If you were Kraft and this season doesn’t improve, do you move on from Bill after this season?

[VJCPatriot]

Regarding rushing, no kidding they're doing poorly. Mac is 27th in Y/C. You think opposing teams are running out 5-6 secondary worried about some deep bomb? No way. They're stacking 8 in the box because they know even if Mac does complete a pass, it's probably going to be for 5-6 yards. It's very hard to rush when you don't have a passing game.

Do we have the best receiving group in the league? No. But we also don't have an accurate way to assess them with one of the worst QB in the league to go along with them.

Look at Houston. PFF had them ranked the worst receiving group in the NFL heading into the league. Yet Stroud has been a top 10 QB. Meanwhile, the Titans get a guy like DHOP yet because they still have a ****ty QB, he is having the worst Y/G of his career since his rookie season.

Mac has a career ceiling of Ryan Tannehill at best no matter how badly fans want to will him to be better. He's not.

I felt optimistic about Mac Jones his rookie year. He started off strong but tailed off at the end of the year. I felt maybe he had hit some kind of rookie wall. Certainly he didn't look good against Buffalo, our main rival. But he did have a pretty promising start all things considered.

Mac Jones sophomore season however was a joke. He showed a lot of regression but it was hard to judge him too harshly because BB set him up to fail by hiring a defensive coach as the OC and Joe Judge as the QB coach. Joe Judge famously "led" the Giants to back to back 31st offense rankings before getting canned and nearly ruined the career of Daniel Jones. Patricia meanwhile clearly had no clue how to run or call an NFL offense and dumbed things down to the point the center reportedly wasn't allowed to call out protections and many of the veteran players including Kendrick Bourne were very unhappy about the system. So based on those factors I had to withhold complete judgment but I had my concerns and in fact wanted to see more of what Zappe could do based on his limited success in limited appearances.

Now in 2023, Mac Jones 3rd season we see him paired finally with a proven OC BOB and Mac Jones has continued his regression which is very concerning. In terms of passing the ball, we keep seeing Mac Jones throw out late balls across the field that get picked off because he doesn't have the zip required to get to the WR without the defense getting their hands on it. His decisions are late or bad and his deep ball is just awful this season.

If we track Mac Jones yards per attempt across the seasons we see totals of 7.3, 6.8, and now 6.2 this season. I can accept that Mac Jones is a "dink and dunker" with not a lot of arm strength. But how did his arm somehow REGRESS even more after 3 years of pro level football weight room training?

Mac Jones low point of the season came against the Cowboys this past week where he played maybe the worst game of his career. I get that the Cowboys have the #2 pass defense in the NFL currently but he was just an embarrassment to the uniform.

I mean just look at his pick six against the Cowboys. That tells you everything you need to know about Jones.



He was so bad that BB had to finally give him the hook. Any more of this beating and his confidence would probably have shattered permanently. I don't know how he recovers from this and I honestly feel like the Patriots need to go into the offseason making a new QB1 their #1 priority in the draft or a trade if someone becomes available. Mac Jones is NOT the answer as our franchise QB. It's time to look for other options.

 

[h0c2000]

Nope. You're right about that. Both Levy and Shula had later college coaching jobs, but they didn't have NFL jobs. And you may be right that no one would ever offer Bill a HC job again. But I definitely could see an owner taking the risk.

Intrigued, which colleges did Levy and Shula coach at after their NFL HC career?

 

[Rob0729]

Personally, I think it'd really f'ing suck to watch BB get the wins record with another team. He'd probably do a Brady/Chuckie where he'd be one of the final pieces in a contending team while the Pats get back to late 80s early 90s form. I doubt he's gonna have trouble finding another job, even though he'd be getting into Lovie Smith - 3rd HC job territory.

The problem is the longer he has to hang around with mediocre seasons to get the record, the more it cheapens the record. If five of the last six years until he gets the record he has losing records, it starts to become a record for longevity and not about great coaching.

 

[archstanton543]

I felt optimistic about Mac Jones his rookie year. He started off strong but tailed off at the end of the year. I felt maybe he had hit some kind of rookie wall. Certainly he didn't look good against Buffalo, our main rival. But he did have a pretty promising start all things considered.

Mac Jones sophomore season however was a joke. He showed a lot of regression but it was hard to judge him too harshly because BB set him up to fail by hiring a defensive coach as the OC and Joe Judge as the QB coach. Joe Judge famously "led" the Giants to back to back 31st offense rankings before getting canned and nearly ruined the career of Daniel Jones. Patricia meanwhile clearly had no clue how to run or call an NFL offense and dumbed things down to the point the center reportedly wasn't allowed to call out protections and many of the veteran players including Kendrick Bourne were very unhappy about the system. So based on those factors I had to withhold complete judgment but I had my concerns and in fact wanted to see more of what Zappe could do based on his limited success in limited appearances.

Now in 2023, Mac Jones 3rd season we see him paired finally with a proven OC BOB and Mac Jones has continued his regression which is very concerning. In terms of passing the ball, we keep seeing Mac Jones throw out late balls across the field that get picked off because he doesn't have the zip required to get to the WR without the defense getting their hands on it. His decisions are late or bad and his deep ball is just awful this season.

If we track Mac Jones yards per attempt across the seasons we see totals of 7.3, 6.8, and now 6.2 this season. I can accept that Mac Jones is a "dink and dunker" with not a lot of arm strength. But how did his arm somehow REGRESS even more after 3 years of pro level football weight room training?

Mac Jones low point of the season came against the Cowboys this past week where he played maybe the worst game of his career. I get that the Cowboys have the #2 pass defense in the NFL currently but he was just an embarrassment to the uniform.

I mean just look at his pick six against the Cowboys. That tells you everything you need to know about Jones.



He was so bad that BB had to finally give him the hook. Any more of this beating and his confidence would probably have shattered permanently. I don't know how he recovers from this and I honestly feel like the Patriots need to go into the offseason making a new QB1 their #1 priority in the draft or a trade if someone becomes available. Mac Jones is NOT the answer as our franchise QB. It's time to look for other options.

Mac also has one of the worst O-lines in the league. Do you think that has anything to do with his "regression" this year?

What do you think of his WR's and TE's?

 

[PatsFan2]

Mac also has one of the worst O-lines in the league. Do you think that has anything to do with his "regression" this year?

What do you think of his WR's and TE's?

Absolutely not!

 

[Jim Beankie]

The problem is the longer he has to hang around with mediocre seasons to get the record, the more it cheapens the record. If five of the last six years until he gets the record he has losing records, it starts to become a record for longevity and not about great coaching.

Noted, but the last time Shula won a ring was 22 years before he retired. The record's cheap to begin with. 20 years from now, people will remember 6 SBs, not the 2 years he played with the Wizards.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Mac also has one of the worst O-lines in the league. Do you think that has anything to do with his "regression" this year?

What do you think of his WR's and TE's?

This is Mac Jones 3rd season now. He's no wide eyed rookie. And his arm hasn't gotten any better after 3 seasons of pro training. In fact it has gotten worse. The excuses have to stop at some point. This is the same type of mindless defending behavior that was associated with N'Keal Harry up until the day BB admitted he was wrong and traded Harry away for a late pick and a bag of peanuts.

Jones just displays no poise in the pocket, his decision-making is bad, he displays 'deer in headlights' syndrome at the slightest hint of pressure and he gives up fumbles and sacks due to lack of awareness in the pocket. His 6.2 YPA just tells us all we need to know about his lack of arm strength and down the field throwing ability.

Can you polish a turd by putting slightly more attractive accessories around the turd? Yes, in a way. But it's still a turd.

Could Mac Jones change my mind by going on an absolute tear over the next 10 games? Of course he could, but I live in the world of reality and I don't think that's likely to happen. It's time to plan for the future and scour the college ranks for a new future QB1, because Mac Jones ain't it.

And as far as the OL, WR, and TEs, who was the guy responsible for picking the groceries? BB doesn't get off scott free either. He shares in the blame, but Jones is what we see, and he's not the guy to replace #12. I'm not asking for the next GOAT but in New England we have higher standards. We expect a guy capable of leading us into the playoffs and contending against the NFL's very best. Mac Jones doesn't look like he'll ever be "that guy".

 

[mike_usagisan]

Intrigued, which colleges did Levy and Shula coach at after their NFL HC career?

I’m sorry, I got it wrong. Walsh was the only one and he coached for Stanford after the 49ers.

 

[archstanton543]

This is Mac Jones 3rd season now. He's no wide eyed rookie. And his arm hasn't gotten any better after 3 seasons of pro training. In fact it has gotten worse. The excuses have to stop at some point. This is the same type of mindless defending behavior that was associated with N'Keal Harry up until the day BB admitted he was wrong and traded Harry away for a late pick and a bag of peanuts.

Jones just displays no poise in the pocket, his decision-making is bad, he displays 'deer in headlights' syndrome at the slightest hint of pressure and he gives up fumbles and sacks due to lack of awareness in the pocket. His 6.2 YPA just tells us all we need to know about his lack of arm strength and down the field throwing ability.

Can you polish a turd by putting slightly more attractive accessories around the turd? Yes, in a way. But it's still a turd.

Could Mac Jones change my mind by going on an absolute tear over the next 10 games? Of course he could, but I live in the world of reality and I don't think that's likely to happen. It's time to plan for the future and scour the college ranks for a new future QB1, because Mac Jones ain't it.

Ignoring his supporting cast (or lack thereof) is just as bad as mindless defending.

They'll probably not pick up his option and you guys will all get your wish...but not until after 2024.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Ignoring his supporting cast (or lack thereof) is just as bad as mindless defending.

You'll have to take up BB on the supporting cast bit. We don't shop for the groceries. But it's evident the quality of the groceries once we see them play on the field.

This is the typical behavior of the 'defend everyone' poster. They refuse to blame any one specifically but constantly shift blame to something else. If nobody's to blame why are we 1-3 and got stomped 38-3 by the Cowboys? Mistakes were definitely made and Jones ain't that guy. That's just the facts of reality much as you'd like to bury your head in the sand.

 

[condon84]

I mean just look at his pick six against the Cowboys. That tells you everything you need to know about Jones.



He was so bad that BB had to finally give him the hook. Any more of this beating and his confidence would probably have shattered permanently. I don't know how he recovers from this and I honestly feel like the Patriots need to go into the offseason making a new QB1 their #1 priority in the draft or a trade if someone becomes available. Mac Jones is NOT the answer as our franchise QB. It's time to look for other options.

Defenses are sitting on those short zones in middle and forcing Mac to throw to the boundaries or deep zones, where his lack of arm strength is gonna be exposed. And this was inside a dome.

 

[archstanton543]

You'll have to take up BB on the supporting cast bit. We don't shop for the groceries. But it's evident the quality of the groceries once we see them play on the field.

This is the typical behavior of the 'defend everyone' poster. They refuse to blame any one specifically but constantly shift blame to something else. If nobody's to blame why are we 1-3 and got stomped 38-3 by the Cowboys? Mistakes were definitely made and Jones ain't that guy. That's just the facts of reality much as you'd like to bury your head in the sand.

They're not the only team that's going to get stomped by the Boy this year. They're a pretty darn good team.

Is Mac part of the problem? Sure. Are there bigger problems (e.g. - No O-line, no running game, no WR that can get separation)? Yes.

That said, it's hard to truly evaluate Mac since the rest of the offensive operation is substandard.

 

[Rob0729]

Noted, but the last time Shula won a ring was 22 years before he retired. The record's cheap to begin with. 20 years from now, people will remember 6 SBs, not the 2 years he played with the Wizards.

To be perfectly honest, I don't really care about that record. It is against everything he preached. Individual glory isn't important. Team glory is. Over the years, a lot of players on this team sacrificed personal stats for the greater good of the team. I know it is important to him, but to me the only thing I care about is rings.

 

[Joey007]

Do you notice how it really has been a downward trend since 2020?

2020 we go 7-9, but I consider it a great coaching job on Bill's part. That roster was pretty depleted of talent, and we won some games we had no business winning.

2021 was a similar team that was more talented. It largely was a pretty well coached team that could flat out dominate certain teams during the season. But lapses were becoming more frequent later in the season until they boiled over in the playoff game.

2022 was a team equally as talented, but began to have even more lapses. Only had a brief stretch in the middle of the season where they were playing good football.

And now we're here this season, four games in. If the struggles continue this same way the next couple games, it's a sign the bottom has completely dropped out.

It seems like we're finding more and more ways to lose games as each season goes by. That's a typical sign of depleting coaching.

 

[Brewskies]

No, Mac Jones is on Kraft. Belichick and O'Brien knew that Mac Jones was not the QB for the Pats before the season started.

 

[Rob0729]

No, Mac Jones is on Kraft. Belichick and O'Brien knew that Mac Jones was not the QB for the Pats before the season started.

If Belichick and O’Brien knew Jones was not the QB before the season, why did they go to the season with no viable back up to Jones. They cut Zappe right before the season. They have no veteran back up. They have brought in a revolving door of developmental back ups that looks to be an attempt to replace Zappe.

If you know your starting QB sucks. Why would you give him crap to work with and have no viable back up if he fails miserably.

BTW, if O’Brien knew Jones sucked, there is no way he would have come here. He had several teams interested in him. Why go to a place where you know you are going to have build an offense around a QB who cannot play?

 

[Jlaff]

If Belichick and O’Brien knew Jones was not the QB before the season, why did they go to the season with no viable back up to Jones. They cut Zappe right before the season. They have no veteran back up. They have brought in a revolving door of developmental back ups that looks to be an attempt to replace Zappe.

If you know your starting QB sucks. Why would you give him crap to work with and have no viable back up if he fails miserably.

BTW, if O’Brien knew Jones sucked, there is no way he would have come here. He had several teams interested in him. Why go to a place where you know you are going to have build an offense around a QB who cannot play?

O'Brien was probably reading Patsfans this offseason. Became convinced that Mac's failings were all Patricia's doing and his coming here would solve everything.

 

[RIpats88]

Ignoring his supporting cast (or lack thereof) is just as bad as mindless defending.

They'll probably not pick up his option and you guys will all get your wish...but not until after 2024.

Then Mac will be decent on a better team while we watch the same issues and fans will complain.

Because fans think it's a "one guy fix" and not a symptom of the offense being garbage as a whole.

It's easier to think "if we replace Mac we are beating these teams!" Than to think Bill has been negligent and we need new OL, WR, 3rd down RB, change in draft philosophy.

 

[RIpats88]

If Belichick and O’Brien knew Jones was not the QB before the season, why did they go to the season with no viable back up to Jones. They cut Zappe right before the season. They have no veteran back up. They have brought in a revolving door of developmental back ups that looks to be an attempt to replace Zappe.

If you know your starting QB sucks. Why would you give him crap to work with and have no viable back up if he fails miserably.

BTW, if O’Brien knew Jones sucked, there is no way he would have come here. He had several teams interested in him. Why go to a place where you know you are going to have build an offense around a QB who cannot play?

This is just delusion from pats fans. Zappe had a chance to win the starting job and crapped himself.

Mac was clearly the best guy in camp. But you aren't going full tilt in camp. And we already saw signs that the OL was poor. Mac/zappe got destroyed in preseason. We also knew the receivers weren't good enough because we brought In Hopkins. But he wouldn't sign for "value".

It's easier on fans minds to think this is a 1 person fix. It's not like we are running the ball well and the OL is blocking and Mac is just missing reads and making dumb decisions. It's like a flood of issues piling on top of each other.

I'm honestly not sure what fans actually expect from Mac. I expect more than the Dallas game. But he was largely okay the first 3 games.

It's hard to win in the NFL with no run game, an OL that can't block and receivers that are average.

 

[moosekill]

The defense is shot. They lost their top 4 dbacks. They just lost their top d lineman. They continuously get behind because they are playing 4th string dbacks and have gone against probaly 3 of the top 10 teams in the league and 1 with a damn good d they actually beat. Their o-line hasn't played together at all and their best 2 linemen missed all of training camp and one is still battling an injury. Their offense was built to run the ball and shorten the game. They are playing from behind every game and can't run the ball because of the above, against really good teams, so is anyone really surprised they are losing? Of course to be fair, after all that, they have only been out of 1 game all season. While it would be amazing to have Tom Brady, I am not really sure how he would have done with this team. Beyond that, what team can recover from losing their top 4 defensive backs? What coach can plan for that. Yes the o-line had some questions before the season, but so far the questions have all ended up pretty badly. Sometimes there really isn't much a team can do when every break goes against them and so far, that seems to be this season.