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DRAFT BGC 2021 Pre-Draft/Patriot-Type Prospect(s) thread

2021 Patriots Season:
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Pick Results: MIA: 0% at NE: 0%

Sun
Sep 12th

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BaconGrundleCandy

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I wonder what the story is with Collins. That's a lot of weight to add since then. Perhaps he drops a bit because of it? As long as it's not bad weight, that's ideal size for our multiple defense. Hightower and Vrabel both played around that size. Gives him more outside versatility. He's not as much of a thumper as they were, and less suited to playing on the line, but he's significantly better in space. If we don't go QB, Smith and Collins would be an excellent 1-2 start, sticking with the theme of players perceived to be falling.
From what I've read, teams want to try Collins at EDGE. I think he's a pretty dynamic athlete, but I don't see him as a full time end of the line player. He's better in space. Regardless, if he's showing versatility, I don't think the weight will hurt his stock at all.
Agreed I couldn't imagine him playing full-time at edge but who knows, we'll see what teams have in mind. He carries it very well but 270 is huge. I guess that's about right if you're planning on giving him legit reps outside, not just blitzing him. Still though that's the plan though??

Where would you start him at first?
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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About the only draft thing we've seen take a massive turn lately is the ridiculous turn on the QBs to the point where pocket passers are now "lower ceiling" players just by being pocket passers. And, as for taking an RB in the first round, it's pretty much like every other non-ST position: If he's a first round talent, you should feel free to take him in the first round.
Which "pocket passers" have come in the league that deserved that praise but didn't get it?

NFL teams will spend a first on you (Rosen, Haskins) but pure pocket passers haven't exactly been tearing up the league. I think the issue is the prospects.

Which is a whole other story bc those guys just aren't the ones coming up through HS/College.

I'd also asked wheres Mac Jones upside? Sure he could improve on a few things but where is the upside? Let's play it out even further ... 49ers take him at 3. Can you envision him being better than Stafford, Murray or Wilson?

Anyone can answer if they want. I'd love to hear any genuine opinions.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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Is Trevor Lawrence clearly the best quarterback and the first overall pick?

QB Coach 1:
He’s the no-brainer top guy. I was trying to be critical and not just go with the flow, but the more you study him and the other guys, he’s the best by a wide margin. What does he not do well? I had (Joe) Burrow as a better prospect. His film was insane. (LSU) had empty protection and was putting a lot on Joe. Trevor’s offense at Clemson is smart and safe. He’s 6 feet 6 and he’ll be 225-230 pounds. I’m not worried about his weight now because he has a torn labrum (in his left, non-throwing shoulder), and he can’t keep weight on because of that. He’s really athletic — you’re not running away from guys at Ohio State if you’re not fast. He can anticipate and (he) throws with touch. He’s mature, and I was really impressed with his character.

QB Coach 1: The good with Zach Wilson is really good, but the bad can be really, really bad. And when he goes to a bad team like the Jets and he’s trying to win games, those are big concerns. To me he’s kinda like Patrick Mahomes coming out of college. People think now about Mahomes as the Super Bowl-winning quarterback and how great he is now, but coming out of Texas Tech, he was not this surefire guy. He was uber-talented arm-wise, and he does a lot of stuff that is really sexy now, but he threw a lot of bad picks, and his decision-making, I thought, was really inconsistent. With Wilson, you see a lot of, ‘Why would you even try that?’ When he gets to the NFL he’s got to retool his game, and you’re gonna have to let him learn what he can throw and can’t throw, but unlike Mahomes, Zach won’t have Andy Reid to coach him and a year behind Alex Smith to learn from.

I could see Zach being a Pro Bowl QB quickly like (Justin) Herbert or I could see him being like Drew Lock. If I had to bet money, I’d bet it doesn’t work out for him with the Jets. Zach playing right away in that market with his play style — woof — that’d make me really nervous. And unlike Trey (Lance) and Justin (Fields), at least they’re 6-4, 230 and can run. So if he starts ****ting the bed, we can get out of the game running the ball like Josh Allen did as a rookie in Buffalo.

I expected him to be Drew Lock-ish (in his interview); I did not get that vibe. He was great; smart. He knows we’re not gonna take him and he could’ve been a total dick and that it probably wouldn’t have hurt him, but he wasn’t. He knew his offense; we put on bad clips and he took ownership, all of that.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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Who has the best arm of this QB class? Most say Trey Lance, but there’s concern about his small sample size.

QB Coach 1:
He’s a tough evaluation. His maturity is A+. His football IQ is A+. He’s a team guy; very self-aware. He just needs to play more. He’s a little like Josh Allen coming out of Wyoming, where it could be rocky the first few years but you trust him. Trey needs a year or two. Josh took three. Josh had that amazing arm, it’s like him Mahomes and (Aaron) Rodgers have the biggest arms in the league, but I do think Trey is a lot more refined coming out than Allen was. I think he’ll be fine even if he doesn’t reach his full potential.

Fields
QB Coach 1: I have him rated fifth (among the quarterbacks). He’s super efficient, very productive. He’s 230 pounds and runs a 4.4, but I’m not sure that he sees the field that well. … He’s better when he’s letting the game come to him. Don’t question his toughness. He played with two cracked ribs (against Clemson) and played like a week later. He’s tough as **** mentally and physically.

QB Coach 2: In my mind, if I had to win right now, this year, he’s the most advanced quarterback of any of them. I think Trevor’s the best. I’m cosigning on him, but his system adjustment will be much bigger than Mac. Jones is gonna walk in Day One and just have to flip terminology because he’s gonna know pro football. He’s been coached by Sark (Steve Sarkisian). He understands run checks, understands moving protections — not that these others don’t, but he’s on a different level.

The question is, are Mac Jones’ physical tools worthy of being a top-5 pick or even first-round? I don’t know that his physical abilities warrant that, but if you tell me that I have to win now, I think his physicals are good enough. How many guys in the history of football in 12 games against top college competition threw for 4,500 yards, throw 41 touchdowns and only four picks and completed 77 percent in a pro system? Some guys at pro days don’t do 77 percent on air.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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WR Coach No. 1: He plays much bigger than he is. I don’t know if it’s a knock, but I’m not sure his ball skills are elite, but he has so many other elite traits.

He’s a grown man with the ball in his hands. He runs some out routes so smooth. He matches his lower body with his upper body, and that takes a long time. He’s really able to drop his hips. I love DeVonta Smith, but he’s 31 pounds lighter than Chase.

WR Coach No. 1: DeVonta has unbelievable hand-eye coordination and body control with elite ball skills. It’s so natural. He’s instinctual as ****. He feels it and he knows where the spots are. He’s gonna be a good player and be solid and will play every position. He studies; he loves it. I am concerned about him only being 170 pounds, though. It’s the world we live in, man. Big guys beat up little guys. When you take a shot from the side from these monsters, that’s when you get AC issues and collarbone issues. He’s tough as ****. He will bite your face off. He’s gonna try. He won’t back down, but is he gonna win the battle?

Waddle is a game-changer. He’s way rawer than DeVonta. He’s absolutely explosive and elite with the ball in his hands.

OLE MISS’ ELIJAH MOORE

WR Coach No. 1:
I liked him. He can do a lot of stuff. Is a good kid, tough. They really had no route tree there and were just going as fast as they can. He was impressive in interviews; really candid. Was mature.

AUBURN’S SETH WILLIAMS

WR Coach No. 3:
There’s no doubt he’s talented, but there’s something missing there
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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CLEMSON’S AMARI ROGERS

WR Coach No. 2: I think he can actually play in the backfield. He has legit size. He’s a lot like (Saints running back) Ty Montgomery. He’s a north-south runner; very little wasted motion; I think his skills translate to the NFL game well.

WR Coach No. 3: He was outstanding in our interview. He’s a coach’s kid so you’d expect him to do well, but he was off the charts.

Bingo
Parsons
Scout No. 1: There’s some high maintenance there. You watched him play and there was so much freelance. He’s such a freak athlete and they just let him run around and make plays. In the box, he’ll run underneath blocks. He likes to guess and makes plays. He’s gonna run and try to make every play. You wonder, will he study the games?

MIAMI EDGE RUSHER JAELAN PHILLIPS

Defensive Coach No. 1:
He reminds me a lot of Bradley Chubb. He doesn’t play the run as good as Chubb but rushes the passer as well. Phillips is a freaky athlete and I think he could be 280 tomorrow. Did well in his interviews. He was not bashful; I thought he was mature; sounded like he’s figured it out. He didn’t shy away from the questions people have about him. He attacked it all head-on.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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PENN STATE EDGE RUSHER JAYSON OWEH

Defensive Coach No. 1:
You just don’t find defensive ends who can run a 4.35. He is such a freak athlete. I know he didn’t have any sacks last year, but he was still really disruptive. He does things that don’t show up on the stat sheet. You watch their Indiana game, and he hit the quarterback like 10 times. He’s not soft. I think he’s way better than Yetur Gross-Matos (who went to Carolina at No. 38 last year). He’s got a way higher ceiling.

Scout No. 1 on Houston edge rusher Payton Turner: I love him. This guy is so long-armed and he’s really smart. He had a really high Wonderlic score.

WR Coach No. 3 on LSU’s Racey McMath: He could play eight to 10 years in the NFL on special teams. He’s that tough and good at it. He’s also a good enough wide receiver where if you needed to use him, you could. He actually has really good hands, but he’s just a little stiff, so winning against good corners is hard for him.
 
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BaconGrundleCandy

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MICHIGAN EDGE RUSHER KWITY PAYE

Defensive Coach No. 1: He’s a very good athlete, but I thought he plays kinda small; not physical.

Scout No. 2: Paye is very explosive and has crazy workout numbers, but he’s still pretty raw and figuring things out.

ALABAMA DEFENSIVE TACKLE CHRISTIAN BARMORE

Scout No. 1:
He’s a little stiff. He’s not another Quinnen Williams, but he can be disruptive and he has some upside. He will get over-drafted because it’s such a bad year for interior linemen.
 

Deus Irae

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Which "pocket passers" have come in the league that deserved that praise but didn't get it?

NFL teams will spend a first on you (Rosen, Haskins) but pure pocket passers haven't exactly been tearing up the league. I think the issue is the prospects.

Which is a whole other story bc those guys just aren't the ones coming up through HS/College.

I'd also asked wheres Mac Jones upside? Sure he could improve on a few things but where is the upside? Let's play it out even further ... 49ers take him at 3. Can you envision him being better than Stafford, Murray or Wilson?

Anyone can answer if they want. I'd love to hear any genuine opinions.
I think my point was abundantly clear, and it was about the evaluators' notion about QBs who run, and not about specific QBs. If you want to tell me that QBA has a higher ceiling than QBB because he's a better thrower of the football, a better reader of defenses, or the like, go for it. If you want to tell me that he has the higher ceiling because he can run better, save that garbage for the RB position.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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TULSA LINEBACKER ZAVEN COLLINS

Defensive Coach No. 2:
He has some freaky stuff to him, but he has to be in a particular scheme like Philly, Indy, Minnesota or Dallas where he can stack and run and hit; he’s not the most physical guy. I know people compare him to Anthony Barr, but I think Barr was more fluid. You watch his film and he’s good in coverage, but I’m not sure how it’s gonna translate to our level. He’s so big; I’d be nervous if he’s out there one-on-one with (Christian) McCaffrey or a Tarik Cohen or someone like that. He plays high; not a thumper. He can chase plays down. I think his instincts are pretty good.

Defensive Coach No. 3: I like him a lot, but what are you looking for? Is he an outside linebacker? You can’t teach 6-4, 260 and moves like that. I think he’s an Anthony Barr-type player, but you better have a clear-cut vision for him. At 6-4 trying to play inside linebacker, it will be hard to get his pads down, and he’s not gonna run around people like he’s in Conference USA.

The way the league’s going now, the best middle linebackers, Devin White, Roquan Smith, Devin Bush, Pat Queen, Lavonte David, are all like 6 feet or shorter, and it’s such a space game now.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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I think my point was abundantly clear, and it was about the evaluators' notion about QBs who run, and not about specific QBs. If you want to tell me that QBA has a higher ceiling than QBB because he's a better thrower of the football, a better reader of defenses, or the like, go for it. If you want to tell me that he has the higher ceiling because he can run better, save that garbage for the RB position.
Agreed the fact the Lamar Jackson or Trevor Lawrence can run is just a part of their skill set. At least imo.
Upside-Ceiling are traits you can improve on. Hitting your peak so to speak in certain areas.

That's why I asked where is Mac Jones upside but it's ok I read enough. Wasn't being an ass I just get where you're coming from.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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NOTRE DAME LINEBACKER JEREMIAH OWUSU-KORAMOAH

Defensive Coach No. 3:
I ****ing love that guy. He’s an explosive athlete. You put on the film and he’s played nickel and he’s going after the football every time he makes a tackle. I think he’s more ready to play linebacker in the NFL than Isaiah Simmons was, but I think Arizona fell into that trap; asking him to do five, six, seven things before he gets good at one thing. I think even if this guy is only a cover guy, he’s gonna be so impactful as a coverage LB, and he’s gonna be a demon on special teams.

Defensive Coach No. 2: He moves like a good DB. Some teams will have him rated ahead of Parsons. He’s a specialty player. He’s a freak with his transitions and he’s physical. He’s a heat-seeking missile.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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SOUTH CAROLINA DEFENSIVE BACK JAYCEE HORN

Scout No. 2:
He’s a badass. He’s got great quickness. He loves to get physical. He’ll get too handsy, but I love how competitive he is. He’s the most talented corner in this class.

ALABAMA DEFENSIVE BACK PATRICK SURTAIN

Scout No. 1:
I love his intangibles. He’s wired as good as any DB. He’s a good technician. He has better ball skills than Marlon Humphrey but isn’t as good in press or as good a tackler.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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THE BEST OF THE REST

Scout No. 1 on Oregon OL Penei Sewell:
I think (Giants No. 4 overall pick in 2020) Andrew Thomas was better; Jedrick Wills (No. 10 to the Browns in 2020) was too. Sewell does not have great length. He can play everywhere but center and might be able to do that too. I think he can be an elite guard, not a great tackle.

Scout No. 2 on Northwestern OL Rashawn Slater: He has terrific feet. He’s good with his hands. I think he’s the most technically sound of the O-linemen. He doesn’t have the same physicality of Sewell, but I think he’s probably a safer pick and is more polished at this point.

Scout No. 1 on Alabama RB Najee Harris: He is a true three-down back. He has elite bend and elite hands. No running backs are great in protection, but he’s solid. He’s a smart kid but he overanalyzes things. He will train three times a day if you let him; he just needs to settle down.
 

captain stone

Hall of Fame Poster
I legit could not care about 99% of what draft analyst have to say. I really don't pay attention to mocks or reports. Justis is the best.
Athletic consensus big board is useful imo bc most are going by their sources mixed in with a few decent guys that could help in any draft room.


I stopped reading when I saw Landon Dickerson at #8 and Rashod Bateman at #9, ahead of Jamar Chase...
 

captain stone

Hall of Fame Poster
Agreed I couldn't imagine him playing full-time at edge but who knows, we'll see what teams have in mind. He carries it very well but 270 is huge. I guess that's about right if you're planning on giving him legit reps outside, not just blitzing him. Still though that's the plan though??

Where would you start him at first?

I would first try giving Collins some passing-down Weak-side/coverage responsibilities, and take it from there as a Hightower/KVN understudy...Don't think he's a full-time Rush DE like Wino, though he is clearly bigger than Wino is...
 

Palm Beach Pats Fan

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I don't see the value of The Atlantic aggregating 50 different mocks, when 45 of the 50 are pretty much an echo chamber for each other.
 

Palm Beach Pats Fan

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NOTRE DAME LINEBACKER JEREMIAH OWUSU-KORAMOAH

He’s gonna be so impactful as a coverage LB, and he’s gonna be a demon on special teams.

He’s a heat-seeking missile.

 
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