Who took the bigger risk (for the Patriots)?

[Rob0729]

Should have never fired Bill. He deserved better.

I love Bill, but he needed to go. He clearly was no longer the same guy he was. I can't see the 2005 Belichick replacing Charlie Weis with Matt Patricia.

Now maybe Kraft could have negotiated a better exit for Belichick, but Bill had to go. Bill rarely showed loyalty to players who he felt no longer brought value to the team including Brady. So we, as fans, didn't need to put up with years more of mediocre football until Belichick decided to retire.

Even if he planned to exit at the end of the season he got Shula's record, that could have been two years. Belichick is 14 wins away from the record. That means he could have been the Patriots head coach through 2027 if he kept the team limping along like they were.

 

[lancerman]

I love Bill, but he needed to go. He clearly was no longer the same guy he was. I can't see the 2005 Belichick replacing Charlie Weis with Matt Patricia.

Now maybe Kraft could have negotiated a better exit for Belichick, but Bill had to go. Bill rarely showed loyalty to players who he felt no longer brought value to the team including Brady. So we, as fans, didn't need to put up with years more of mediocre football until Belichick decided to retire.

Even if he planned to exit at the end of the season he got Shula's record, that could have been two years. Belichick is 14 wins away from the record. That means he could have been the Patriots head coach through 2027 if he kept the team limping along like they were.

This. There were plenty of players, ESPECIALLY Brady, who deserved better and Belichick didn't give it to them. Idk why anybody would think he was going to get a better deal when he declined.

Also let's be real, he was given every opportunity since 2019 to run things how he wanted no matter how controversial to right the ship and he couldn't get it done AND no other team wanted him once he was available. It really spoke volumes about how the rest of the league felt about his abilities and what they would need to sacrifice to get him as a coach.

 

[signbabybrady]

This. There were plenty of players, ESPECIALLY Brady, who deserved better and Belichick didn't give it to them. Idk why anybody would think he was going to get a better deal when he declined.

Also let's be real, he was given every opportunity since 2019 to run things how he wanted no matter how controversial to right the ship and he couldn't get it done AND no other team wanted him once he was available. It really spoke volumes about how the rest of the league felt about his abilities and what they would need to sacrifice to get him as a coach.

If by every opportunity you mean he got to try and rebuild with one rookie once then yes he got every opportunity. Personally I would have liked to see him pick another rookie and see if he could do better. Instead we had to try Mayo, we are left hoping Vrabel can do it, and BB never got enough opportunity to do it again.

 

[lancerman]

If by every opportunity you mean he got to try and rebuild with one rookie once then yes he got every opportunity. Personally I would have liked to see him pick another rookie and see if he could do better. Instead we had to try Mayo, we are left hoping Vrabel can do it, and BB never got enough opportunity to do it again.

Belichick could have worked to make sure Brady retired here instead of trying to go year by year and pissing him off enough to want to rush out the door. He created the situation where he was left without a QB. He also got a pass for getting caught with his pants down when Brady left and getting desperate and signing Cam about a month before the season started. He also got to handle the 2021 draft how he wanted and stayed put for Mac, got called a genius. He needed to make that work.

Plus beyond the QB, the team was getting worse every year. It wasn't just a QB issue. No sane owner was going to give him another chance to make the wrong choice on QB and be passive in more drafts while the team was falling apart. He needed to show positive momentum, he showed negative movement.

In the 5 years since the 2018 SB, every single season was worse than the last except for one year in 2021 when they got to blow their load in cap. And even then they couldn't sustain it and got pantsed. Aside from that, we were a sinking ship.

 

[Steve102]

If by every opportunity you mean he got to try and rebuild with one rookie once then yes he got every opportunity. Personally I would have liked to see him pick another rookie and see if he could do better. Instead we had to try Mayo, we are left hoping Vrabel can do it, and BB never got enough opportunity to do it again.

Bro. It's time to let it go. I loved Bill the HC here as much as anyone, but even I turned in my IBWT card at the end. Regardless... The team is six years removed from their last home playoff win. It's time to move on. I appreciate your loyalty, but it's over.

 

[signbabybrady]

I love Bill, but he needed to go. He clearly was no longer the same guy he was. I can't see the 2005 Belichick replacing Charlie Weis with Matt Patricia.

Now maybe Kraft could have negotiated a better exit for Belichick, but Bill had to go. Bill rarely showed loyalty to players who he felt no longer brought value to the team including Brady. So we, as fans, didn't need to put up with years more of mediocre football until Belichick decided to retire.

Even if he planned to exit at the end of the season he got Shula's record, that could have been two years. Belichick is 14 wins away from the record. That means he could have been the Patriots head coach through 2027 if he kept the team limping along like they were.

Shula's record has nothing to do with it. We always knew finding the next coach was going to be hard and after Mayo it should be apparent to everyone that we pulled the trigger to soon on someone who's done it better than anyone else ever. We can never go back and see what Bill would have done with a second QB post Brady but we very well could be in a cycle of trying the next guy over and over. Hopefully it's Vrabel but until we actually replace BB I'm always going to wonder why we didn't give him another chance and we already have one season that should have been Bill's we never get to see what if and all because of Kraft was scared Mayo would succeed somewhere else.

 

[signbabybrady]

Bro. It's time to let it go. I loved Bill the HC here as much as anyone, but even I turned in my IBWT card at the end. Regardless... The team is six years removed from their last home playoff win. It's time to move on. I appreciate your loyalty, but it's over.

I still have not seen anything that makes me think Bill wouldn't have done better but if you're happy wasting years on the Mayo's of the world instead of having given Bill a few more years just says how much that card really meant to you.

 

[lancerman]

Shula's record has nothing to do with it. We always knew finding the next coach was going to be hard and after Mayo it should be apparent to everyone that we pulled the trigger to soon on someone who's done it better than anyone else ever. We can never go back and see what Bill would have done with a second QB post Brady but we very well could be in a cycle of trying the next guy over and over. Hopefully it's Vrabel but until we actually replace BB I'm always going to wonder why we didn't give him another chance and we already have one season that should have been Bill's we never get to see what if and all because of Kraft was scared Mayo would succeed somewhere else.

Mayo was a mistake. He also had the exact same record as Belichick, which shows how bad things got with him. That's already an indictment and evidence for why BB shouldn't have stayed. When you have a ****show like Mayo and you have to move beyond record and go into less tangible aspects like press conferences and players being undisciplined, you're already on icy ground.

Also again, the rest of the league passed on him when they all had the opportunity to get him. That tells you what the league thought of him. We got rid of someone who at the time had no real demand.

 

[signbabybrady]

Belichick could have worked to make sure Brady retired here instead of trying to go year by year and pissing him off enough to want to rush out the door. He created the situation where he was left without a QB. He also got a pass for getting caught with his pants down when Brady left and getting desperate and signing Cam about a month before the season started. He also got to handle the 2021 draft how he wanted and stayed put for Mac, got called a genius. He needed to make that work.

Plus beyond the QB, the team was getting worse every year. It wasn't just a QB issue. No sane owner was going to give him another chance to make the wrong choice on QB and be passive in more drafts while the team was falling apart. He needed to show positive momentum, he showed negative movement.

In the 5 years since the 2018 SB, every single season was worse than the last except for one year in 2021 when they got to blow their load in cap. And even then they couldn't sustain it and got pantsed. Aside from that, we were a sinking ship.

Brady wanted to leave Bill couldn't stop him because Kraft gave away the franchise tag trying to be the good guy.

In 5 years since the SB he made the playoffs twice. But because no one has any patience we may always wonder what could have been.

Hopefully Vrabel can change things. But then you all will probably turn on him at some point too.

 

[lancerman]

Brady wanted to leave Bill couldn't stop him because Kraft gave away the franchise tag trying to be the good guy.

In 5 years since the SB he made the playoffs twice. But because no one has any patience we may always wonder what could have been.

Hopefully Vrabel can change things. But then you all will probably turn on him at some point too.

You can't just say "Brady wanted to leave" in a vacuum. It didn't happen in a vacuum. Brady was in the middle of an amazing run and the coach got the brilliant idea to pinch pennies and go year to year with the greatest player ever during one of his best runs ever because he wanted the freedom to jettison the minute he felt like it. That is what stalled negotiations and Kraft gave away the franchise tag to get Brady to sign on.

At the end of the day, Brady isn't here because the coach/gm didn't want to give him a longterm deal and let him know that he wanted to be able to toss him away like trash at his leisure. The impetus of Brady's exit started with Belichick and Brady has said as much.

Point blank, if Belichick gave him a longterm deal, we aren't having this conversation. Belichick had control then, didn't want to lock Brady up, then pretty much ignored him during the 2020 off season on top of that and all but guaranteed he would leave.

So yes, him getting caught with his pants down is on him and he has to own that result. And Belichick was the only coach in the league who would have been allowed to pull a stunt like that with Brady. Almost every other owner would have stepped in when a GOAT MVP and the GM were fighting on contract length and made sure the QB was taken care of.

 

[Ring 6]

I think Kraft's hands off approach all those years deserves credit. That plus Bellichick was a winning combination.

I have a hard time saying credit belongs to the guy who wasn’t involved in how things were done.

 

[Boomer B]

Bill wouldn’t give Brady the same 2 year deal Brees got. He wanted to go year to year. A completely ****ty way to handle the best player in team and league history.

 

[lancerman]

Bill wouldn’t give Brady the same 2 year deal Brees got. He wanted to go year to year. A completely ****ty way to handle the best player in team and league history.

Yup. People act like Kraft randomly just skipped in the door and took the franchise tag off the table for no reason.

 

[Steve102]

I still have not seen anything that makes me think Bill wouldn't have done better but if you're happy wasting years on the Mayo's of the world instead of having given Bill a few more years just says how much that card really meant to you.

Let's list the decisions of the rebuild that contributed to his getting canned:

1. Patricia/Judge. Trusting that his yes men could develop a first round pick into something beyond a basket case was a mistake.
2. Brady. Bill believed Brady was done, told RKK as such, and then Brady went off and did what he did.
3. ****ty drafts. I think he changed in 2013, post AH, but you can look at his lack of success in the draft as the #1 reason the team couldn't reload quickly.

Those are enough, combined with a 29-38 and an inability to evolve, be it from age, ego, stubbornness or ay combination therein. 70 year old coaches don't get a long leash. Bill didn't surround himself with a network of great coaches to assist him, he kept a small group of confidants designed to carry the message instead of challenge him to be a better coach.

I truthfully believe it was time.

 

[Rob0729]

Shula's record has nothing to do with it. We always knew finding the next coach was going to be hard and after Mayo it should be apparent to everyone that we pulled the trigger to soon on someone who's done it better than anyone else ever. We can never go back and see what Bill would have done with a second QB post Brady but we very well could be in a cycle of trying the next guy over and over. Hopefully it's Vrabel but until we actually replace BB I'm always going to wonder why we didn't give him another chance and we already have one season that should have been Bill's we never get to see what if and all because of Kraft was scared Mayo would succeed somewhere else.

Kraft made a succession to Mayo because he wanted to continue the Belichick model since it was so successful for many years. Unfortunately, Belichick flamed out to quickly and forced Mayo to be the head coach far sooner than he was ready. Who knows if he would ever be ready, but Kraft had a succession plan and Belichick sped it up.

And replacing the best head coach of all time was always going to be a daunting task just like replacing the greatest QB of all time. Changing head coaches is almost always a crap shoot. World class coordinators turn out to be crappy head coaches frequently. Waiting another year or two to move on from Belichick wasn't going to change that. All it would do is delay the rebuild process.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

It’s hard to give Kraft a big share in the credit when his sole contribution to the success was hiring Belichick and handing him the operation.

Even if true, that is an enormous contribution.

Given Bill's unpopular, really toxic reputation going in, and then the list of public relations and team chemistry decisions he made that launched the criticism even higher each time than it was previously.

So many owners stand pat. They're afraid to make moves. Robert is a bit of an emotional loose cannon, but it appears today, especially with the organization's silly trumpeting of the ownership, his actual role in the dynasty is underrated.

 

[sb1]

Let's list the decisions of the rebuild that contributed to his getting canned:

1. Patricia/Judge. Trusting that his yes men could develop a first round pick into something beyond a basket case was a mistake.

He lost me for good right here. I would have fired him after that season.

2. Brady. Bill believed Brady was done, told RKK as such, and then Brady went off and did what he did.

I didn't want to believe it was a franchise altering blunder and pretended that it wasn't until I couldn't anymore.

3. ****ty drafts. I think he changed in 2013, post AH, but you can look at his lack of success in the draft as the #1 reason the team couldn't reload quickly.

Those are enough, combined with a 29-38 and an inability to evolve, be it from age, ego, stubbornness or ay combination therein. 70 year old coaches don't get a long leash. Bill didn't surround himself with a network of great coaches to assist him, he kept a small group of confidants designed to carry the message instead of challenge him to be a better coach.

I truthfully believe it was time.

Yep.

 

[Rob0729]

Let's list the decisions of the rebuild that contributed to his getting canned:

1. Patricia/Judge. Trusting that his yes men could develop a first round pick into something beyond a basket case was a mistake.
2. Brady. Bill believed Brady was done, told RKK as such, and then Brady went off and did what he did.
3. ****ty drafts. I think he changed in 2013, post AH, but you can look at his lack of success in the draft as the #1 reason the team couldn't reload quickly.

Those are enough, combined with a 29-38 and an inability to evolve, be it from age, ego, stubbornness or ay combination therein. 70 year old coaches don't get a long leash. Bill didn't surround himself with a network of great coaches to assist him, he kept a small group of confidants designed to carry the message instead of challenge him to be a better coach.

I truthfully believe it was time.

How he handled the Mac Jones and Bailey Zappe is one of his worst mistakes. Forget if either guy were any good. He manufactured a QB controversy in 2022. He should have backed Mac coming back from injury. Whether or not he was confident with him or not. He need to show confidence in the guy in public he is starting.

And in 2023, he kept starting and pulling Mac in games seemingly out of spite. You can get away with pulling a QB once in a season and then starting him the next game. When you do it in four or five games, it is destroys confidence in your QBs and divides the locker room between QBs.

 

[signbabybrady]

You can't just say "Brady wanted to leave" in a vacuum. It didn't happen in a vacuum. Brady was in the middle of an amazing run and the coach got the brilliant idea to pinch pennies and go year to year with the greatest player ever during one of his best runs ever because he wanted the freedom to jettison the minute he felt like it. That is what stalled negotiations and Kraft gave away the franchise tag to get Brady to sign on.

At the end of the day, Brady isn't here because the coach/gm didn't want to give him a longterm deal and let him know that he wanted to be able to toss him away like trash at his leisure. The impetus of Brady's exit started with Belichick and Brady has said as much.

Point blank, if Belichick gave him a longterm deal, we aren't having this conversation. Belichick had control then, didn't want to lock Brady up, then pretty much ignored him during the 2020 off season on top of that and all but guaranteed he would leave.

So yes, him getting caught with his pants down is on him and he has to own that result. And Belichick was the only coach in the league who would have been allowed to pull a stunt like that with Brady. Almost every other owner would have stepped in when a GOAT MVP and the GM were fighting on contract length and made sure the QB was taken care of.

You're working in your own vacuum. It wasn't a matter of want. Bill had Brady under control until he was 42 and should have had the ability to use the franchise tag for several years. Brady didn't like this. Kraft wanted to be the nice guy and caved to Brady undercutting BBs leverage and Bill never got another chance.

Mentioning pennies is dumb Bill would have used every dollar Kraft let him.

 

[sb1]

How he handled the Mac Jones and Bailey Zappe is one of his worst mistakes. Forget if either guy were any good. He manufactured a QB controversy in 2022. He should have backed Mac coming back from injury. Whether or not he was confident with him or not. He need to show confidence in the guy in public he is starting.

And in 2023, he kept starting and pulling Mac in games seemingly out of spite. You can get away with pulling a QB once in a season and then starting him the next game. When you do it in four or five games, it is destroys confidence in your QBs and divides the locker room between QBs.

That was ridiculous. There didn't have to be a QB controversy but Bill went out of his way to make it one after the Bears MNF game.