Belichick criticism mega-thread

[venecol]

Did you miss the second half?

 

[RobertWeathers]

The problem was dropping Bledsoe back 54 times and Martin getting eleven carries. That is on Perkins and Parcells.

CMart got banged up vs JAX in the AFCCG. Whether that played into his whopping touch count of 14 when he averaged 23 during the season is unknown.

GB had a dominant run D in 1996. They also had a dominant pass D. Might have been a pick your poison situation. Not sure.

 

[crawhammer]

Recruiters know what they are doing. There probably is some manipulation by a number of schools but the elite schools (top 15 or so) have been consistent for decades. No point in going to anything ranked less than that. Does that make me an elitist? I guess so. I wouldn't go to a school ranked less even if they gave a full scholarship.

Not to step into your mudslinging contest but you're abandoning hope and ambition for elitism? I hope you have 0 children.

 

[Tony2046]

I didn’t. It was a... top 5... half of football, IMO.

All offense.

 

[crawhammer]

This information pretty much supports what I was saying about Brady that he wasn't elite between 2001-2003. Look at the DVOA rankings. Other than 2019 where Brady played like crap (at least for him), the offense's three worst rankings were in 2001-2003 (in 2001 and 2003 by significant amounts). And the offense didn't crack the top ten in 2001 or 2003 and barely did in 2002. But the offense jumped to 3rd in 2004.

It also supports my assertion that in 2003 the defense carried the team and the offense was just average. The defense was ranked 2 while the offense was ranked 14.

But of course the DVOA is going to make a massive jump from Bledsoe to Brady. Bledsoe sucked in the Patriots' offense. You put any average QB who fit the Patriots' system and the DVOA would have improved. Maybe not nearly as much as it did with Brady, but it would have improved.

You understand Brady was the 199th pick of the draft? Fourth on the depth chart in 2000. He went from that to 14-3 and a Super Bowl title with a team that had been 5-13. He actually was MVP of the Super Bowl whether or not you think he deserved it. He also made the pro bowl in that first season as a starter, which counts for something.

You say "of course the DVOA is going to make a massive jump from Bledsoe to Brady" but if it was so obvious then Belichick would have been all over the QB change before the season started. By 2001 Bledsoe was a 10-year veteran so everyone knew what he was. Brady was an unknown and certainly NO ONE thought he was going to step in and account for a "massive jump" in the offensive production. But he did just that, and that's why the offensive DVOA increased so dramatically, and why the team was far more successful. That's the impact of Brady. Not Manning, or Favre, or "any average QB" as you put it.

I also never claimed the '01 defense wasn't very good. They did their part, as a unit. They wouldn't have won the Super Bowl without the defense. But they never would have even made the postseason without Mo Lewis. That one play at least expedited the QB change, and without the switch from Bledsoe to Brady at that point in the season, the offense doesn't get better, the DVOA doesn't improve, and the team is not winning 14 of their next 17 games.

You're not going to budge on the '03 season. Brady had some incredible game-winning drives/plays that season and you're basically ignoring all of them. He and the offense also bailed out the defense in the Super Bowl. The defense gave up 10 points in the last two minutes of the first half and they got completely smoked in the 4th quarter. I don't want to hear about injuries either... Brady threw for 505 in a Super Bowl without his #1 receiver and his #2 receiver going down after one catch. He also led the greatest comeback in Super Bowl history without Gronkowski.

 

[TheRainMaker]

CMart got banged up vs JAX in the AFCCG. Whether that played into his whopping touch count of 14 when he averaged 23 during the season is unknown.

GB had a dominant run D in 1996. They also had a dominant pass D. Might have been a pick your poison situation. Not sure.

Many people don't realize the 1996 Packers was a damn all star team. Pats put up a better fight than I expected.

 

[TheRainMaker]

I agree except for 2007, it should read Asante blew it. That game still sucks.

If you ever muster up the courage to re-watch the game again, you'll see there were numerous opportunities squandered by the Pats D. I think the Pats dropped 2 or 3 potential INT's on the first drive alone.

 

[Biffins]

2001- Pats D kept them in the game but needed Brady to win
2003- Pats D kept them in the game, fell apart, Brady won it
2004- Pats D kept them in the game, Brady did well, Pats D closed it out
2007- Pats D kept them in the game. Brady led an almost GW drive. D blew it.
2011- Pats D got tossed around. Settled down. Brady did well, got hurt. Had bad Q4, D came up short.
2014- Pats D got tossed around. Settled down. Brady led the comeback. Pats D closed it out
2016- Pats D got tossed around. Had great Q4. Brady led the comeback.
2017- Pats D got tossed around. Brady led the comeback. Pats D blew it.
2018- Pats D dominated the game, Brady contributed to GW drive.

There is no trend here.

It's a team game, gents. Coaches coach. Players play.

"Brady contributed to GW drive"

Brady contributed to the game winning drive like da Vinci contributed to the Mona Lisa.

 

[Rob0729]

You understand Brady was the 199th pick of the draft? Fourth on the depth chart in 2000. He went from that to 14-3 and a Super Bowl title with a team that had been 5-13. He actually was MVP of the Super Bowl whether or not you think he deserved it. He also made the pro bowl in that first season as a starter, which counts for something.

You say "of course the DVOA is going to make a massive jump from Bledsoe to Brady" but if it was so obvious then Belichick would have been all over the QB change before the season started. By 2001 Bledsoe was a 10-year veteran so everyone knew what he was. Brady was an unknown and certainly NO ONE thought he was going to step in and account for a "massive jump" in the offensive production. But he did just that, and that's why the offensive DVOA increased so dramatically, and why the team was far more successful. That's the impact of Brady. Not Manning, or Favre, or "any average QB" as you put it.

I also never claimed the '01 defense wasn't very good. They did their part, as a unit. They wouldn't have won the Super Bowl without the defense. But they never would have even made the postseason without Mo Lewis. That one play at least expedited the QB change, and without the switch from Bledsoe to Brady at that point in the season, the offense doesn't get better, the DVOA doesn't improve, and the team is not winning 14 of their next 17 games.

You're not going to budge on the '03 season. Brady had some incredible game-winning drives/plays that season and you're basically ignoring all of them. He and the offense also bailed out the defense in the Super Bowl. The defense gave up 10 points in the last two minutes of the first half and they got completely smoked in the 4th quarter. I don't want to hear about injuries either... Brady threw for 505 in a Super Bowl without his #1 receiver and his #2 receiver going down after one catch. He also led the greatest comeback in Super Bowl history without Gronkowski.

I said of course the DVOA is going to make a massive QB because in 2001 Brady was a good, not great or elite, QB who could run the Pats' system. Bledsoe was a very talented QB, but his talents made him an awful QB for the Pats' system. Problem with Bledsoe is that he needs to drop five to seven steps and watch the play develop and the Pats ran a timing offense where a QB needs a quick release and throw in tight windows. That wasn't Bledsoe.

And I agree without the Mo Lewis hit, the Pats don't go to the Super Bowl. But that has more to do with getting Bledsoe out of the line up and less to do with Brady than you are willing to admit.

And why would I budge on 2003? You provided evidence that I am right. I wasn't the one who posted the DVOA that said the defense was the second best in the league and the offense was just average at 14. You did. And you are overrating the Pats scoring last in a lot of close games in 2003. Other than the Super Bowl they were last minute clutch drives. I mean one of them was in overtime on the Pats' third possession in that overtime. That isn't a clutch last second win, that is scoring last in sudden death.

 

[Rob0729]

When that one game is whether that team is remembered as champions it sure as hell does. And considering I HIGHLY DOUBT that you would have went page after page moaning about the 2003 defensive ranking if they weren't one of the Super Bowl seasons we had, I'd say it matters alot that in the most important moment, they got bailed out because their QB put out an amazing performance while they were getting eviscerated by NFL legend Jake Delhomme.

The 2003 Patriots defensive perfromance in the Super Bowl is the 8th worst out of 9 appearances in the Brady/Belichick era. Only outdone by the 17 Eagles game. So yeah it matters alot who got them the ring in the end. Especially when that guy was getting 8 MVP votes throwing to Deion Branch.

Brady had a really good fourth quarter and final drive, but you do realize Brady intercepted in the fourth quarter on a drive would have probably put the game away. Let's not pretend he had a perfect game. Both the offense and defense (and the special teams too) made costly mistakes in that game and would have been blamed if the Pats lost. And both sides of the ball had periods of awesome play.

But at least we can agree. Brady wasn't elite in 2003. Just in that Super Bowl.

 

[RobertWeathers]

"Brady contributed to GW drive"

Brady contributed to the game winning drive like da Vinci contributed to the Mona Lisa.

Hypersensitive. Christ.

 

[PatsWSB47]

I said of course the DVOA is going to make a massive QB because in 2001 Brady was a good, not great or elite, QB who could run the Pats' system. Bledsoe was a very talented QB, but his talents made him an awful QB for the Pats' system. Problem with Bledsoe is that he needs to drop five to seven steps and watch the play develop and the Pats ran a timing offense where a QB needs a quick release and throw in tight windows. That wasn't Bledsoe.

And I agree without the Mo Lewis hit, the Pats don't go to the Super Bowl. But that has more to do with getting Bledsoe out of the line up and less to do with Brady than you are willing to admit.

And why would I budge on 2003? You provided evidence that I am right. I wasn't the one who posted the DVOA that said the defense was the second best in the league and the offense was just average at 14. You did. And you are overrating the Pats scoring last in a lot of close games in 2003. Other than the Super Bowl they were last minute clutch drives. I mean one of them was in overtime on the Pats' third possession in that overtime. That isn't a clutch last second win, that is scoring last in sudden death.

Please give us your definition of elite. What exactly makes up an elite quarterback?

 

[203Pat]

Josh was a Personnel Assistant in 2001.

And?

 

[sb1]

One game (even the Super Bowl) doesn't make it a 50-50 split. And the defense held up for 3 quarters...and only really started to fall apart when they lost Harrison and then Wilson. That offense was not good enough to get to the Super Bowl without that elite defense. So it is more a 70-30 split in favor of the defense.

I would hope so.... Delhomme is the worst QB the Pats have faced in a Super Bowl, even worse than Foles.

Could be mistaken but wasn't it Wilson that got smoked by Mushin Muhammad?

 

[RobertWeathers]

I would hope so. Delhomme is the worst QB the Pats have faced in a Super Bowl, even worse than Foles.

Could be mistaken but wasn't it Wilson that got smoked by Mushin Muhammad?

Wilson or Poole.

 

[Joker]

Many people don't realize the 1996 Packers was a damn all star team. Pats put up a better fight than I expected.

Max Lane put up a fight in that game? Oh right...I forgot.Max Land DID fight hard...to get up off the turf after being ragdolled one-handed by Reggie White....over and over and over and over. Todd Rucci would have rushed to help his best buddy linemate but he was always 6 to 8 yards in the Pats backfield on both pass plays and straight ahead dives in the A gap. What fighters!!!

 

[RobertWeathers]

Max Lane put up a fight in that game? Oh right...I forgot.Max Land DID fight hard...to get up off the turf after being ragdolled one-handed by Reggie White....over and over and over and over. Todd Rucci would have rushed to help his best buddy linemate but he was always 6 to 8 yards in the Pats backfield on both pass plays and straight ahead dives in the A gap. What fighters!!!

What Reggie did to poor Max in that 4th qtr....

The reality is when the DL GOAT faces a 6th rd pick not named Brady...these things tend to happen.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Max Lane put up a fight in that game? Oh right...I forgot.Max Land DID fight hard...to get up off the turf after being ragdolled one-handed by Reggie White....over and over and over and over. Todd Rucci would have rushed to help his best buddy linemate but he was always 6 to 8 yards in the Pats backfield on both pass plays and straight ahead dives in the A gap. What fighters!!!

The game was certainly in reach until the Howard kickoff return for a touchdown. Then White took over.

Wilson or Poole.

I think it was Poole.

 

[Joker]

The game was certainly in reach until the Howard kickoff return for a touchdown. Then White took over.


I think it was Poole.

not to belabor the point but..EVERY game is "in reach" until it isn't. I admire your optimism. Myself, having already given Rucci and Lane the benefit of the doubt all season, I was past done with the two sluggards by the Super Bowl and went into that game pessimistic as I've ever been The twin doofi did not disappoint. You do realize that Drewpy got both those stiffs the biggest O line contracts in guaranteed money in Patriot history. Think about this....after that Super Bowl, the twin stiffs were cut and NEVER picked up by any other NFL team.Rucci in 1999 Lane in 2000.I still bristle at their memory. Friggin' Drewpy's "buddies". No wonder BB cleaned house and started Brady when he took over

 

[TheRainMaker]

not to belabor the point but..EVERY game is "in reach" until it isn't. I admire your optimism. Myself, having already given Rucci and Lane the benefit of the doubt all season, I was past done with the two sluggards by the Super Bowl and went into that game pessimistic as I've ever been The twin doofi did not disappoint. You do realize that Drewpy got both those stiffs the biggest O line contracts in guaranteed money in Patriot history. Think about this....after that Super Bowl, the twin stiffs were cut and NEVER picked up by any other NFL team.Rucci in 1999 Lane in 2000.I still bristle at their memory. Friggin' Drewpy's "buddies". No wonder BB cleaned house and started Brady when he took over

I thought they had no shot vs the Packers as I stated previously they were an all star team. Yeah I remember those contracts. They were way overpaid and got worse each year until Bill pulled the plug.