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Can you point me to clinical reviews that show long-term health issues as a result of COVID-19? Serious question. I Googled it, looked on Google Scholar and all I can find are instances of inflammation that linger, but no evidence of long-term effects. I keep seeing this written in the forum but I can not find any supporting documentation. Someone posted a German study that showed lingering inflammation in older individuals, but there is nothing in the study that states the inflammation causes long-term scarring/damage. Still looking for a peer-reviewed journal article or equivalent. I realize it might be early days for a study, so if the evidence is anecdotal I understand, but repeated anecdotal evidence is not "more and more" evidence.

As stated above E Rodrgiuez has lingering inflammation (myocarditis), but at this point is expected to fully recover, albeit a delayed recovery. It is possible that E Rod will not recover, but to date there is no data to suggest that.
I've struggled to find much of anything on this as well. The concept of long-term damage is repeated a lot but I can't find much that supports it. Most I've seen is one study that showed some percentage of a group of survivors who averaged around age 50ish had lingering inflammation. 100% open to learning more if anyone can share though!

This thread is pretty OT but everyone's mostly being respectful so it's OK, let's just continue to be respectful.
 
It's a good question, what is known about long-term effects. I can say without risk of contradiction that for a virus discovered in December 2019, we know precisely **** about what effects will make themselves known 1 year, 2 years, 5 years, 20 years down the line. The first thing to say is that we can see some effects, but that the big thing we know is that we don't know. We all agree that we'll know more a year down the road.

Is caution or recklessness a better idea with a novel pathogen? We all have answers to that. The "caution" answer has the advantage of being right.

But let's start with what we have seen; the recent study in German patients is naturally all over the place right now. It does demonstrate that those who recover see increased incidence of new serious cardiological illness (the cohort in the study had no heart disease to start with.)

Covid-19 leaves its impact on the heart, raising fears of lasting damage
These were relatively young, healthy patients who fell ill in the spring, Valentina Puntmann, who led the MRI study, pointed out in an interview. Many of them had just returned from ski vacations. None of them thought they had anything wrong with their hearts.

“The fact that 78% of ‘recovered’ [patients] had evidence of ongoing heart involvement means that the heart is involved in a majority of patients, even if Covid-19 illness does not scream out with the classical heart symptoms, such as anginal chest pain,” she told STAT. She is a cardiologist at University Hospital Frankfurt. “In my view, the relatively clear onset of Covid-19 illness provides an opportunity to take proactive action and to look for heart involvement early.”

What Are the Long-Term Effects of COVID-19? - COVID-19, Featured, Health Topics - Hackensack Meridian Health

We should indeed be careful about what is just beginning to be found out. The only kind of information we have on recovered patients is basically preliminary. If you want to replicate results, or you have to set up that experiment.

The question's the same. It's fair to say, we have the info. we have so far. Not more, not less. We have our faves. Do we like their chances more or less given preliminary and partial proof that lasting health effects are also in the cards?

More:

Lungs:
What Long-Term Effects Could COVID-19 Have on Your Lungs? | Banner

However, Dr. Bime emphasized that this coronavirus causes a well-known syndrome known as Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (ARDS)... people who have recovered from ARDS may deal with:
  • Limited lung capacity compared to their peers.
  • Psychiatric issues such as Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), depression, cognitive impairment, and anxiety, due to the trauma of the illness and treatment.
  • Kidney complications which could lead to a need for long-term dialysis.
  • Poor conditioning due to limited lung and/or organ function.
Lifelong Lung Damage: A Serious COVID-19 Complication
“Holes in the lung likely refers to an entity that has been dubbed ‘post-COVID fibrosis,’ otherwise known as post-ARDS [acute respiratory distress syndrome] fibrosis,” said Dr. Lori Shah, transplant pulmonologist at New York-Presbyterian/Columbia University Irving Medical Center.

Neurological:
What are the neurological complications of COVID-19?

A recent report, led by experts from the Institute of Neurology at University College London, describes cases of delirium, brain inflammation, stroke, and nerve damage associated with COVID-19.

The authors say that their report, which is published in the journal Brain, provides a template to help researchers around the world improve the diagnosis and treatment of the neurological complications of COVID-19.

So you get the idea. Each study shows things that you damn well don't want to invite into your life, but that, in any given case, could be explained by something else, yielding an "it was once thought that..." story in retrospect.

In addition, it is a virtual certainty that the alternate reality brigade will be weighing in every step along the way, purposefully making their culture war point that whatever is most likely is nevertheless deniable, and whatever is least likely is not impossible, to the point that they're presently singing the praises a woman who claims medicine is derived from alien DNA, and that the cause of ob/gyn problems is dream sex with demons (is there any other kind?)

I think it's useful to have the right frame: so far, it hasn't been a bad idea to take this virus seriously. When you see early indications of a harm from this virus, the most successful strategies tend to derive from not spreading the virus. We even fight about whether it's a good or a bad thing to infect each other though. So I know people are not making sense about this. Apparently there was a post here that didn't make much sense, but it appears to have gone away by the time I signed on.

The winning strategy in the question of whether it is good or bad to be cautious depends on the downside. For example, if NFL players are likely to starve to death by missing a season, it's a no brainer that they should play. If, on the other hand, they have the means to afford a humble hovel and cheap pasta meals for them and their families until a vaccine is available, it becomes a better strategy to be cautious about the risk. If some of them have actually banked, say, a few hundred K, for them I think that until there's a cure, playing anyway makes little sense. But we'll see what they choose, if there is a season.
 
heh....I mean....there it is. The wall of voodoo...again...for the what seems like 10,000th time. Take the above post and go into any thread in the Pub...it's a template. Day in, day out...the same horseshyt.
 
Most I've seen is one study that showed some percentage of a group of survivors who averaged around age 50ish had lingering inflammation. 100% open to learning more if anyone can share though!

If this is the study you're thinking of, the majority of subjects in the study showed lingering heart inflammation, and whopping 78% cardiac involvement of some kind -- "independent of preexisting conditions, severity and overall course of the acute illness, and the time from the original diagnosis." That's pretty darned bad.

Outcomes of Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance Imaging in Patients Recently Recovered From COVID-19
 
I only have 2 minutes. Question: We know there's an apparently very small chance of death for an athlete in his 20s through early 40s of death from coronavirus.

We know pretty much about those rates.

But we are hearing more and more about permanent health effects even of moderate cases.

I am for players having the choice to opt out, of course. I am only wondering whether it might be wise to root for your faves to do so.

I don't think there will be a season, and not a long one if there is. But what if there is? what are everyone's thoughts on assessing long-term health risk?


the reason we as a nation are not getting a handle on this virus is the premise that as long as you are not likely to die from it, just go ahead an act like nothing else matters. It is people getting it and it continue to pass it on to people who don't get affected until it reaches someone who does.
 
If this is the study you're thinking of, the majority of subjects in the study showed lingering heart inflammation, and whopping 78% cardiac involvement of some kind -- "independent of preexisting conditions, severity and overall course of the acute illness, and the time from the original diagnosis." That's pretty darned bad.

Outcomes of Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance Imaging in Patients Recently Recovered From COVID-19

Thanks Patchick.

The article title notes "recently recovered". The average time in the study between testing positive for COVID-19 and the MRI was 71 days, so roughly 2 months after contracting COVID, 36% of the patients state they still have shortness of breath and are not fully recovered. I do not think it is surprising that some people have internal inflammation 2 months after contracting COVID, especially those who have not fully recovered and still have shortness of breath (hence the phrase "recently recovered" in the title). These patients may fully recover in a few more months. That is not to say these issues should not be concerning, but I do not think it is "pretty darn bad" to have some inflammation 71 days after COVID, especially if the patient has not fully recovered. Let's wait a bit longer to see if there is lingering long term inflammation.

Also the study notes the results do not apply to 18 year olds and younger. The Patriots are a bit older than 18, but much younger than the median age in the study of 49. So any link between the study's results and the Patriots' players is weak.
 
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It's a good question, what is known about long-term effects. I can say without risk of contradiction that for a virus discovered in December 2019, we know precisely **** about what effects will make themselves known 1 year, 2 years, 5 years, 20 years down the line. The first thing to say is that we can see some effects, but that the big thing we know is that we don't know. We all agree that we'll know more a year down the road.

Is caution or recklessness a better idea with a novel pathogen? We all have answers to that. The "caution" answer has the advantage of being right.

But let's start with what we have seen; the recent study in German patients is naturally all over the place right now. It does demonstrate that those who recover see increased incidence of new serious cardiological illness (the cohort in the study had no heart disease to start with.)

Covid-19 leaves its impact on the heart, raising fears of lasting damage


What Are the Long-Term Effects of COVID-19? - COVID-19, Featured, Health Topics - Hackensack Meridian Health

We should indeed be careful about what is just beginning to be found out. The only kind of information we have on recovered patients is basically preliminary. If you want to replicate results, or you have to set up that experiment.

The question's the same. It's fair to say, we have the info. we have so far. Not more, not less. We have our faves. Do we like their chances more or less given preliminary and partial proof that lasting health effects are also in the cards?

More:

Lungs:
What Long-Term Effects Could COVID-19 Have on Your Lungs? | Banner


Lifelong Lung Damage: A Serious COVID-19 Complication


Neurological:
What are the neurological complications of COVID-19?



So you get the idea. Each study shows things that you damn well don't want to invite into your life, but that, in any given case, could be explained by something else, yielding an "it was once thought that..." story in retrospect.

In addition, it is a virtual certainty that the alternate reality brigade will be weighing in every step along the way, purposefully making their culture war point that whatever is most likely is nevertheless deniable, and whatever is least likely is not impossible, to the point that they're presently singing the praises a woman who claims medicine is derived from alien DNA, and that the cause of ob/gyn problems is dream sex with demons (is there any other kind?)

I think it's useful to have the right frame: so far, it hasn't been a bad idea to take this virus seriously. When you see early indications of a harm from this virus, the most successful strategies tend to derive from not spreading the virus. We even fight about whether it's a good or a bad thing to infect each other though. So I know people are not making sense about this. Apparently there was a post here that didn't make much sense, but it appears to have gone away by the time I signed on.

The winning strategy in the question of whether it is good or bad to be cautious depends on the downside. For example, if NFL players are likely to starve to death by missing a season, it's a no brainer that they should play. If, on the other hand, they have the means to afford a humble hovel and cheap pasta meals for them and their families until a vaccine is available, it becomes a better strategy to be cautious about the risk. If some of them have actually banked, say, a few hundred K, for them I think that until there's a cure, playing anyway makes little sense. But we'll see what they choose, if there is a season.

I think the options are cautious or overly cautious - no-one is advocating for reckless behavior like some at the beaches or others marching in protests.

Although COVID-19 is a new virus, and hence called "novel", it is quite similar to other viruses. Three vaccines are in Stage 3 trials after less than 6 months - those are the fastest virus vaccine developments ever! Why have the developments been so fast? Because COVID-19, although new, is quite similar to other viruses already studied. Accordingly we can draw lessons from previous similar viruses, just like we applied our previous research to the vaccine definition.

You say "study", but you did not post any studies - you posted news articles based on testimony and anecdotal evidence. A "study" is a peer reviewed, scientifically controlled protocol that is published in a journal. Bannerhealth.com is a blog, Hackensack is again a blog, Healthline is a news service, and MedicalNewsToday (what a name) is a news service. It might upset you, or you might think I am being flippant, but all of these blogs and news services are anecdotal. The German study is valid but their testing was on patients who contracted COVID-19 an average of 71 days prior, and over 1/3 of their patients complained of lingering chest tightness meaning those patients had not yet healed from their viral infection (you state "those that have recovered" but the journal article notes 36% still had not fully recovered - please read the whole article). So it is a good study out of Germany, and we should keep monitoring the situation in a scientific manner, but it is way too early to draw conclusions. You state that "preliminary and partial proof" and then go on to link to blogs and news services. No-one can draw proof, preliminary or partial, from anecdotal evidence. Possibly you meant to use a different phrase since you stated it was early days yet?

Some say there is no smoke without a fire. In this situation if we want to find a fire, I think we have to look for smoke that is supported by peer reviewed journal articles, not blogs and news services. I hope you agree. You appear to favor being overly cautious which is fine. Others might chose to be simply cautious. That is what makes the USA strong - diversity.
 
Wouldn’t this approach lead to wanting players to quit because of the risk of brain trauma and CTE? It’s much greater than the risk of COVID.

To me, they are players and their play is my concern. Their health and their personal life and decisions are their concern and not my business
as someone who’s only relationship to them is that they landed on the team I root for.

Spot on.

So what's more likely to kill a human being:

(i) Going about living life C-virus be damned?

(ii) Boarding a commercial airline flight?
 
Spot on.

So what's more likely to kill a human being:

(i) Going about living life C-virus be damned?

(ii) Boarding a commercial airline flight?
It's looking like covid-19 will end up being 3rd leading cause of death in 2020 behind heart attacks and cancer.
 
If this is the study you're thinking of, the majority of subjects in the study showed lingering heart inflammation, and whopping 78% cardiac involvement of some kind -- "independent of preexisting conditions, severity and overall course of the acute illness, and the time from the original diagnosis." That's pretty darned bad.

Interested in the specifics.

How many "subjects" are we talking about here?

Are you sure there are detailed and comprehensive medical histories available for each and every "subject" prior to their C-virus diagnosis? And all of said charts are clear & clean?

Another question, how many people do you know who have actually had the virus? If any, what has their experience been?
 
It's looking like covid-19 will end up being 3rd leading cause of death in 2020 behind heart attacks and cancer.

Again, what's more likely to kill a human being:

(i) Going about living life C-virus be damned?

(ii) Boarding a commercial airline flight?
 
Again, what's more likely to kill a human being:

(i) Going about living life C-virus be damned?

(ii) Boarding a commercial airline flight?

Is this a trick question? You're not providing enough detail.

1. Are you insinuating that the airline flight would crash? That would be an accident which is currently #3 cause of deaths but that's for all accidents, so dying from an airline crash is probably way down there. Covid will be at #3 in a few weeks.
2. I suppose that getting on an airline flight could cause you to catch Covid-19 and depending on your underlying health, age and other factors, could kill you.
3. Going about living life, C-virus be damned means what exactly? Attending a political rally in a hot zone with thousands of people without a mask and no social distancing?

I'd have to say that under both your scenarios Covid could get you so the answer is both.

Unless you are currently dying from cancer or you drop dead from a heart attack, odds are you'll die from Covid over any other cause this year.
 
Is this a trick question?

You're not providing enough detail.

No, not a trick question.

Put another way...

(i) Did you ever take a commercial airline flight any time between 2004 and 2019?

If so, what level of risk did you assign to that activity and how worried were you about perishing in a plane crash?

(ii) Assuming you did fly commercially in that 15-year time frame --- how do you assess the relative risk of going out and living a normal life in 2020 given the "threat" of the C-virus?

Do you believe living a normal life in 2020 puts you at greater risk of perishing from the C-virus than boarding a commercial airline flight in the prior 15-years?
 
Last edited:
Do you believe living a normal life in 2020 puts you at greater risk of perishing from the C-virus than boarding a commercial airline flight in the prior 15-years?
Yes
 
No, not a trick question.

Put another way...

(i) Did you ever take a commercial airline flight any time between 2004 and 2019?

If so, what level of risk did you assign to that activity and how worried were you about perishing in a plane crash?

(ii) Assuming you did fly commercially in that 15-year time frame --- how do you assess the relative risk of going out and living a normal life in 2020 given the "threat" of the C-virus?

Do you believe living a normal life in 2020 puts you at greater risk of perishing from the C-virus than boarding a commercial airline flight in the prior 15-years?

Honestly curious to see your math here. Even with lock-downs, social distancing etc, about 150000 in the US died from COVID-19 in about 4 months (i.e., ~1 out of 2000). There has been 1 death on a commercial flight in the US since 2009, out of 200M passengers per year. I know which seems safer to me.
 
Thank you, Dr. Fauci.

How do you know it wasn't Dr Birx?

heh....I mean....there it is. The wall of voodoo...again...for the what seems like 10,000th time. Take the above post and go into any thread in the Pub...it's a template. Day in, day out...the same horseshyt.

I was hoping this thread was going to actually be about the Pats players opting out. I was wrong and should have known better.
 
Do people actually believe that "rooting" or "wishful thinking" for a particular outcome has any bearing whatsoever on the outcome of professional sports? In another context R E A L I T Y.

Nothing that you do has any effect on spectator sports. The players are not going to call you up for your feedback on matters.
Nothing that is posted on this board effects change of any sort. All we do is post words and opinions and then it disappears into the drain of insignificance for eternity

But sometimes it does feel good to vent!
 
It's looking like covid-19 will end up being 3rd leading cause of death in 2020 behind heart attacks and cancer.

What if the heart attack and cancer victims are being counted as virus deaths? That would change things.
 
heh....I mean....there it is. The wall of voodoo...again...for the what seems like 10,000th time. Take the above post and go into any thread in the Pub...it's a template. Day in, day out...the same horseshyt.
Although I post in the Pub often, I can say with certainty it’s a cesspool of redundancy
 
Again, what's more likely to kill a human being:

(i) Going about living life C-virus be damned?

(ii) Boarding a commercial airline flight?
Thankfully no one is allowed to live life in a covid be damned manner.
 
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