Wtf happened with Brissett deal?

[Simpelton]

That’s a lot of words just to say you compare Brissett to a guy he isn’t comparable to.

Forgive me for actually taking the trouble to explain my reasoning.

 

[Simpelton]

Who is your backup QB that comes in after the trade deadline and can run the offense somewhat reliably if you offer JG to another team?

People like to **** on Hoyer but he is not a bad QB. He can become inconsistent and melt down but he still is able to run the same offense. He has experience with the system and most importantly the coaches know what he can and what he cant do. There are not too many unknowns with him which is vital. I get that fans have this almost morbid fascination with players they think "have potential and can be coached up" but from a strategic standpoint you rather have the known average player than an unknown who could go either way because you can build around known strengths and account for weaknesses. Anything is better than a mystery box when you are in the middle of a season.

So when considering compensation you gotta keep in mind that SF ate 10m (?) of Hoyers contract and releases him so we could sign him. This is not a small add-on. Without them doing it most probably there would have been no trade.

If you think BB can't adapt his offense on the fly to whatever quarterback he has, you're simply wrong.

One guy definitely worse than either Hoyer or Brissett is Matt Cassell, and in terms of playing style, Cassel is closer to Brissett than Brady, and has a weaker arm than any of these guys except possibly Hoyer.

And BB was able to regroup the offense and win 11 games with Cassell after Brady got Pollarded.

We have the offense we have becanse BB has Brady to work with, and we'd have some troubles running a different offense because the personnel isn't ideal, I get that. But don't for one minute think that BB can't get the most out of an offense run to favor a different quarterback. He's shown that he absolutely can.

 

[luuked]

If you think BB can't adapt his offense on the fly to whatever quarterback he has, you're simply wrong.

One guy definitely worse than either Hoyer or Brissett is Matt Cassell, and in terms of playing style, Cassel is closer to Brissett than Brady, and has a weaker arm than any of these guys except possibly Hoyer.

And BB was able to regroup the offense and win 11 games with Cassell after Brady got Pollarded.

We have the offense we have becanse BB has Brady to work with, and we'd have some troubles running a different offense because the personnel isn't ideal, I get that. But don't for one minute think that BB can't get the most out of an offense run to favor a different quarterback. He's shown that he absolutely can.

Your point being?

This is where you show me where I said that the staff is incapable of doing that. Unless building strawmen is all you are after.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I doubt Roger even believes Deflategate was real. They thought they nailed the Patriots, turned out whoever tipped them off believed a dumb rumor and they had to jump through hoops to find a minuscule amount of PSI missing to justify it. They would have gotten away with their bafoonery too if Mike Florio hadn’t gone after them every day for months.

Mike Florio is the only well-known sports writer/blogger outside of the New England area who had the balls to look at the evidence and call the NFL outright frauds and say, yes, I’m not a tin foil hat guy but this was an actual conspiracy with fake evidence and a kangaroo court. When the initial reports came out, Florio was grabbing his pitchfork like every other member of the media, though he was one of the few who was actually later angered that the initial PSI report was fake, absolutely false reporting (confirmed by memo from NFL to Patriots with vastly exaggerated ball numbers, trying to “trick them into confessing.”). I guess Florio is the only writer with any self-respect and intelligence (used to be an attorney.). He’s basically gone into “zero credibility” takes on anything Goodell says anymore since DefameGate, which should be the norm.

 

[maineman209]

Of course they knew a move at the deadline was possible. They also projected that JB was not going to be able to backup Brady at a satisfying level. Which is why they moved on from him at the end of his second camp. He was on his way to being cut. Dorsett was a bonus not a priority in any way.

I dont know what to tell you but it is quite obvious what happened. And it seems like you are the one who can't even add the right numbers together.

I'm not 100% sure that BB knew, at the time he traded Brissett, that he'd actually be able to get anything significantly better than a 3rd-round comp for JG by the trade deadline. I'm sure he was looking for a deal, but he may well have more or less accepted that JG would end up walking in the spring of this year.

Anyway, I seem to recall that the Niners offer didn't happen until nearly the deadline.

 

[luuked]

I'm not 100% sure that BB knew, at the time he traded Brissett, that he'd actually be able to get anything significantly better than a 3rd-round comp for JG by the trade deadline. I'm sure he was looking for a deal, but he may well have more or less accepted that JG would end up walking in the spring of this year.

Anyway, I seem to recall that the Niners offer didn't happen until nearly the deadline.

I said they knew a move at the deadline was possible. Of course they didn't plan it months in advance or anyting. But to claim -- like some here did -- that they traded JB because they had no intention of moving JG is just wrong. One had nothing to do with the other.

Hoyer being in SF is most probably the perfect storm that made this trade possible.

 

[Simpelton]

Your point being?

This is where you show me where I said that the staff is incapable of doing that. Unless building strawmen is all you are after.

When you make the argument that Hoyer is a better backup than a younger player who still retains significant upside, because he plays a similar style as Brady, you're making the argument that the most important thing about being a backup quarterback is not requiring a different offensive strategy when you're brought into the game.

And I'm sorry, that being the case, you ARE arguing that the staff isn't going to successfully account for which quarterback is in the game and adjust their gameplan accordingly. Which is nonsense.

There is NOTHING wrong with having a backup QB that plays a different style of ball -- hell, if the backup is good enough he can be used to give a different look to a defense, or to jumpstart a sluggish offense the way Foles did after Wentz went down this year. That's what early-years Aaron Rodgers gave the Packers. It's a GOOD THING.

Also to say that Hoyer was a big part of the Jimmy G deal is nonsense. Hoyer was a convenience. Nothing more. Without Hoyer, BB would have signed a backup QB off the street. It's not like Brady was going to be sitting many snaps out for the rest of the year anyhow.

 

[maineman209]

Speaking for myself ..

When you make the argument that Hoyer is a better backup than a younger player who still retains significant upside, because he plays a similar style as Brady, you're making the argument that the most important thing about being a backup quarterback is not requiring a different offensive strategy when you're brought into the game.

It's not entirely clear to me that "Hoyer is a better backup ....", or that it's the argument being made. Such an argument seems to ignore the timing, the sequence of events that actually transpired.

At the time Brissett was traded, JG was clearly the better backup, and - AT THAT MOMENT - Brissett was expendable, regardless how the Pats may or may not have felt about his development potential overall, or in the narrower context of an offense constructed around Brady.

With the relatively recent and sudden losses of both Edelman and MM, the Pats needed a WR and the Colts needed a QB. The Pats didn't have a lot of cap space to go fishing for WRs.

Fast forward to the trade deadline (Brissett is long gone and not coming back).

BB has a good draft pick trade offer for JG, but it leaves him without ANY backup QB. However, Hoyer is there. He knows the Pats system and fits the existing offensive personnel. No need to spend precious time training a brand new guy. No need for adjusting the offense to a different QB style. It's the middle of the season, and the Pats are making a post season run. AT THAT MOMENT, there simply was no other JG replacement who came anywhere near what Hoyer offered in the larger context of the 2017 season.

There was never a choice between Brissett and Hoyer. Anything else is just a bunch of "ifs" and "woulda, coulda, shoulda".

Also to say that Hoyer was a big part of the Jimmy G deal is nonsense.

It's not nonsense at all. For the reasons outlined above, the inclusion of Hoyer probably sealed that deal. I'm really not sure at all that BB makes the deal without Hoyer. I might not have.

 

[brdmaverick]

I'm very late to the party here, but it's laughable that we are complaining about a Brissett trade.

He was never the answer, and nor do I think he'll ever be ANYONE's answer at starting QB.

I'm not losing sleep over what we did or didn't get for him.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Congrats to @HailHydra for creating a thread about a 3rd string QB to last this long.

 

[brdmaverick]

Forgive me for actually taking the trouble to explain my reasoning.

I'm not saying I agree with your arguments, but I can certainly appreciate this response. Well played, sir.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

At the time Brissett was traded, JG was clearly the better backup, and - AT THAT MOMENT - Brissett was expendable, regardless how the Pats may or may not have felt about his development potential overall, or in the narrower context of an offense constructed around Brady.

With the relatively recent and sudden losses of both Edelman and MM, the Pats needed a WR and the Colts needed a QB. The Pats didn't have a lot of cap space to go fishing for WRs.

This is exactly the type of reasoning used by the Patriots. I'd go further and say the Patriots realized that Brissett was not going to be a great fit for their offensive system as well. It's incredibly flawed reasoning, but that appears to be how they looked at it, too.

A player's price should be determined by the market, unless the team is really confident that they are dealing with one team that also has a similar grasp on the market and a reasonable price for the player. The Patriots wanted to trade Brissett, and apparently quickly, so they fire sold him to the Colts for a dime-a-dozen player in Dorsett.

This probably would have been business as usual, but for the very important fact that Brissett (a) is a quarterback, which makes a huge difference due to the premium on the position, and (b) fits much better into other offenses.

Patriots spent a third-rounder on Brissett to begin with. Considering at least one other team thought he was already good enough to be the face of their team for one season, I don't understand how they could then trade him for Brandin Cooks ultra-lite edition and think that's a reasonable deal.

 

[Oswlek]

When you make the argument that Hoyer is a better backup than a younger player who still retains significant upside, because he plays a similar style as Brady, you're making the argument that the most important thing about being a backup quarterback is not requiring a different offensive strategy when you're brought into the game.

And I'm sorry, that being the case, you ARE arguing that the staff isn't going to successfully account for which quarterback is in the game and adjust their gameplan accordingly. Which is nonsense.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the conversation strikes me as being more nuanced than you are making it. There are any number of reasons why a team may value system consistency highly while still being capable of making adjustments. Maybe it's mere preference. Maybe the roster is constructed in such a way that personnel would limit flexibility. Maybe you've determined that certain skill sets are integral to your system, such that a "better" overall player is less useful without these requisite skills, and it simply isn't worth the effort to adapt your offense to the skills they do have.

All these factors are even more pronounced when you determine the QBs in question will not develop to the point where you could eventually build around the skills they do have.

 

[maineman209]

This is exactly the type of reasoning used by the Patriots. I'd go further and say the Patriots realized that Brissett was not going to be a great fit for their offensive system as well. It's incredibly flawed reasoning, but that appears to be how they looked at it, too.

A player's price should be determined by the market, unless the team is really confident that they are dealing with one team that also has a similar grasp on the market and a reasonable price for the player. The Patriots wanted to trade Brissett, and apparently quickly, so they fire sold him to the Colts for a dime-a-dozen player in Dorsett.

This probably would have been business as usual, but for the very important fact that Brissett (a) is a quarterback, which makes a huge difference due to the premium on the position, and (b) fits much better into other offenses.

Patriots spent a third-rounder on Brissett to begin with. Considering at least one other team thought he was already good enough to be the face of their team for one season, I don't understand how they could then trade him for Brandin Cooks ultra-lite edition and think that's a reasonable deal.

The Pats/Brady have had a pretty good run of success using "dime-a-dozen" WRs that they saw something in at the time. Hogan, Edelman, Welker, etc. We don't know yet about Dorsett. Or at least, I don't know yet, having been born without the prescience gene.

While it's all well and good to postulate an "ideal value" for a player, based on his position, the real world constraints of the moment often alter that value. The urgency of a given situation sometimes causes "the premium on the position" to go out the window.

Since we don't know what BB's perception of the roster situation was at the time - or, at least I don't know, since I was also born without the ESP gene - to him, it may well have seemed like the perfect deal, or the best he was going to get under the circumstances he was trying to deal with.

 

[HailHydra]

Congrats to @HailHydra for creating a thread about a 3rd string QB to last this long.

It morphed

 

[maineman209]

It morphed

Damn! AGAIN??!!

This shyte's worse than gravitonium!

 

[NG Pats Fan]

When have you seen him play with the 1s in a game when he got to follow a gameplan with the Patriots?

I agree that if Brady has a season ender nothing matters anyway. But your backup QB is also here to be able to get you over a handful series or maybe 2-3 games in case something non-season ending would happen to QB1. And I honestly think that depending on the opponent Josh/BB/Hoyer would be able to survive for 2-4 weeks without throwing the entire season (i. e. going 2-2).

Brissett was clearly unable to run anything close to our offense. Understanding the offense is clearly important otherwise your preseason offense will become your regular season offense (ie. runs and vanilla routes).

I get what your saying...but come on. Have you watched Hoyer play? He’s barely capable of making any good NFL throws past 20 yards. Even the 10-15 yard slants he sucks at leading the open man. What do you think Hoyers Record would be this year If he was starting QB for the patriots?

As far as Hoyer “surviving” 4 games, that’s possible. But I don’t see it because I am having a hard time finding one good trait in hoyers Qb play. He obviously does not have an nfl arm, he can’t run, he doesn’t have good pocket presence, he doesn’t do a good job finding his 2nd and 3rd read. In order for Hoyer to win a game for New England, he would have to become captain checkdown. His YPA would be something ridiculous like 4 or 5. Because he can’t throw down field accurately.

 

[LaterGator]

Speaking for myself ..



It's not entirely clear to me that "Hoyer is a better backup ....", or that it's the argument being made. Such an argument seems to ignore the timing, the sequence of events that actually transpired.

At the time Brissett was traded, JG was clearly the better backup, and - AT THAT MOMENT - Brissett was expendable, regardless how the Pats may or may not have felt about his development potential overall, or in the narrower context of an offense constructed around Brady.

With the relatively recent and sudden losses of both Edelman and MM, the Pats needed a WR and the Colts needed a QB. The Pats didn't have a lot of cap space to go fishing for WRs.

Fast forward to the trade deadline (Brissett is long gone and not coming back).

BB has a good draft pick trade offer for JG, but it leaves him without ANY backup QB. However, Hoyer is there. He knows the Pats system and fits the existing offensive personnel. No need to spend precious time training a brand new guy. No need for adjusting the offense to a different QB style. It's the middle of the season, and the Pats are making a post season run. AT THAT MOMENT, there simply was no other JG replacement who came anywhere near what Hoyer offered in the larger context of the 2017 season.

There was never a choice between Brissett and Hoyer. Anything else is just a bunch of "ifs" and "woulda, coulda, shoulda".



It's not nonsense at all. For the reasons outlined above, the inclusion of Hoyer probably sealed that deal. I'm really not sure at all that BB makes the deal without Hoyer. I might not have.

I totally agree your reasoning. Well done.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

And I'm sorry, that being the case, you ARE arguing that the staff isn't going to successfully account for which quarterback is in the game and adjust their gameplan accordingly. Which is nonsense.

Sure, they can adjust, but they can only adjust so far. Hoyer allows them to still use their existing people in their optimal roles. Brissett requires them to play people in a way that doesn't give you the best value for who they are and may not be all that useful in the kind of offense that Brissett can play in.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

The Pats/Brady have had a pretty good run of success using "dime-a-dozen" WRs that they saw something in at the time. Hogan, Edelman, Welker, etc. We don't know yet about Dorsett. Or at least, I don't know yet, having been born without the prescience gene.

While it's all well and good to postulate an "ideal value" for a player, based on his position, the real world constraints of the moment often alter that value. The urgency of a given situation sometimes causes "the premium on the position" to go out the window.

Since we don't know what BB's perception of the roster situation was at the time - or, at least I don't know, since I was also born without the ESP gene - to him, it may well have seemed like the perfect deal, or the best he was going to get under the circumstances he was trying to deal with.

I've been corrected in how the deal went down, but it seems to look worse and worse. The Patriots contacted the Colts and either asked for Dorsett or asked for what the Colts would give for Brissett, as they were trying to trade him, and they accepted the offer. That seems pretty idiotic, or at the least, it seems like a terrible approach to maximize the value on a trade, but it seems to be the same way the Garappolo deal went down as well. There were GMs commenting to writers about the Garoppolo trade that they had no idea he was available, but the 49ers got a sweetheart deal as the only bidders. Call one team and take their first low-ball offer rather than actually getting value for better players/draft picks, in the midst of being very short-stacked when it comes to young talent.

Even if Dorsett ends up being good, this was still a bad deal, and it's crazy to think that there's no market at all times for a good starting or backup QB when teams are still trading multiple high picks to move up in the draft for college QBs but rarely any other position. I think the Patriots themselves were trying to move up themselves this season to grab a quarterback (not sure which one, or maybe more than one.) Yet they just gave away a couple of QBs that are valuable to other teams and got a whole second round draft pick to show for it.