Wickersham book discussion

[RobertWeathers]

And instead they played Bademosi and Richards. I'd have taken a one-legged Butler over them.

No matter how you slice it, Pats coaching staff doesn't cover itself with glory over the decisions made.

You can slice it just fine.

The fundamental truth of this dynasty and what is was built on is ensuring only players play that are prepared to play. Those whom are not, don't.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Replacing Bill is a lot easier than replacing Brady.

Really?

Franchise-altering HoF coaches are a dime a dozen?

 

[gobesmug]

Comments:

a.) LOL @ this thread....yall are eating right into WickerSHAM's hands....

b.) Kraft calling BB an a-hole? So? Kraft is still paying BB 10+ million a year to coach the team. "Idiot Savant"? Well...at the time Kraft's hiring was controversial given the BB resignation press conference in NY.

c.) Players pissed about a letter BB sent to a certain guy? Remember that BB also did not accept the medal of freedom 4 years later and learned a lot about social issues in 2020 (he even said so in his own words).

d.) BB not meeting Brady? Who cares? He might have actually been busy that night. And when Brady left...didn't BB say that his career was...I quote, "unfathomably great"?

e.) BB hugging Goodell? OK, that's damning! LOL!

f.) O'Brien trying to get fired? LMAO!!! I am not even sure he would have been a replacement coach here...ASSUMING Brady had any input.

g.) As for the Butler benching....I'd like to paste a quote from Butler himself:

"I feel like this was the reason: I got kind of sick. I went to the hospital. They probably thought I was kind of late on the game plan; I wasn’t as locked in as I should be and could have been a matchup deal. It could have been anything. But Bill Belichick has been doing this for a very long time. He took a veteran out of Super Bowl XLIX (against the Seahawks) and put in a first-year rookie, and that turned out right, so you could never question his decision. It didn’t work out right (against the Eagles). It didn’t work out the best for me or him or the New England Patriots. But I can say he won more than he lost, so it is what it is. I always have love for New England, Bill Belichick, Mr. Kraft, all those guys. Life just goes on.”

h.) Last, but not least...it is ok to be critical of personnel decisions or in-game decisions, but to completely denounce our head coach...especially after the man delivered us 6 Lombardis is just...... SMFH! The man is a walking encyclopedia of football history...he has a library of books that nobody else has. Yall don't think he'll be writing a book someday when he's done with the game? I'll wait for THAT book.

Yeah Butler said that Bill's decision didn't work out against the Eagles.

Because it didn't.

Bill Made a mistake benching Butler the entire game.

If Bill was right, the defense would have made more than 1 stop the entire game.

 

[gobesmug]

They needed several.

The Patriots were winning 33-32 with 9mins left.

If they get the stop there all the momentum goes with the Pats.

One stop changes everything

 

[RobertWeathers]

The Patriots were winning 33-32 with 9mins left.

If they get the stop there all the momentum goes with the Pats.

One stop changes everything

Sorry. It's a hypothetical. Multiple plays remained in the game which could have gone either way.

 

[gobesmug]

Really?

Franchise-altering HoF coaches are a dime a dozen?

More so than greatest QB ever.

HOF QBs make more of an impact than HOF HC.

Kubriak was a bust with the Texans. When he got Peyton in Denver he becamd a genius.

Andy Reid was a laughing stock. With Mahomes he has been to the AFC championship game 3 years in a row and went to back to back Superbowls and won 1. I wonder who the QB was of the opposing team.

Mike McCarthy has been great as a HC when he hasn't had Rodgers or Prescott... Oh wait.

Jimmy Johnson was amazing with the Dolphins after Marino retired.

Bill has 1 playoff appearance in his whole career without Brady.

Yes Bill is one of the GOATs, but Bruce Arians just won a Superbowl because of the GOAT QB

 

[gobesmug]

Sorry. It's a hypothetical. Multiple plays remained in the game which could have gone either way.

You are right, Bill was brilliant.

His def gameplay from that game should be in the HOF

 

[lancerman]

Really?

Franchise-altering HoF coaches are a dime a dozen?

Right now Brady looks like he is the more franchise altering of the two. Brady didn't alter the franchise tremendously in 2000 with a 5-11 record, or last year with a 7-9 record, or 2008 when with a 11-5 record but unable to make the playoffs on a very easy schedule. And he's not looking so hot this year either. Also with only one winning record with the Browns and only 1 playoff appearance thus far in 8 years (now 9 if he misses this year) without Brady, there's a legit conversation over whether Bill is that franchise altering or if he's just a very great coach who happened to find the greatest player in the history of the league who has won at every stage of his career.

Not saying that Bill isn't valuable. But right now there does need to be some perspective on what exactly was the piece holding **** together. Because we still made the playoffs in 2019 with Brady despite the same crappy team, and we probably have a playoff shot with Brady in 2020 and certainly have a winning record that year at least. I'm much more concerned about finding the next QB right now. You get an elite tier QB, and your team can endure a lot of blemishes, even if the coaching is one. We've seen Bill and other great coaches not overcome bad QB play.

 

[RobertWeathers]

You are right, Bill was brilliant.

His def gameplay from that game should be in the HOF

I don't believe I said he was brilliant.

 

[gobesmug]

I don't believe I said he was brilliant.

No but you think he made the right decision by benching Butler.

That would only be true if that decision worked out.

Butler admits he wasn't feeling well in practice or wasn't as focused as he should have been in practice. But he absolutely thinks he should have been put in that game and thinks he was well enough at that point to help.

If you want to take Butler's quotes that's fine but take the whole thing. Butler has never agreed he should have benched, just that he can understand why Bill made his decision.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Right now Brady looks like he is the more franchise altering of the two. Brady didn't alter the franchise tremendously in 2000 with a 5-11 record, or last year with a 7-9 record, or 2008 when with a 11-5 record but unable to make the playoffs on a very easy schedule. And he's not looking so hot this year either. Also with only one winning record with the Browns and only 1 playoff appearance thus far in 8 years (now 9 if he misses this year) without Brady, there's a legit conversation over whether Bill is that franchise altering or if he's just a very great coach who happened to find the greatest player in the history of the league who has won at every stage of his career.

Not saying that Bill isn't valuable. But right now there does need to be some perspective on what exactly was the piece holding **** together. Because we still made the playoffs in 2019 with Brady despite the same crappy team, and we probably have a playoff shot with Brady in 2020 and certainly have a winning record that year at least. I'm much more concerned about finding the next QB right now. You get an elite tier QB, and your team can endure a lot of blemishes, even if the coaching is one. We've seen Bill and other great coaches not overcome bad QB play.

My point isn't about marginalizing Brady.

It's the notion of a franchise-altering GM/HC can be had by ordering on Amazon.

Before Bill- Pats suck with a sprinkling of a few decent years.
Bill was hired in 2000
Bill's job was to to raise the talent level and win championships.
Bill drafted Brady in 2000
Bill plays Brady and they win 6 Super Bowls
Bill's moves altered the franchise.

That is history.

Sorry but I am sick and tired of Bill being marginalized and dismissed by members of this board. It's oozes of entitlement and a total disregard and lack of appreciation for how hard is is to win a SB let alone 6 of them.

Yes you need a great team and great QB play.....but someone has to assemble the talent and coach it to execute.

That was Bill.

 

[Boomer B]

Wow, we're 16 pages into this thread and it hasn't even been 12 hours since it was posted...this has to be some sort of record

I guess you weren’t here after Butler was benched in the SB

 

[gobesmug]

Really?

Franchise-altering HoF coaches are a dime a dozen?

You clearly didn't read my entire post because it's all about context.

In comparison to Brady, yes Bill is easier to replace.

In a bubble, Bill is not easy to replace.

I never said HOF HCs are easy to replace. But they are easier to replace than HOF QBs and I don't know how anyone could argue that.

All you have to do is look at every single winning QB vs HC.

HCs without their QB are mediocre. QBs have won go on to win with coaches that didn't have the same prestige. Brady with Arians, Peyton with Kubriak as most recent examples

 

[lancerman]

By the way, nobody should care too much about this. Brady is 44 and Bill is 69. They spent all their best years together. This is all just posturing and quibbling over why they didn’t spend 2-3 more years together.

The correct response is, “6 rangs, don’t care”

 

[RobertWeathers]

No but you think he made the right decision by benching Butler.

I didn't say or think that either.

To be clear I am interpreting what I think happened and reasoning why Bill did what he did.

I've been saying the same ****ing thing for 4 years now.

 

[RobertWeathers]

You clearly didn't read my entire post because it's all about context.

In comparison to Brady, yes Bill is easier to replace.

In a bubble, Bill is not easy to replace.

I never said HOF HCs are easy to replace. But they are easier to replace than HOF QBs and I don't know how anyone could argue that.

All you have to do is look at every single winning QB vs HC.

HCs without their QB are mediocre. QBs have won go on to win with coaches that didn't have the same prestige. Brady with Arians, Peyton with Kubriak as most recent examples

I read it.

I don't agree with it.

It is 1000 times harder to find a franchise-altering, HoF coach/GM than a franchise QB or a QB that can win a SB.

 

[gobesmug]

My point isn't about marginalizing Brady.

It's the notion of a franchise-altering GM/HC can be had by ordering on Amazon.

Before Bill- Pats suck with a sprinkling of a few decent years.
Bill was hired in 2000
Bill's job was to to raise the talent level and win championships.
Bill drafted Brady in 2000
Bill plays Brady and they win 6 Super Bowls
Bill's moves altered the franchise.

That is history.

Sorry but I am sick and tired of Bill's being marginalized and dismissed by members of this board. It's oozes of entitlement and a total disregard and lack of appreciation for how hard is is to win a SB let alone 6 of them.

Yes you need a great team and great QB play.....but someone has to assemble the talent and coach it to execute.

That was Bill.

Before Bill, Pete Carroll with the same QB and close to same roster never had record below 8-8.

He went 10-6 and won a playoff game with Bledsoe.

9-7 and made the playoffs.

Then he went 8-8 and was canned.

Bill with the same team went 5-11.

Explain that if Bill was some magician that makes any roster a Superbowl contender?

To be clear, I respect Bill and think he is one of the GOATs. He was the perfect HC for Brady and the Pats. I just think he isn't above reproach and criticism.

 

[gobesmug]

I didn't say or think that either.

To be clear I am interpreting what I think happened and reasoning why Bill did what he did.

I've been saying the same ****ing thing for 4 years now.

Ok that makes sense.

I agree with you that Bill wasn't being petty and thinking I want to lose the Superbowl.

I think the story that came out about Matt makes sense. And I can see Bill backing Matt up, if Matt requested Bill to keep him benched

 

[gobesmug]

I read it.

I don't agree with it.

It is 1000 times harder to find a franchise-altering, HoF coach/GM than a franchise QB or a QB that can win a SB.

So Jim Harbaugh is harder to find than Tom Brady?

I can't ever agree with that. That's just ludicrous.

 

[Hyped]

Okay.

Look. Belichick imo is better than most if not all those coaches. I think its my right as a fan to question the team. I've been pretty rational on these boards and don't have an agenda. I am just trying to say that if this season goes poorly for our team and next season does too, is it time to accept that Belichick's culture could be dead. I think next season is critical.

I think THIS season is STILL CRITICIAL.

It's only week 4!!! If these problems persist into late October...my tune will also change. If I have learned anything the last 20 years...BB is consistent and even kneeled in his approach. There is no secret to what he does...it is just "do your job" day in and day out...get better every day.

And I'd argue that the team culture is better than it has been in years mostly due to the social justice issues we faced during the 2020 season. The locker room loves BB, IMO.