problem X and Y complicating matters, etc. But in the end, they were ripped off, just has the Patriots have done for many years to many teams. We don’t rationalize the Raiders moves. Much about making trades has to do with projecting values and future production, something they’ve normally excelled at. Why are we down to arguing about the reasons and trying to justify the results? Everyone can do that about anything.

For a few years, they been ending up the obvious loser on the wrong side of trades and draft picks, hence way, way less young talent to build on, less free agency gems, resulting in a much weaker and older overall roster we are accustomed to. Will I still take it and believe that we still have it better than any organization in sports? You bet I would. But it’s concerning. A series of bad trades, bad draft picks. Defending these bad trades and bad draft picks, which are judged on their ultimate results, with excuses like “how could we predict this?”, “but we had no idea what they went through”, “but these guys work hard”, “but they couldn’t predict this and that”, “but they are smarter” sounds like a lot of other fan bases rationalizing why things have not been successful. This team is Brady, Gronkowski, a few very good players, a lot of decent players, and lot of borderline NFL players. The overall roster isn’t great and the successsion plan as of now is not there. We’re usually talking at this time of the year about which awesome, high-ceiling player will get cut, not how low the bar is to make this team.

Another key point here is that adaptability is BB’s greatest asset of all. What may have been smart or brilliant five years ago may not be now, hence a potential change in personnel and scouting is in their best interest. I’m sure he’ll learn his lessons and adapt. Take a look at guys who have coached a long time, even an icon like Paul Brown. Ups and downs are unavoidable.
 
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Or maybe you could consider that even the best of them don’t get everything right.

You're absolutely right, but tread lightly, we don't want this thread morphing into a Malcolm Butler thread :)
 
so what is the point of this obvious jihad you promulgated in this thread? Time for BB to go?
 
so what is the point of this obvious jihad you promulgated in this thread? Time for BB to go?

No, definitely not. I'm just saying I expect a few things to happen.

First, never underestimate the Patriots; they'll be a good team at worst. But, I've been urging my friends here to take the over in Vegas on the Patriots for seven years in a row now, and they've looked at me sideways at such a high win total, but I've frequently been right. I'm telling them to take the under this year, or just don't bet it. This is not a good overall roster outside of Brady and Gronkowski. Could they win the Super Bowl? Sure - it would just take a lot more luck than in previous years. I just don't see enough prize horses on this roster to be a dominant team.

Second, I expect Belichick to make some changes. It's not like it's never happened before. We've been living in an absurdly good world for the past eight years. But much of this can be traced to 2010, the Patriots looked back at why their roster talent appeared to be rapidly thinning in 2009 and went back to the drawing board. During that time, the core players from the 2000s were winding down, much like I'd say the core players of the 2010s are now. They decided to focus their efforts on a different draft evaluation system. They knocked a few drafts out the of park and had an awesome, emerging roster that season, but they acknowledged that they made a lot of changes, so let's not act like they have a magic formula. What makes them great is that they adapt and change their formula frequently based on the market. They even switched to a 4-3, or a borderline 3-4/4-3 hybrid, which at the time we thought was incredible since BB had been so successful with the 3-4 throughout much of the decade. They also cut Moss, despite that just three years earlier they had made huge innovations throughout the league with the spread offense. They instead went to a 2-TE system. They also came very innovative in changing their defense to emphasize a base package consisting of 5-6 defensive backs, 2 linebackers, and 3-4 linemen.

So, I'm a glass-half-full person here when it comes to the future, but I think it's really obvious that the last few years, four years or so, are going to make them reevaluate some of the things they're doing. And there's no better person at breakdown mistakes and areas of improvement than Belichick.
 
the last few years, four years or so, are going to make them reevaluate some of the things they're doing. .
Last 4 years:
Won 2 Superbowls
Came within a whisker of winning a 3rd - if not for new catch rules being implemented for one game
Lost to the Broncos in the AFCCG in a building they should have never been playing in with a team decimated by injuries.

Whatever they have been doing, they should keep doing. There is always going to be misfires and things that dont work out they way the should. The teams that stay ahead of the pack take those risks.
 
John Lynch must be lying, and other GMs who said they didn’t even know Garoppolo was available are all in on the conspiracy to smear Belichick for no good reason. I’m in on it too. I must be secretly angry at him about benching Butler and second guessing everything, right? My goal here is to push some anti-Belichick or anti-Patriots agenda because that’s totally what I always do.

Everyone says, “oh, at the time Garoppolo and Brissett” blah blah blah. Do we use the same criteria when evaluating the Randy Moss trade? Every trade in NFL history is a wash because teams didn’t know at the time how it would unfold?
Brissett wasnt wanted here. His play last year proved why.

I haven’t seen other GMs making those comments.
If you want to believe Belichick doesn't understand how to make a trade, that’s up to you.
 
I can’t say the brissett trade has been a good one for us. It certainly may turn out that way but to this point Dorsett hasn’t shown that much.
He contributed to a Sb team last year.
 
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