If you were Kraft and this season doesn’t improve, do you move on from Bill after this season?

[Tunescribe]

This debate is so lame.

Because there is no QB available, by default Corky is good to go. Could be worse, right? Furthermore, the NE WRs and TEs are open by NFL standards. They just are not wide open like at Alabama and they are not facing future Footlocker managers as DBs.

Any competent NFL QB just needs to be smart enought to recognize the best option and strong enough to complete the throw which Corky struggles to do unless it's a checkdown.

So, the snake oil blame game continues on. Corky is what he is and that's a back up at best who will be out of the NFL in the near future.

Bottom line is that I was right about Corky all along and you all were wrong.

Uh-oh. Watch out, sis is on the warpath again ...

 

[Bruins29]

You didn’t realize they have a 20 year waiting list for season tickets and sell out every game?
You didn’t realize there is a tremendous resale market for patriot tickets?

They are trying to out the best product they can on the field. Every organization goes through down periods, it’s the nature of competitive sports under a salary cap. How entitled of you to be threatening to abandon the team because they aren’t handing you more than the unprecedented success they already have

Are you like this in your personal life? Do you whine, cry and blame every time something doesn’t go your way?

Do you have to make up things in order to feel you have the upper hand in every discussion

I did none of that and never implied I could affect anything

But then again I am not the one here who has a reputation of turning every discussion into a mess

Given your behavior here and reputation I would bet you don’t even have a personal life

 

[Jim Beankie]

Personally, I think it'd really f'ing suck to watch BB get the wins record with another team. He'd probably do a Brady/Chuckie where he'd be one of the final pieces in a contending team while the Pats get back to late 80s early 90s form. I doubt he's gonna have trouble finding another job, even though he'd be getting into Lovie Smith - 3rd HC job territory.

 

[SteveBsFan]

You can't compare Moss having a down year on a mediocre Oakland team after breaking 1000 yards 7 out of the 8 previous seasons to any of the guys you mentioned at all. Also lol at Bourne being no worse than Welker. Juju broke 1k exactly once in his career. Last year was his second best year and he was playing with the best QB in the league in an MVP season and the entire defense was focusing on the TE who was playing out of his mind. That's just not a realistic expectation to throw him on here and have him be the primary passing threat and expect the same.

I don't even know why you are talking about Stallworth or Lafell. Stallworth had one 700 yard season with us when he was playing with Moss and Welker. He had better seasons in NO and PHI. He did pretty much what you would expect for his level of production here. Lafell had an up year when he was on the same offense as healthy Gronk and Edelman all year and it was about on par with what he did with Andy Dalton a couple years later. Having 200 more yards than his average in the best offense he was ever in, isn't some crazy abberation.

This is one of the worst receiving corps in the league. It's not even really close. It was almost consistently ranked one of the bottom corps in the league. And frankly, it's largely been middle of the pack in passing this years and outpacing most projections going into the season if you compare it to the rest of the league. 12th in passing yards. Tied for 12th in passing TD's. 20 in passer rating.

You know where the team is really underperforming? Rushing. Bottom 10 in rushing yards. Bottom 5 in yards per carry. Bottom 5 in rushing TD's. 21st in rushing 1st downs.

A team that was supposed to be a defense heavy ground and pound team has one of the most dissapointing running games in the league and it's not particularly close.

Everyone thought Moss was done. That's why he was traded for pennies. You can frame it 7 of 8 seasons of 1k, or you can frame it going from 80+ YPG to 40-60 his final 3 years before coming to NE.

Re: Bourne / Welker. What part of this is confusing to people? Do people just drop all logic when discussing former players? Welker was coming off a 400 and 600 yard season when he joined NE. The original post I was referencing said:

In 2006 he left the cupboard bare. So went out and got moss/welker/stallworth.

Bourne had virtually the same stats in SF as Welker in Miami. Welker was not some top-tier talent when he came here. Neither was Stallworth (who, as you pointed out, actually regressed a little in NE.. likely due to competing with Moss and Welker for receptions).

My point was - and this is key - Belichick didn't go load up on tier 1 talent for 2007. He got guys who worked hard and can catch the ball and his QB did the rest. Brady gave Moss a second life. Brady turned Welker into an elite receiver. He also did the same for the college QB turned WR.

The fact that we have noodle arm Jones throwing passes instead of Brady means we never get to see the full potential of Bourne, Parker, Henry, etc. People LOVE to blame the receivers, blame the line, blame the coaches, blame the weather, but the fact is that Mac sucks and the only reason his stats look somewhat okay is that the coaches have treated him with kid gloves because every time they take off the gloves, he has super ****ty games proving how bad he actually is.

Regarding rushing, no kidding they're doing poorly. Mac is 27th in Y/C. You think opposing teams are running out 5-6 secondary worried about some deep bomb? No way. They're stacking 8 in the box because they know even if Mac does complete a pass, it's probably going to be for 5-6 yards. It's very hard to rush when you don't have a passing game.

Do we have the best receiving group in the league? No. But we also don't have an accurate way to assess them with one of the worst QB in the league to go along with them.

Look at Houston. PFF had them ranked the worst receiving group in the NFL heading into the league. Yet Stroud has been a top 10 QB. Meanwhile, the Titans get a guy like DHOP yet because they still have a ****ty QB, he is having the worst Y/G of his career since his rookie season.

Mac has a career ceiling of Ryan Tannehill at best no matter how badly fans want to will him to be better. He's not.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Mac has a career ceiling of Ryan Tannehill at best no matter how badly fans want to will him to be better. He's not.

As I posted over on Reddit, in 2021, Jones had a top-10 season all-time among rookie QBs. But since then Belichick has failed—I am sure it's not intentionally, but it is also not blamelessly—to help him improve. Some of it is obviously not his fault (especially injuries), but a lot of it is (especially his views on WR "value").

 

[SteveBsFan]

As I posted over on Reddit, in 2021, Jones had a top-10 season all-time among rookie QBs. But since then Belichick has failed—I am sure it's not intentionally, but it is also not blamelessly—to help him improve. Some of it is obviously not his fault (especially injuries), but a lot of it is (especially his views on WR "value").

Right, but according to PFF, you also had these guys as best rookie seasons in modern times
1. Russell Wilson (very good to great)
2. RG3 (bust)
3. Mayfield (bust? -- so far good start in TB but bust rest of career)
4. Jones
5. Prescott (good to very good)
6. Matt Ryan (solid career. Some up years some down)
7. Herbert (star in making)
8. Bridgewater (meh, mostly bust)
9. Burrow (star)
10. Minshew (bust)
11. Wentz (bust)
12. Tannehill (bust)
13. Newton (weird career. MVP one season average most other)
14. Winston (bust)
15. Flacco (average career)

But let's take a look at the non busts...
1. Wilson - 8/9 pro-bowl, 4x OPoy top 4
2. Prescott - Sophmore slump but then went on to get progressively better until last season
3. Ryan - Sophmore slump then flatlined as a 90ish rating type of QB. 1 outstanding season
4. Herbert - Progressively improving
5. Burrow - Progressively improving
6. Newton - up and down career. Like Ryan, had 1 outstanding season.

What is the point of this? Rookie season doesn't mean a whole lot when it comes to judging a career. And those who did have good careers typically remained consistently good. Jones had a significant dropoff after his rookie season and obviously it's still WAY too early to put a fork in him, there is absolutely no signs of life right now.

I get that Mac doesn't have a Tyreek Hill running routes or Trent Williams protecting his blindside, but both his rookie season and this season, he had a better comp % and rating with less than 2.5 seconds in pocket than more time. He CAN make quick accurate throws at times, but most of the time, he does **** like this:



The slightest bit of pressure and he lobs it behind Zeke.

Meanwhile, let's take a look at last game:



1:00 - Great reaction. Buys time, hits Douglas.
1:30 - Pressured by one guy and just lobs it over Gesicki who was wide open
2:56 - Pressure but shows he can make accurate throw. Not exactly a zip, but accurate.
3:09 - Plenty of time, misses Henry wide open and throws it slightly off mark to Juju
3:30 - His dumb fumble
4:30 - Plenty of time, throws off back foot. Nearly picked.
5:30 - All the time in the world, lobs it across the field nearly incomplete. Terrible decision
5:45 - Plenty of time, great accurate throw.
5:57 - plenty of time, makes terrible decision
6:40 - Ran away from no pressure into pressure and then throws it at defender. Lucky no pick
7:15 - Fantastic throw. Threw where only Henry could get it. No issues here. Even if incomplete it was still great
7:30 - Just a bad throw, but it's hard to tell if anyone was even open from that angle
8:23 - This is where it looks like Mac has thrown in the towel. Absolutely terrible throw.

Now to compare to Zappe who came in 31-3 facing serious pass rush
9:10 - Fast accurate throw
9:17 - Calmly steps up in pocket and throws it JUST a bit off-line but near perfect throw
10:00 - Avoids pressure and throws to ground as nobody was open. Could have been bad throw though if others were open
11:03 - Perfect throw leading Bourne allowing for some YAC
11:10 - Under pressure, good throw.
11:20 - Heavy pressure, throws away

Holy **** this is a long post. I guess that happens when I'm home sick.

Mac made a handful of accurate, good throws but mostly poor decisions and most lobs. This isn't about Zappe but I just brought up his clips to show the difference in poise and accuracy under the same pressure by the same team. I don't know if Zappe is better than Mac, but the contrast between the two was stark. Especially considering Zappe got to deal with the massive pass rush.

Okay, long post over. Sorry about that.

 

[RicoG]

Personally, I think it'd really f'ing suck to watch BB get the wins record with another team. He'd probably do a Brady/Chuckie where he'd be one of the final pieces in a contending team while the Pats get back to late 80s early 90s form. I doubt he's gonna have trouble finding another job, even though he'd be getting into Lovie Smith - 3rd HC job territory.

BB is old at 71 and a control freak. On top of that, he has't accomplished anything in the 4 years post-Brady and other then a DC, he hasn't accomplished anything pre-Brady. No owner is going to give him complete control as GM and HC.

The only question is how long does he stay on? If he does(to try and get the wins record), I'm certain BB will have to give up his GM title. BB the GM has been stinking up the joint for years.

 

[Jim Beankie]

BB is old at 71 and a control freak. On top of that, he has't accomplished anything in the 4 years post-Brady and other then a DC, he hasn't accomplished anything pre-Brady. No owner is going to give him complete control as GM and HC.

The only question is how long does he stay on? If he does(to try and get the wins record), I'm certain BB will have to give up his GM title. BB the GM has been stinking up the joint for years.

Imho, I think he hates Shula so much, he'd give up GM control for another team just to get the record.

 

[Real fan 02]

If it's a losing season I can see Kraft moving on.
mid season doesn't make sense.

Playoffs, to out of the playoffs, to losing record.

Bill can't make any excuses. he picked these players, he picked these coaches, he's doing the coaching.

Hard to argue that point. It's been a regression each season.. we all know 2020 was a throw away season. So far with 3 losses in the AFC playoffs are just a mirage right now.. so I'm in agreement.

 

[RicoG]

This debate is so lame.

Because there is no QB available, by default Corky is good to go. Could be worse, right? Furthermore, the NE WRs and TEs are open by NFL standards. They just are not wide open like at Alabama and they are not facing future Footlocker managers as DBs.

Any competent NFL QB just needs to be smart enought to recognize the best option and strong enough to complete the throw which Corky struggles to do unless it's a checkdown.

So, the snake oil blame game continues on. Corky is what he is and that's a back up at best who will be out of the NFL in the near future.

Bottom line is that I was right about Corky all along and you all were wrong.

I thought Mac might be an OK QB outside the top 10 at the level of Carr and Goff. That was his ceiling. But yeah, even that seems to be too high.

 

[Real fan 02]

Bills record without Brady speaks for itself....it's Lovie Smith

It's telling.. BBs coaching tenure seems to be ending how it began..

 

[mike_usagisan]

BB is old at 71 and a control freak. On top of that, he has't accomplished anything in the 4 years post-Brady and other then a DC, he hasn't accomplished anything pre-Brady. No owner is going to give him complete control as GM and HC.

Look, I know you hate him, and that's fine. But owners are not going to look at Bill's resume and say, "Well, I'll just ignore the 20 years he had Brady as QB and won six Super Bowls."

 

[RicoG]

Hard to argue that point. It's been a regression each season.. we all know 2020 was a throw away season. So far with 3 losses in the AFC playoffs are just a mirage right now.. so I'm in agreement.

You could argue 2019 was a throw away season too. Brady had one foot out the door (after BB refused to sign him long term in 2018), an old hobbled Edelman was WR1, Gronk retired, and the defence crashed back to earth.

Imo, here is BBs big picture blunder.
2018- not signing Brady long term.
2019- the dynasty is coming to an end. Brady is leaving and the other leaders and stars on the team are getting old or a gone. Should have thrown everything on offence, including giving up draft picks, to win a SB ( btw if they had traded their 2020 1st rd draft, Pats wouldn't be in the Mac purgatory).

2020- like you said, it was a throw away season anyway. They should have just gone on full blown tank mode instead of trying to be middling competitive. It was obvious they didn't have the horses to compete for a SB.

2021- Should still be in tank mode. Rebuild the team with high draft picks.

2022- maybe start to be competitive again.

2023- pieces should be in place make a run like it's 2000 again. Now is the time to get the higher ceiling QB through the draft. But BB should have got Mayfield too to fight for the job. Just like Brady had to fight for the job against Bledsoe and others.

 

[RicoG]

Look, I know you hate him, and that's fine. But owners are not going to look at Bill's resume and say, "Well, I'll just ignore the 20 years he had Brady as QB and won six Super Bowls."

That's pretty funny.

Look, no one will ever get anywhere close to the nearly 50% SB appearances over such a long period of time. They were certainly a dynamic duo.

So I give all the props to BB the coach for those 20 years (except for the Malcolm Butler debacle in the SB and the overall defensive game plan for that game).

BB the GM was also lights out from 2000 to 2015. But he's been bad since then,.. that's 8 years now. He was the reason Brady didn't retire a Patriot. He didn't make a serious final run for the SB before their aging stars were gone and the window closed on the dynasty. He was in denial that the dynasty was over and decided to reload instead of rebuild. Now the Pats are no further ahead then they were in 2020. In fact, they're behind.

 

[mike_usagisan]

That's pretty funny.

Look, no one will ever get anywhere close to the nearly 50% SB appearances over such a long period of time. They were certainly a dynamic duo.

So I give all the props to BB the coach for those 20 years (except for the Malcolm Butler debacle in the SB and the overall defensive game plan for that game).

BB the GM was also lights out from 2000 to 2015. But he's been bad since then,.. that's 8 years now. He was the reason Brady didn't retire a Patriot. He didn't make a serious final run for the SB before their aging stars were gone and the window closed on the dynasty. He was in denial that the dynasty was over and decided to reload instead of rebuild. Now the Pats are no further ahead then they were in 2020. In fact, they're behind.

There's a lot in there I agree with, I just think that owners will look at how Andy Reid is doing in his stint that came immediately after getting fired from the Eagles and would be willing to take the risk. As owners, they want to sell luxury boxes and season tickets and Bill is a name that would bring a fanbase in for a while.

 

[h0c2000]

There's a lot in there I agree with, I just think that owners will look at how Andy Reid is doing in his stint that came immediately after getting fired from the Eagles and would be willing to take the risk. As owners, they want to sell luxury boxes and season tickets and Bill is a name that would bring a fanbase in for a while.

Owners took a risk with a 55 year old Andy Reid. Which owners took a risk with Tom Landry, Marv Levy or Don Shula?

 

[mike_usagisan]

Owners took a risk with a 55 year old Andy Reid. Which owners took a risk with Tom Landry, Marv Levy or Don Shula?

At the age of 80, after he had retired for several years, the Bills hired Levy as their GM.

 

[h0c2000]

At the age of 80, after he had retired for several years, the Bills hired Levy as their GM.

So none hired someone as a coach.

 

[mike_usagisan]

So none hired someone as a coach.

Nope. You're right about that. Both Levy and Shula had later college coaching jobs, but they didn't have NFL jobs. And you may be right that no one would ever offer Bill a HC job again. But I definitely could see an owner taking the risk.

 

[Real fan 02]

You could argue 2019 was a throw away season too. Brady had one foot out the door (after BB refused to sign him long term in 2018), an old hobbled Edelman was WR1, Gronk retired, and the defence crashed back to earth.

Imo, here is BBs big picture blunder.
2018- not signing Brady long term.
2019- the dynasty is coming to an end. Brady is leaving and the other leaders and stars on the team are getting old or a gone. Should have thrown everything on offence, including giving up draft picks, to win a SB ( btw if they had traded their 2020 1st rd draft, Pats wouldn't be in the Mac purgatory).

2020- like you said, it was a throw away season anyway. They should have just gone on full blown tank mode instead of trying to be middling competitive. It was obvious they didn't have the horses to compete for a SB.

2021- Should still be in tank mode. Rebuild the team with high draft picks.

2022- maybe start to be competitive again.

2023- pieces should be in place make a run like it's 2000 again. Now is the time to get the higher ceiling QB through the draft. But BB should have got Mayfield too to fight for the job. Just like Brady had to fight for the job against Bledsoe and others.

Great ,Great post. It's just becoming to me more apparent that without Brady his legacy wether it's unfair or not. It's under scrutiny. Look me as a fan I want the team to win, I want this season to mean something. I don't blame him for the injuries but I blame for the roster construction. Now @ mike_usagisan knows me as a poster. I'm very optimistic! It's just hard to find the optimism right now.