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Debate Brady vs Belichick?

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TBD. We’re in the process of rebuilding so too early to tell what bb can really do without Brady. Also has no qb, understand we will not find another Brady but no coach should be expected to win with cam right now.

We”ll know a lot more 2-3 years down the road on both ends. Brady has made Tampa better but that’s about all, it’s very unlikely he actually wins a ring there or something that would clinch the debate. To me it’s always been 50/50 ish, id predict that if neither had one another theyd each have around 3 rings each over 20 yrs.
 
TBD. We’re in the process of rebuilding so too early to tell what bb can really do without Brady. Also has no qb, understand we will not find another Brady but no coach should be expected to win with cam right now.

We”ll know a lot more 2-3 years down the road on both ends. Brady has made Tampa better but that’s about all, it’s very unlikely he actually wins a ring there or something that would clinch the debate. To me it’s always been 50/50 ish, id predict that if neither had one another theyd each have around 3 rings each over 20 yrs.
The debate will not be decided on how Brady does in Tampa given he is 43 but more how Bill does without Tom. So far the returns are not in Bill's favor given we are 6-8 and likely to finish 7-9. I do think we need another 2-3 years and let Bill try to the rebuild before any final conclusions. But 8 seasons without Brady and Bill is sub .500 and his first full season without Brady on the roster and he is sub .500. Those are the facts right now.
 
Because Cam cant get the ball to White or Edelman and Brady could. Cam is starving these guys out.

White 107 yds and 2 TDs.
Edelman has 0 TDs.

Brady would have this team in the post season because Meyers is better in his 2nd season and Byrd is as good if not better than Dorsett. Moncrieff was showing promise. Harris is way better than Sony.
Not having JE11 for Tom to throw to is a death blow. Full stop.

...and with a D giving up a TD more a game?

Good luck.
 
Surprised at the premise of this thread. I think what's going on now actually demonstrates exactly what we thought.

Brady has obviously been elite, among the greatest of all time. If the Pats finish 7-9, he alone would have been worth 3-4 wins, meaning 10-6 or 11-5. Sounds about right.

Belichick is a great coach, among the greatest of all time. Tons of examples to illustrate it. If he was coach of Tampa Bay, they'd be Super Bowl favorites. As it is, they'll make the playoffs but don't appear to be Super Bowl caliber, due to poor coaching. Sounds about right.

What exactly is the question?
 
The debate will not be decided on how Brady does in Tampa given he is 43 but more how Bill does without Tom. So far the returns are not in Bill's favor given we are 6-8 and likely to finish 7-9. I do think we need another 2-3 years and let Bill try to the rebuild before any final conclusions. But 8 seasons without Brady and Bill is sub .500 and his first full season without Brady on the roster and he is sub .500. Those are the facts right now.
Agree. Give him some time to turn this thing around. We have some good pieces currently but the lack of a QB coupled with a weak front 7 on defense has been our downfall.
 
I think you are doing a great disservice to Bill AND the game of football in this mindless comparison thing that people are now watching. Not withstanding that Brady is the GOAT at his position the fact remains that Brady could only affect about 15 players on offense, while Bill had an impact on all 53+ as well as personnel decisions. As great as Brady was, his impact on the Patriots was not nearly as large as Bills. Just one player playing one role on one side of the field.

BILL is te major reason that we have 6 titles and 9 superbowl appearances. Because FOOTBALL is a game where the T E A M truly IS greater than the individual player, even when that player is playing the most important position on the field. An single great player CAN truly affect a basketball team or a hockey team but there have been plenty of great individual players in the game of football who never sniffed playing on a great team.

Peyton Manning came into the league with great talent and was put in a situation where he had everything going for him. Playing in a dome, rules designed to enhance is team's offensive style, etc. And while Manning did win 2 titles, NEITHER was achieved because of anthing he did. It was only because the Pats ran out of gas in the over heated dome in Indy (and a few VERY questionable calls)that he got into the big game. And with Denver that last year, he was only there to manage the game. He was just along for the ride, riding the coattails of a great defense and a great RB.

The point is that even the best of QB's are hard pressed to carry their teams to championships. And although Brady was the GOAT playing the most important individual position in the game, he was STILL only O N E player.

Shame that its become low hanging fruit to blame Bill for 20 years of winning football and credit Tommy with all the credit. The mediots will be all over this narrative to get even for 20 yrs of him not being Bill Parcells (who IS in the great self promoters HOF, and NOT, thankfully, in the Pats HOF ) But that's another argument and another time.

And lets not forget that Tom's first year he WASN'T the GOAT. He was just a solid "game manager" In fact Tom didn't have his first 4000 yd season until 2005. Brady's place here was a miraculous piece of good fortune because he landed in a place that valued his limited skills. A place that valued his football processing skills over his athletic skills and designed an offense FOR those skills. BB saw how competitive Tom was, and how dedicated he was to being great. He also was patient enough to wait the 5 years (though winning 3 superbowls made it easier ) before he was ready to become the prolific passer we all now expect. Tom very easily could have been put into a system that saw him as the capable back up he was projected to be.

I have more about the narrative that BB didn't have a post Brady plan but I have damned errands to run.
 
The Brady has done this crowd makes me smile. What has he really done with TB besides beat Green Bay? Got embarrassed by the Saints twice. He was brought in to beat the Saints. He chose his destination with the best wr core in the nfl combined. He’s been good but not special.

They were a special coach qb pairing. Ala Montana Walsh and many others. Its just BB and Brady were the best of the best. And btw, if BB got to pick to go to TB he would of made a game plan to slow down the Saints enough for Brady to score more points than the other team, that’s how it worked so well for both of them.
Was Walsh a better coach than Montana was a QB?
Payton better than Brees?
Reid better than McNabb or Mahomes?
Carroll better than Wilson?
McCarthy better than Rodgers?
Cowher or Triplin than Big Ben?
Dungy or Caldwell than PEDton?
Martz than Warner?
Holmgren than Favre?
Shanahan than Elway?
IMO it's about the players. There are plenty of teams who've been successful without top coaches, but very few who had success without top players, either on offense or defense. Lovie Smith and Rex Grossman made it to a SB for crying out loud.
 
Was Walsh a better coach than Montana was a QB?
Payton better than Brees?
Reid better than McNabb or Mahomes?
Carroll better than Wilson?
McCarthy better than Rodgers?
Cowher or Triplin than Big Ben?
Dungy or Caldwell than PEDton?
Martz than Warner?
Holmgren than Favre?
Shanahan than Elway?
IMO it's about the players. There are plenty of teams who've been successful without top coaches, but very few who had success without top players, either on offense or defense. Lovie Smith and Rex Grossman made it to a SB for crying out loud.
I would put Joe Gibbs at the top if we are judging success about winning without elite/great QBs. He won 3 SBs with average to below average QBs.
 
I would put Joe Gibbs at the top if we are judging success about winning without elite/great QBs. He won 3 SBs with average to below average QBs.
He also had one of the best teams of all time to not have an elite QB
 
He also had one of the best teams of all time to not have an elite QB
Eh. Not in 1982 or 1987. Yes for 1991. The teams he beat, the niners and the giants were also very talented.
 
At least he didn’t go full Tom Jackson with his baseless claim that the players hate their coach. I’m of the opinion that BB is still engaged, just outmanned personnel wise. Team is still showing fight.

I've felt this way for a while now, but I feel that Bill just considers this year a throw-away year due to all the opt-outs, covid, and salary cap limitations. If Bill does not right the ship in 2021, then maybe he truly is thinking about retirement.
 
I've felt this way for a while now, but I feel that Bill just considers this year a throw-away year due to all the opt-outs, covid, and salary cap limitations. If Bill does not right the ship in 2021, then maybe he truly is thinking about retirement.
He totally is. He basically stated it in a presser earlier this year.
 
DA isn't on the 2020 Patriots.
True. But you are missing the bigger point. No Edelman, No Gronk and Brady beat the best pass defense in the NFL in the AFCCG with Danny Amendola and a ripped up thumb.
 
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