Don't Ever Tell Me Belichick is More Valuable Than Brady Ever Again

[Geezer Butler]

17 years of dominance in an era of football designed for parity. It's a SYMBIOTIC relationship between coach and QB that makes that happen. It's literally impossible to point to one or the other as more important.

 

[LivinLovin&Breathin_Brady]

Did they play well against the Eagles ? No. It was a horrible matchup for the front 7 we, Philly took advantage of it and the few plays that could have been made were screwed up individually. Brady almost carried us over that and came up one sack short. But now saying this is what happened in every game is simply recency bias.

Recency bias? The defense has been trash for years. They only show up against crap QBs, 6 good games against trash in our own division every year to pad what would otherwise be embarrassing stats. Then they play like trash for the other ten games, where we all expect the opposing team to screw up and hand us the game in the end, and they usually do.

We are fortunate that all the QBs suck, except 5 at this point, and we got one of 'em. It explains why the ratings continue to plummet, and why defenses, except ours, appear to be stronger this season.

The reactions are understandable. Most people aren’t very bright. These less intelligent people tend to react with emotion rather than with logic. Hell, normally intelligent people do it as well. I’m certainly not exempt and I’m probably the smartest guy who knows everything on this entire board. That said, when you begin to understand that and add in the fact that this game was lost due primarily to Belichick’s coaching and stubbornness, you can see why these threads are popping up. I’m certainly not a happy camper with him right now, but people need to step the hell back and realize the man is also at least partially responsible for 5 Lombardis as well. He made a mistake. He essentially admitted this game was on him post-game. That doesn’t mean he should be fired like the great, unwashed masses are saying.

It's his job to put the blame on himself, he's not the only coach to do it.

You're cool, but it's real cute that you would insinuate that others are responding emotionally, when you're doing the same, responding to the audacity that anyone would have in questioning whether Belichick should be fired or not without applying any logic but "5" to your argument.

I didn't say he should be fired. I said if he retired, or got fired, I would not react as if the team would be any better or worse, because it can't be. He's done an average job since 2009. Lets not act like the AFC hasn't been weak for years now. Lets not act as if owning the QB-less AFC East since the dynasty was born is some great accomplishment, when all the teams have sucked, outside of 2 seasons, since I started watching the game, which was the Pats and Panthers SB.

Lets stop giving Belichick a pass becausw of his ealier success. His defenses have sucked for 10 seasons, and he gets a pass because he won 5 trophies, despite the D embarrassing themselves nearly all season. Cleveland has mediocre players on offense and trash for defense. If Brady wins 2 for them, should we care whether the coach stays or go? I know I wouldn't. This has been my opinion of Belichick way before last Sunday. Just because he won 5, it doesn't mean we ignore the obvious. Just because he won 5 it doesn't mean the person who disagrees with your opinion of Belichick is "less intelligent" or "emotional." It simply means they have observed the team for years and is still looking for this "genius," that they claim is in NE. It simply means that the observer is convinced that this team would've won those last 2 SBs, and possibly Sunday's SB, without Belichick. I ain't that emotional, just bored this morning.

 

[archstanton543]

Yeah, the defense has been so bad for so long that the guy who basically ran it for years got a head coaching job out of it.

 

[luuked]

Recency bias? The defense has been trash for years. They only show up against crap QBs, 6 good games against trash in our own division every year to pad what would otherwise be embarrassing stats. Then they play like trash for the other ten games, where we all expect the opposing team to screw up and hand us the game in the end, and they usually do.

Yeah they were so bad this year against Matt Ryan, Drew Brees, Philip Rivers.. only against the trash teams from our own division..

I hope you disappear to whereever you were throughout the year only to show up and whine like an entitled brat at the end because you didn't get your endorphin kick out of the SB.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

Millennials are funny.

The simple fact is, Brady would have very unlikely ever been given the chance BB afforded him here. The heat BB took for keeping Bledsoe on the bench took guts, and BB kept 4 QBs in 2000, something now GM or coach has ever done in the cap era.

Brady would have failed or never been given a shot with pretty much any another franchise, because at the time, teams were not looking for a Brady skill set in the draft.

NOw, EVERYONE is looking for the next Brady, but BB saw it and gave him a shot. I am not even convinced Brady would have gone in the 7th rd of the draft. He probably would have gone undrafted.

And since the Felger/mazz losers who love to bash BB like jealous morons, Brady might want to get this team off to a better start in Super Bowls. I warned of it possibly catching up to us, and it did on Sunday. That was an old school shootout game, and our GOAT QB came to the party a little hungover. Again.

When you really thinking about it, he hasn't played a good, clean 4 QTRS in a Super Bowl since maybe SB 39. He only plays well for one half.

Bizarre.

But, this is a team sport, and if BB turned to JimmyG next year, I have no doubts he'd have us 11-5 or 12-4 next year, win thedivision and possibly back in the title game.

The league's ratings are down due to arrogant morons as GMs and arrogant moron coaches everywhere.

BB is the greatest GM and Coach who ever lived in any sport, regardless of a flawed gameplan on Sunday.

The people who think Brady walks on water are creepy.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

With Hightower and Gilmore getting premium contracts last offseason, BB the GM had to economize elsewhere. By the end of the season, NE fielded the JAGgiest front 7 in recent history. Castoffs, waiver wire pickups, middle rounders, and UFAs filled many of the starting roles.....and Philly dropped 41 on them.
No #1's drafted in the past 3 years.
Premium talent getting shipped out
The front 7 rebuild will begin in a couple of months. Unfortunately, NE will likely need a #2 CB as well. I don't expect a miracle upgrade in just one offseason.
Brady will again be counted on to outscore the rest of the NFL

I think BB may go CB in the draft and have someone come in with Bademosi on the right side.

Jon Jones projects now as the lead at the Star position.

 

[archstanton543]

And since the Felger/mazz losers who love to bash BB like jealous morons, Brady might want to get this team off to a better start in Super Bowls. I warned of it possibly catching up to us, and it did on Sunday. That was an old school shootout game, and our GOAT QB came to the party a little hungover. Again.

When you really thinking about it, he hasn't played a good, clean 4 QTRS in a Super Bowl since maybe SB 39. He only plays well for one half.

Are you high? This was Brady's best performance in the Super Bowl. He "came to the party a little hungover. Again"? What does that even mean? Did you watch the game? Have you seen Brady's stats from that game?

You know, I thought about blocking you because you reply to EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD. Multiple times...but then I thought I'd be missing out...but you know what? I'm really not.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

This is a real non-starter for me. They had what they had in terms of talent. It was what it was, in terms of the game. I really think there is a first-half-is-for-analysis thing going on, and this time, it didn't work. So we must survive the misfortune of only going to 3 of the last 4 Super Bowls and only winning 2 of the last 4.

I want him always to be the grandmaster leaving behind all other coaches in every game. This time that didn't happen in the last game. I'm with you.

I think the write-ups will probably point out that they beat us at our own game in many ways, including the patience not to go for the home run and get everything at once (offense and defense).

Hats off to that young guy that beat us, if you measure coach vs. coach. Hats off to a talented, tough, smart Philly team that got the better of us. Hats off to another great SB, one we unfortunately lost... but definitely wasn't a game to turn off.

BB made mistakes tonight. Point granted... and rant understood and appreciated. I think you want to pull back and look at how well and consistently what he does works (and that's despite the league* shenanigans, trying to break up the Pats off the field (confiscated draft picks, suspension games, propaganda campaigns, etc.)

So yeah there were mistakes in there. There were "woulda looked brilliant if it worked" mistakes too. BB the GM has done pretty damn well if you ask me.

We just got outcoached and outplayed. It's not good. You don't want it to happen. Blah blah blah about injuries, that's just straight excuse-making. But I'm thinkin I'm still okay w/BB. And of course, I'm very okay with TFB.

If we had a healthy Hightower and McClellin, no doubt we pull off the win on Sunday, IMO.

We missed each's skill sets all year. It is what it is. I am proud of the way these guys battle.

Any other franchise, and its 9-7 or 8-8, something like that. Brady gives us maybe 2 wins in there, so 10-6, maybe 11-5, but 13-3 is really amazing considering the injuries and retirements, etc.

Pats will simply be right back in the title game next year.

For whatever reason, the odd seasons, 2009-2017, we have awful luck with injuries.

Next year is an even year, so we'll probably win it all. lmao

 

[IllegalContact]

Millennials are funny.

The simple fact is, Brady would have very unlikely ever been given the chance BB afforded him here. The heat BB took for keeping Bledsoe on the bench took guts, and BB kept 4 QBs in 2000, something now GM or coach has ever done in the cap era.

Brady would have failed or never been given a shot with pretty much any another franchise, because at the time, teams were not looking for a Brady skill set in the draft.

NOw, EVERYONE is looking for the next Brady, but BB saw it and gave him a shot. I am not even convinced Brady would have gone in the 7th rd of the draft. He probably would have gone undrafted.

And since the Felger/mazz losers who love to bash BB like jealous morons, Brady might want to get this team off to a better start in Super Bowls. I warned of it possibly catching up to us, and it did on Sunday. That was an old school shootout game, and our GOAT QB came to the party a little hungover. Again.

When you really thinking about it, he hasn't played a good, clean 4 QTRS in a Super Bowl since maybe SB 39. He only plays well for one half.

Bizarre.

But, this is a team sport, and if BB turned to JimmyG next year, I have no doubts he'd have us 11-5 or 12-4 next year, win thedivision and possibly back in the title game.

The league's ratings are down due to arrogant morons as GMs and arrogant moron coaches everywhere.

BB is the greatest GM and Coach who ever lived in any sport, regardless of a flawed gameplan on Sunday.

The people who think Brady walks on water are creepy.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

Are you high? This was Brady's best performance in the Super Bowl. He "came to the party a little hungover. Again"? What does that even mean? Did you watch the game? Have you seen Brady's stats from that game?

You know, I thought about blocking you because you reply to EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD. Multiple times...but then I thought I'd be missing out...but you know what? I'm really not.

Umm, his 2nd half was off the charts. First half? Not so much. 3 dropped INTs, Collinsneck pointing out awful throws, etc, and yet again more red zone struggles.

DO YOU watch the game?

Yes, it's a fact Brady has had either inconsistent up and down qtrs in Super Bowls. Why does it always have to be some miracle by the D or why do we see him start so slow like he isn't aware the game has started?

Go look back at all the first halves of these SBs.

You stat hound Millennials for fantasy scores, have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here. Every QB in the league throws for approx 300 yards now in todays's game.

If Brady leads us to TDs as opposed to FGs in the first half, we can control the game play with a lead and probably win.

Why is it that the D always has to have its collective balls pinned to the wall in an offensive era.

Phillys' D was SHREDDED WORSE than ours, yet no one says anything.

Wake up. It's an offensive war of attrition. That's the league. Our QB was out-performed in the first half and essentially matched in the second half, in terms of how each played.

His statistical yardage was off the charts, yes. But, as we know, yards between the 20s mean pretty much jack squat.

It's like we now have a whole generation of Millennials that equate fantasy points to QB play itself.

lol

 

[sb1]

But, this is a team sport, and if BB turned to JimmyG next year, I have no doubts he'd have us 11-5 or 12-4 next year, win thedivision and possibly back in the title game.

I'm not sure I agree re JG. He would have never gotten the opportunity and experience here that he had in SF this year and judging by his short stint here, 6 quarters of meaningful football that to be honest have been quite overrated, I question whether he would be good enough to take this team to the next level. Again... he would have never seen the light of day as a starter barring Brady injury and that includes 2018.

I am with you on BB however.

 

[tasmlab]

Guys, I missed the season - did we go 8-8 again and miss the playoffs this year?

 

[Chris Stevenson]

I'm not sure I agree re JG. He would have never gotten the opportunity and experience here that he had in SF this year and judging by his short stint here, 6 quarters of meaningful football that to be honest have been quite overrated, I question whether he would be good enough to take this team to the next level. Again... he would have never seen the light of day as a starter barring Brady injury and that includes 2018.

I am with you on BB however.

Well, IMO, I have no doubt that JimmyG is a very good QB for SF for the next decade. Just my opinion. He meets all the checked off boxes you should want in a franchise QB.

Every year, I say "12-4 or better and pray for health"..With JG, I would say "10-6 or better and pray for health"...

The environment BB has provided with hi cap formula and everything else he does to provide a quality environment, is how I know Brady wouldn't be as great anywhere else.

If Pitt drafted Brady, $100 Cowher may not even have kept him on cutdown day or he would have been buried behind Kordell Stewart.

Again, the Brady prototype of a QB was pretty new even if BB wanted it while he was in Cleveland. Teams were still looking at Jeff George prototypes back in those days talking aboutt "arm strength" and size. Stuff like that.

Now, smart teams are looking for the next Brady because of BB (and **** Rhebein).

 

[luuked]

Millennials are funny.

I don't know if you do this as a schtick or something but please reconsider throwing in this passive aggressive **** into every second of your posts. I can only talk from my own POV but I can't take anything serious that you write afterwards and often just stop reading your posts.

You clearly are taking effort and time to write them so it is sad that this is wasted just to throw out a passive aggressive punch at some people.

 

[RobertWeathers]

To say this game was on Belichick is an understatement. The burning of a timeout in the fourth quarter just for a 3rd and 6 when the Eagles weren't even on midfield was questionable. That's nonsense we would laugh at other coaches for doing if it they were to wish they had it back. Even if they get the first down, it's not the end of the world. Those timeouts are valuable.

The gameplan was atrocious. The bend but don't break nonsense is getting old. It only works by relying on your opponents to commit mistakes such as penalties, errant throws, and turnovers. Aside from Zach Ertz's false start in the opening drive, Philly didn't make a major mistake afterwards. The Pats took nothing away defensively. Bill didn't get his guys ready and prepared to make tackles to force 3rd down stops. He hasn't had a great defensive gameplan in almost 15 years. By the way, that was when he had Ty Law, Teddy, Vrabel, Harrison, McGuiness, and more that he inherited from Parcells.

Hoodie is the best of all time. Don't get me wrong. However, part of that is attributed to how he consistently relies on his opposing coaches being dumber than him. He teaches his players to not lunge for the endzone to avoid what happened with Jessie James in the Steelers game (Tomlin isn't a good enough coach to emphasize such as a thing). So many coaches mismanage timeouts (Andy Reid), get a delay of game after timeouts (Marone in the Bortles play), leave Gronk covered one on one with someone that can't do it (Tomlin), and hurriedly calls for a slant passes in the congested endzone with the game on the line (Pete Carol). The issue becomes what happens when he faces a coach that isn't going to make those type of mistakes with a talented roster? (Coughlin, the Hardbaughs, and now Pederson).

I know Butler had an illness but if he was okay enough to play special teams, he surely could have gotten some snaps on defense. Furthermore, it surely doesn't explain why Rowe was placed on Jeffrey instead of Gilmore in the first quarter. The inexplicable decision cost the pats points early in the game. Once Gilmore went on Jeffrey, he shut the receiver down. Why wasn't he on Jeffrey from the start? Also, did Bill not watch the Vikings' game to see that stopping the slants on these RPOs would lead to deep balls? It killed the Vikings. It didn't kill the Falcons only giving up slants as the Eagles only scored 15 points. No real gameplan was installed. Don't only scapegoat Patricia. Bill is a defensive minded coach so he's there with him making these decisions and he hired him anyway. Good luck Stafford and the Lions.

Once again, Brady played well enough to win. Bill has been relying on opponents screwing up and Brady bailing him out time after time after time (Seahawks and Falcons game). He and the front office have gotten complacent again with this roster. It is devoid of talent in the front seven compared to the teams they've face. The quality drop in the league as it pertains to smart play and the success they pulled out have made them believe everyone else is stupid. However, tonight the Eagles proved otherwise.

You could argue Bill the general manager and the head coach has cost Brady more rings. I am not saying Brady has always been perfect. No one is. But he has played well, especially today, to win. I'm waiting for Bill to have great gameplans. He's been installing simple plans like having a tight end chip on a pass rusher like JJ Watt or double teaming a receiver like Hopkins. Some thing most teams are too stupid to replicate but instead whine about the Patriots winning.

People talk about the system. Brady has had different offensive coordinators that he makes look good because of his ability to read defenses, make accurate throws, sense pass rush, look off linebackers and safeties, not throw to receivers he doesn't trust, lead receivers, and exploit mismatches on the field. I used to get frustrated watching Patriot teams such as the 2011 Patriots put out guys like Russ Ventrone at the secondary but relying on Brady bailing them out. These two Superbowls were won because Brady has gotten even better the last 4 years and due to teams choking. In this game, our opponents surprisingly didn't choke and that's why we lost. I know other guys stepped up and did their job like Bill preaches but they're still getting outplayed and out schemed for stretches.

History repeated itself. This game felt awfully similar to the late fourth quarter of the 2011 Giants Superbowl game. Belichick is a great coach with his attention to detail, mastery of the rule book, his ability to find hard working guys and put them in position to succeed, his teams being discipline, and his in game management. However, we've seen that only works if his roster is very talented and can make plays and or Brady being Brady. Once a coach actually has a clue and faces Bill, the Hoodie isn't always besting them with his simple gameplans. Hopefully, the Pats will learn from this and load up like how they did in 2014 following those previous seasons of the same playoff failures from the same aforementioned reasons.

There. You've vented. Feel better?

 

[ivanvamp]

Lets stop giving Belichick a pass becausw of his ealier success. His defenses have sucked for 10 seasons,

Last 10 years defensive rankings for NE:

2008: #8 points, #10 yards, DSRS* 1.6
2009: #5 points, #11 yards, DSRS 4.5
2010: #8 points, #25 yards, DSRS 2.8
2011: #15 points, #31 yards, DSRS -0.1
2012: #9 points, #25 yards, DSRS 0.5
2013: #10 points, #26 yards, DSRS 1.4
2014: #8 points, #13 yards, DSRS 3.5
2015: #10 points, #9 yards, DSRS 1.7
2016: #1 points, #8 yards, DSRS 5.0
2017: #5 points, #29 yards, DSRS 2.6

AVG: #7.9 points, #18.7 yards, DSRS 2.4

*DSRS is pro-football-reference's weighted defensive metric. Average is 0.0.

The Patriots, over the last 10 years, have been an upper-tier scoring defense, a mediocre defense in terms of yardage allowed, and an above-average defense when weighted for opponent, etc. That's not remotely a defense that has "sucked for 10 seasons". It's actually, on the whole, pretty good.

and he gets a pass because he won 5 trophies,

Yes he does. Or at least the benefit of the doubt, being the greatest coach in NFL history and all.

despite the D embarrassing themselves nearly all season.

This is another false claim. They embarrassed themselves in the first four weeks (really 3 of the 4 weeks - they were great against New Orleans), and then the rest of the season they were terrific.

First Four Weeks: 32.0 points, 456.8 yards, 24.3 first downs allowed
Last 12 Weeks: 14.0 points, 335.8 yards, 19.0 first downs allowed

You can talk about strength of schedule or whatever, but the fact is, the Patriots kept the other team from scoring, and they DRASTICALLY reduced the other teams' yardage and first downs gained. 14.0 points, 335.8 yards, 19.0 first downs are not numbers of a defense that is "embarrassing themselves". Like, not at all.

Unfortunately, they were pretty awful in the Super Bowl, but I've already addressed a huge reason why in this thread:

The Key Reason for the Super Bowl Offensive Explosion[/QUOTE]

 

[Chris Stevenson]

I don't know if you do this as a schtick or something but please reconsider throwing in this passive aggressive **** into every second of your posts. I can only talk from my own POV but I can't take anything serious that you write afterwards and often just stop reading your posts.

You clearly are taking effort and time to write them so it is sad that this is wasted just to throw out a passive aggressive punch at some people.

Dude, sorry, but it's so true. Someone above disagreed with my comments, doesn't counter, then runs away in a Brady jersey, a video game controller, a dark basement, 6 fantasy leagues and then tuning into Felger/Mazz at 2PM everyday.

It's just not healthy.

It's a team game. Ideally, you want all 3 phases to play a good, fundamental clean game from Q1-Q4. Is this something you don't want out of your team? if so, why?

Obviously, as it turned out the D could not make a stop, to try to help ice the game. I get it.

But, why don't the other portions of the game count when discussing Brady and the offense?

I don't get it.

If Brady is so vastly superior to everybody, why does he sort of meander through a first half a SB?

And, BB needs blame for this too, but if Brady is so amazing, why isn't he held accountable for sluggish starts, too?

Just curious. Why can't we be the ones to go up 10 or 14-0 and try to dictate?

I brought this up last week, talked about some other things, warned of it, and here we are again.

 

[Ivan]

I don't know if you do this as a schtick or something but please reconsider throwing in this passive aggressive **** into every second of your posts. I can only talk from my own POV but I can't take anything serious that you write afterwards and often just stop reading your posts.

You clearly are taking effort and time to write them so it is sad that this is wasted just to throw out a passive aggressive punch at some people.

He’s an idiot.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

Last 10 years defensive rankings for NE:

2008: #8 points, #10 yards, DSRS* 1.6
2009: #5 points, #11 yards, DSRS 4.5
2010: #8 points, #25 yards, DSRS 2.8
2011: #15 points, #31 yards, DSRS -0.1
2012: #9 points, #25 yards, DSRS 0.5
2013: #10 points, #26 yards, DSRS 1.4
2014: #8 points, #13 yards, DSRS 3.5
2015: #10 points, #9 yards, DSRS 1.7
2016: #1 points, #8 yards, DSRS 5.0
2017: #5 points, #29 yards, DSRS 2.6

AVG: #7.9 points, #18.7 yards, DSRS 2.4

*DSRS is pro-football-reference's weighted defensive metric. Average is 0.0.

The Patriots, over the last 10 years, have been an upper-tier scoring defense, a mediocre defense in terms of yardage allowed, and an above-average defense when weighted for opponent, etc. That's not remotely a defense that has "sucked for 10 seasons". It's actually, on the whole, pretty good.



Yes he does. Or at least the benefit of the doubt, being the greatest coach in NFL history and all.



This is another false claim. They embarrassed themselves in the first four weeks (really 3 of the 4 weeks - they were great against New Orleans), and then the rest of the season they were terrific.

First Four Weeks: 32.0 points, 456.8 yards, 24.3 first downs allowed
Last 12 Weeks: 14.0 points, 335.8 yards, 19.0 first downs allowed

You can talk about strength of schedule or whatever, but the fact is, the Patriots kept the other team from scoring, and they DRASTICALLY reduced the other teams' yardage and first downs gained. 14.0 points, 335.8 yards, 19.0 first downs are not numbers of a defense that is "embarrassing themselves". Like, not at all.

Unfortunately, they were pretty awful in the Super Bowl, but I've already addressed a huge reason why in this thread:

The Key Reason for the Super Bowl Offensive Explosion

[/QUOTE]


Thank you. Brady Lust Lovers don't like facts.

It's an offensive era, and our D has never fared worse than #15 in all of those years in points allowed. That's very, very good. So, 9/10 years they were top 10 in points allowed.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

He’s an idiot.

If I am such an idiot, how on earth can I predict things so consistently? That makes no sense.

Go look at the gameplan threads and read what I wrote. Literally everything I said needed to happen, really didn't.