Wickersham book discussion

[NG Pats Fan]

Bill has had some terrible drafts.

Players that looked promising like Winovich and Bentley have regressed.

Jonnu Smith hasn't looked like a good FA addition yet either.

Hopefully it's just a slow start to season.

We really won't know how good this team is until November

i am no prophet but I can watch this team on film and know we do not have enough playmakers to win 9 games. I’ll be shocked if we win 7-8. I think this is a 5 win team

 

[DropKickFlutie]

It's not dissing nor convoluted.

Bill has won the most Superbowls, but that doesn't make him greater than Walsh.

Bill hasn't earned solo GOAT status. You don't like the facts I bring up because they hurt your feelings like Josh McDaniels hurts your feelings.

Facts are facts. Walsh would have won as many Superbowls as Bill has if he kept coaching.

That doesn't take away from Bill, it just puts into context his achievements and the achievements of other all time great coaches

You will find nobody who thinks walsh is a better hc than belichick. Like Montana has already been surpassed by brady.

Not sure why you're wasting your time making up weird arguments to denigrate belichick

 

[NG Pats Fan]

You will find nobody who thinks walsh is a better hc than belichick. Like Montana has already been surpassed by brady.

Not sure why you're wasting your time making up weird arguments to denigrate belichick

for all your McDaniels bashing…Belichick has brought him back after his disasters with denver and St Louis. Why is that?

 

[Zarozzor]

Question. Do you truly believe that NE wins that game with 2017 Butler ?

Yes, I really do. He makes one of those stops.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

It’s fine to give Bill a few years, but there’s no way the Bucs were stacked. The Patriots were favored to win more games on the day Brady went to Tampa.

Patriots Still Favored to Win More Games Than Buccaneers in 2020

In a head-to-head prop wager, odds favor the New England Patriots to win more games during the 2020 NFL regular season than the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

www.sportsbettingdime.com

Favored by whom? Looking back you going to tell me the Bucs didn't have more weapons on offense and a very good defense?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Favored by whom? Looking back you going to tell me the Bucs didn't have more weapons on offense and a very good defense?

By oddsmakers. The Patriots without Brady were favored to win more than the Bucs with Brady. The Patriots were thought to have a much better overall defense, a much better offensive line, a better running game, better special teams, and better coaching. People just focus on the Bucs receivers, which at the time were considered their only big assets, Evans and Godwin. There was plenty of doubt about now they’d mesh with Brady, too.

There’s so much hindsight revisionism, which is why I’ve posted that article as an objective take.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

for all your McDaniels bashing…Belichick has brought him back after his disasters with denver and St Louis. Why is that?

same with patricia

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

This season has just started and next isn’t even discussable, much less 5-6 years down the road.
Can’t you see what you are doing? You just projected 5-6 losing seasons on a man who just had his first in 20 years.
Yes if belichick stops being belichick then it would change people’s feelings about him but he hasn’t.

Why would you play the “if his future is the exact opposite of his track record” game? It’s silly.

Dismissing 20 years of his success is ridiculous.

I will second what the last poster said. How many losing seasons would it take for you to question Belichick? Genuinely curious.

Lets put aside the debate and I just want to know where you stand on that.

I can’t answer that. It hasn’t happened.

 

[Boomer B]

By oddsmakers. The Patriots without Brady were favored to win more than the Bucs with Brady. The Patriots were thought to have a much better overall defense, a much better offensive line, a better running game, better special teams, and better coaching. People just focus on the Bucs receivers, which at the time were considered their only big assets, Evans and Godwin. There was plenty of doubt about now they’d mesh with Brady, too.

There’s so much hindsight revisionism, which is why I’ve posted that article as an objective take.

You’re a 100% right. On this board there were many, many posters saying the Bucs O-Line was trash and Brady would get killed. They said the secondary sucked, the coaching sucked.....It’s complete revisionist history to say the Bucs were some loaded juggernaut that everyone thought would win the Super Bowl. In the NFC they were well behind the Saints, Packers, Seahawks, 49ers....

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

You’re a 100% right. On this board there were many, many posters saying the Bucs O-Line was trash and Brady would get killed. They said the secondary sucked, the coaching sucked.....It’s complete revisionist history to say the Bucs were some loaded juggernaut that everyone thought would win the Super Bowl. In the NFC they were well behind the Saints, Packers, Seahawks, 49ers....

And it gets even more damning because so many here scoffed at the idea Brady would have personnel input in Tampa. It was like 98% negativity about that here - almost a rage about the idea of an egomaniac player calling the shots - and how he’d try to build some dumb fantasy football team. This was one of the main reasons people were glad he went to Tampa, who they thought were desperate and that having Brady influencing personnel decisions is an example of why they’re a joke while the Patriots would never allow it.

Now…well, it turns out a key reason for having a “stacked team” is Brady’s lobbying for Gronk, AB, and Fournette. Not sure we need to get into it too far, but suffice to say the Patriots could have certainly had their own “stacked team” too with those guys, all of whom played below market due to Brady.

And yet…they try to take those acquisitions and load up a really backwards argument that it isn't a fair because Brady got all those players and Bill didn’t. The irony.

 

[PF_SU]

By oddsmakers. The Patriots without Brady were favored to win more than the Bucs with Brady. The Patriots were thought to have a much better overall defense, a much better offensive line, a better running game, better special teams, and better coaching. People just focus on the Bucs receivers, which at the time were considered their only big assets, Evans and Godwin. There was plenty of doubt about now they’d mesh with Brady, too.

There’s so much hindsight revisionism, which is why I’ve posted that article as an objective take.

This take does not seem to be quite as clear-cut as you are trying to make it:

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

You’re a 100% right. On this board there were many, many posters saying the Bucs O-Line was trash and Brady would get killed. They said the secondary sucked, the coaching sucked.....It’s complete revisionist history to say the Bucs were some loaded juggernaut that everyone thought would win the Super Bowl. In the NFC they were well behind the Saints, Packers, Seahawks, 49ers....

Not all of us. Some of us liked that OL and thought they were better than given credit for. Esp once they drafted Wirfs. Don't know how people were trashing that OL if they watched them. Winston was constantly putting himself and them in a bad position.

And it gets even more damning because so many here scoffed at the idea Brady would have personnel input in Tampa. It was like 98% negativity about that here - almost a rage about the idea of an egomaniac player calling the shots - and how he’d try to build some dumb fantasy football team. This was one of the main reasons people were glad he went to Tampa, who they thought were desperate and that having Brady influencing personnel decisions is an example of why they’re a joke while the Patriots would never allow it.

Now…well, it turns out a key reason for having a “stacked team” is Brady’s lobbying for Gronk, AB, and Fournette. Not sure we need to get into it too far, but suffice to say the Patriots could have certainly had their own “stacked team” too with those guys, all of whom played below market due to Brady.

And yet…they try to take those acquisitions and load up a really backwards argument that it isn't a fair because Brady got all those players and Bill didn’t. The irony.

And this is funny bc that team started peaking when they actually implementing what Brady was saying.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

This take does not seem to be quite as clear-cut as you are trying to make it:
View attachment 36144

You’re citing futures SB markets, which are frequently adjusted for large bets to cover book liabilities. The O/U on win totals there is still roughly equal (just before the season) 9.5 for TB (3rd place schedule) and 9 for NE (1st place schedule). They have almost the same power rating, which is the number which shows overall strength.

However, the point is taken that the public began liking the Bucs better. Yet, that’s largely because unlike the snapshot I provided from March which is the logical point to discuss since that’s when Brady joined “the dream team”, by the time these odds were posted Brady had recruited Gronkowski and Fournette.

 

[Free_Pacman]

It’s fine to give Bill a few years, but there’s no way the Bucs were stacked. The Patriots were favored to win more games on the day Brady went to Tampa.

Patriots Still Favored to Win More Games Than Buccaneers in 2020

In a head-to-head prop wager, odds favor the New England Patriots to win more games during the 2020 NFL regular season than the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

www.sportsbettingdime.com

Come on, man. You don’t think Brady, who explicitly wanted to go to a team where he had a voice in personnel matters, knew the Buccaneers were going to acquire Gronkowski and Brown- his two good friends. Really?

Your odds article came out in March before either of those guys were acquired. Look at the actual odds in the summer:

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Not all of us. Some of us liked that OL and thought they were better than given credit for. Esp once they drafted Wirfs. Don't know how people were trashing that OL if they watched them. Winston was constantly putting himself and them in a bad position.

And this is funny bc that team started peaking when they actually implementing what Brady was saying.

It’s fair to say the Bucs were better than most perceived in March 2020. I liked their defense from looking at the advanced stats and seeing how all the Winston turnovers made them look bad…their run defense was dominant in 2019. Yes, I remember you were high on their OL, and I think some others here felt Brady would improve the protection.

They were a good team to join...a lot to unlock because of what 30 INTs can bury. At the same time, there were a lot of big concerns.

There were so many Told Ya So’s last year after Brady joined the Bucs and they struggled early. After Cam’s big performance against Seattle in week 2, I remember some very strong opinion pieces about how the Patriots had won and Brady had lost the gamble. Brady and the Bucs were largely written off all the way up until November, as they were 7-5. Dream team? No way.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Come on, man. You don’t think Brady, who explicitly wanted to go to a team where he had a voice in personnel matters, knew the Buccaneers were going to acquire Gronkowski and Brown- his two good friends. Really?

Your odds article came out in March before either of those guys were acquired. Look at the actual odds in the summer:

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

I stated exactly that about the additions and timeframe.

Gronk - Yes, I’m guessing that was discussed in advance.

AB was subject to suspension, Arians said he didn’t want him, and it’s unlikely he’d have even signed with the Bucs if they didn’t have injuries at WR. He also took less money. So definitely not a certainty there by any means.

The point here is that the Patriots were a team projected to be a bubble playoff contender and so were the Bucs. Point spreads, division odds, over/unders, consensus projections confirm all this. Other than some sharps on the SB futures betting, not many thought the Bucs were some great team and not many thought the Patriots would face plant. That’s hindsight narrative.

The link you sent has Bucs at 10 and Pats at 9.5. Doesn’t change the point at all. My point isn’t that the Patriots were supposed to be better; it’s that the teams were in the same range.

I won’t argue that by September, the Bucs looked better on paper, but the gap was pretty small. Bucs were perceived as more volatile with a higher ceiling but not reliable; Patriots were thought to be more steady and would improve over the season. In the early part of the season, many thought the Patriots were a better overall squad. This wasn’t rags and riches with BB and TB.

 

[Lagaffe_07]

You can slice it just fine.

The fundamental truth of this dynasty and what is was built on is ensuring only players play that are prepared to play. Those whom are not, don't.

I have no problem with that at the beginning of the game but what do you have to lose playing unprepared Butler when the players that are prepared to play are getting demolished? IMO, nothing. At least, you can say you have tried everything to win the game.

If Butler was that unprepared during the week leading up to the SB why was he active? You are gonna tell me Bill decided less than 90 minutes before the game that he was unprepared?

 

[amfootball]

What are you basing this assessment on?

The organization and demands on the players are the same as last year, the year before and the same as it was in 2008 and 2002.

If you want to say the culture has not produced results in 1.25 years then that makes sense.

Player buy in. Hightower complaining about long meetings. McCourty saying we have to stop living in the past. There are big leaks in the dam so to speak and that comes from losing. We need to start winning again or else there will be more fractures. I think that is the biggest reason probably that Bill did not want to start Jones this year. Rookies don't win in this league. That is why I wish he spent more capital on a bridge Qb and got Jimmy or Bridgewater. Winning is the foundation for any culture/system.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

No I criticize where it is deserved.

Bill has done nothing the last 2 years that deserves high praise.

I don't want him fired, I want him to do better and grow from his mistakes.

I'm a fan and I demand results every year.

That's what fans of the team

Belichick has never won a division title without brady. 9 years (going on) without brady and no division titles

with brady as his starting QB, 17 seasons. 16 division titles (2002 lost on tie breaker)

The other teams get paid too. Perhaps when manning retired?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Player buy in. Hightower complaining about long meetings. McCourty saying we have to stop living in the past. There are big leaks in the dam so to speak and that comes from losing. We need to start winning again or else there will be more fractures. I think that is the biggest reason probably that Bill did not want to start Jones this year. Rookies don't win in this league. That is why I wish he spent more capital on a bridge Qb and got Jimmy or Bridgewater. Winning is the foundation for any culture/system.

Reminder.

Hightower came back voluntarily.

DMC has been here since dirt was invented.

It's been 3 games.

Fans sure are quick to call the dog dead around here ..