Wickersham book discussion

[holyredeemer]

Replacing Bill is a lot easier than replacing Brady.

Not that replacing Bill would be easy but in comparison to the GOAT of GOATs at the most important position in all of football, QB.

Bill caused Brady to leave. If Bill leaves after multiple losing seasons those won't be that difficult to follow.

No way. I’m not going to argue with anyone that it’s easier to replace Brady. Brady is the GOAT. However, Bill built what this franchise is from top to bottom. The entire culture. Did he have support from guys like Brady, Tedy etc? Of course, but Bill set the standards and expectations. Bill is the GM, the HC, the everything this team identifies with. The next coach would have to walk those halls and see the photos, the trophy’s, the remembrance of greatness everywhere he went. There would be no way to shut down the noise, and the pressure from the fan base and the ****ty hometown media wouldn’t afford you enough of a chance to build a program. You’d have to come in, and hope you were winning by year 2! Good luck. Then it would be the next guy, then the next guy. I really don’t want to go down that coaching/GM carousel anytime soon.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Before Bill, Pete Carroll with the same QB and close to same roster never had record below 8-8.

He went 10-6 and won a playoff game with Bledsoe.

9-7 and made the playoffs.

Then he went 8-8 and was canned.

Bill with the same team went 5-11.

Explain that if Bill was some magician that makes any roster a Superbowl contender?

To be clear, I respect Bill and think he is one of the GOATs. He was the perfect HC for Brady and the Pats.

I don't get your point. Were you happy with the Carroll/Grier/Wasynczuk management team?

Did Bill not move the franchise in a direction you felt was necessary?

I just think he isn't above reproach and criticism.

Of course Bill should be called out for bad FA signings, bashed for ****ty drafts and picked on for bad game plans or in-game decisions. Go for it.

 

[PatsWSB47]

I read it.

I don't agree with it.

It is 1000 times harder to find a franchise-altering, HoF coach/GM than a franchise QB or a QB that can win a SB.

How about a HoF quarterback? Compare apples to apples. A HoF coach vs a coach that can win a Superbowl. Big difference

 

[Hyped]

Yeah Butler said that Bill's decision didn't work out against the Eagles.

Because it didn't.

Bill Made a mistake benching Butler the entire game.

If Bill was right, the defense would have made more than 1 stop the entire game.

Or if Johnson Bademosi made ONE.MORE.TACKLE. or Brandin Cooks didn't try to leap frog over someone for a TD or Brady doesn't drop a pass or the entire defense just didn't have an out-of-character-bad-tackling day.... I could go on and on...

Football is a game decided by inches and the bounces of an oblong ball....

Sure, I'd have loved to see Butler out there on defense making 1-2 stops...but it was BB's call. We will have to live with that.

 

[RobertWeathers]

So Jim Harbaugh is harder to find than Tom Brady?

I can't ever agree with that. That's just ludicrous.

Did Jim Harbaugh really alter the early 2010s Niners?

How many Super Bowls did they win?

He was a cocaine high.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

Chatham got absolutely owned by Breer there.

Well i dont know... Its not like the pats had the number 1 draft pick like the colts did.. brady was an iron man his last Patriots season

 

[gobesmug]

No way. I’m not going to argue with anyone that it’s easier to replace Brady. Brady is the GOAT. However, Bill built what this franchise is from top to bottom. The entire culture. Did he have support from guys like Brady, Tedy etc? Of course, but Bill set the standards and expectations. Bill is the GM, the HC, the everything this team identifies with. The next coach would have to walk those halls and see the photos, the trophy’s, the remembrance of greatness everywhere he went. There would be no way to shut down the noise, and the pressure from the fan base and the ****ty hometown media wouldn’t afford you enough of a chance to build a program. You’d have to come in, and hope you were winning by year 2! Good luck. Then it would be the next guy, then the next guy. I really don’t want to go down that coaching/GM carousel anytime soon.

That's far better explained.

If Bill retired after Brady left, I would fully agree with you without issue.

If Bill brings the team back to a playoff contender again before retiring then I fully agree.

But if Bill has a losing record again this year and follows it up with another losing record then it will hurt his imagine on the way out.

The culture he built is currently dead. I agree what he instilled in the 00s was incredible and I would have wanted no other HC during that time.

 

[RobertWeathers]

How about a HoF quarterback? Compare apples to apples. A HoF coach vs a coach that can win a Superbowl. Big difference

Let's call it equal. There are 29 coaches and 35 QBs in the HoF.

 

[gobesmug]

Did Jim Harbaugh really alter the early 2010s Niners?

How many Super Bowls did they win?

He was a cocaine high.

What HOF QB does he have?

When he had a serviceable QB he won a Superbowl.

He took a RB who can throw to the AFC championship game and almost won it

 

[RobertWeathers]

What HOF QB does he have?

When he had a serviceable QB he won a Superbowl.

He took a RB who can throw to the AFC championship game and almost won it

Are you talking about the 49ers or the NEP?

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

Right now Brady looks like he is the more franchise altering of the two. Brady didn't alter the franchise tremendously in 2000 with a 5-11 record, or last year with a 7-9 record, or 2008 when with a 11-5 record but unable to make the playoffs on a very easy schedule. And he's not looking so hot this year either. Also with only one winning record with the Browns and only 1 playoff appearance thus far in 8 years (now 9 if he misses this year) without Brady, there's a legit conversation over whether Bill is that franchise altering or if he's just a very great coach who happened to find the greatest player in the history of the league who has won at every stage of his career.

Not saying that Bill isn't valuable. But right now there does need to be some perspective on what exactly was the piece holding **** together. Because we still made the playoffs in 2019 with Brady despite the same crappy team, and we probably have a playoff shot with Brady in 2020 and certainly have a winning record that year at least. I'm much more concerned about finding the next QB right now. You get an elite tier QB, and your team can endure a lot of blemishes, even if the coaching is one. We've seen Bill and other great coaches not overcome bad QB play.

Brady went to a stacked roster.... A great qb isnt great without a supporting cast. Why did it take over 10 yrs between Superbowl titles?

 

[Pats1971]

No way. I’m not going to argue with anyone that it’s easier to replace Brady. Brady is the GOAT. However, Bill built what this franchise is from top to bottom. The entire culture. Did he have support from guys like Brady, Tedy etc? Of course, but Bill set the standards and expectations. Bill is the GM, the HC, the everything this team identifies with. The next coach would have to walk those halls and see the photos, the trophy’s, the remembrance of greatness everywhere he went. There would be no way to shut down the noise, and the pressure from the fan base and the ****ty hometown media wouldn’t afford you enough of a chance to build a program. You’d have to come in, and hope you were winning by year 2! Good luck. Then it would be the next guy, then the next guy. I really don’t want to go down that coaching/GM carousel anytime soon.

Culture and all that? Yeah it does not mean anything when you dont have good players and you dont win. Coaches know this, Bill knew it which is why Brady was here for 19 years.

 

[RobertWeathers]

The culture he built is currently dead.

What are you basing this assessment on?

The organization and demands on the players are the same as last year, the year before and the same as it was in 2008 and 2002.

If you want to say the culture has not produced results in 1.25 years then that makes sense.

 

[Pats1971]

Brady went to a stacked roster.... A great qb isnt great without a supporting cast. Why did it take over 10 yrs between Superbowl titles?

A stacked roster so good they had not won a playoff game in 18 years. Did you just question why a QB who has 7 superbowls didnt win one every year? lol

 

[gobesmug]

What are you basing this assessment on?

1-2 and getting outcoached twice this season.

Losing season last year

 

[RobertWeathers]

1-2 and getting outcoached twice this season.

Losing season last year

That doesn't mean the culture is dead.

It came damn close in 2009.

 

[Pats1971]

1-2 and getting outcoached twice this season.

Losing season last year

Culture works when you win. If you dont win, Players dont buy in to culture. Players in the league pretty much want one of two things. Money or winning, if they cannot get those things, they are not going to buy what you are selling.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Culture works when you win. If you dont win, Players dont buy in to culture. Players in the league pretty much want one of two things. Money or winning, if they cannot get those things, they are not going to buy what you are selling.

That is damn accurate.

Players forget 2000 was rough. There were A LOT of grumblings from the Carroll/Tuna leftovers that Bill was an ass (still is). What won the players over was Bill's ability to put players to succeed and prove it on film and eventually winning.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

A stacked roster so good they had not won a playoff game in 18 years. Did you just question why a QB who has 7 superbowls didnt win one every year? lol

Hahaha.... You need both pieces... Brady looked awful his last season with the pats with no supporting cast. Show me a one man show qb who won the SB

 

[gobesmug]

What are you basing this assessment on?

The organization and demands on the players are the same as last year, the year before and the same as it was in 2008 and 2002.

If you want to say the culture has not produced results in 1.25 years then that makes sense.

Making excuses for losing instead of just owning it.

Making subway commercials.

Spending the most money in FA and overspending on average talent.

Pink stripes retiring.

Vets wanting to leave.